Richard Dawkins - "Abort it, try again".

[etrigan420]

A very 'conservative' argument there.

...but think of all the Reichsmarks you'd save!!!1

 

[alzan]

http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1911789

This really isn't about Dawkins as much as it is about the "morality" behind keeing an Downs child. I agree with the logic about the end (reducing the suffering in the world), but the means (aborting Downs fetustes) is questionable.

Interestingly, this is a statement from the Downs Syndrome Association in response:

Personally, if someone asked for my advice on such a deeply emotional and personal decision, I'd refer them to a medical professional and would withhold my personal advice.

A decision that should ultimately be left to the parents who may or may not share the same morals as Mr. Dawkins. However as I stated earlier the woman in question did ask Mr. Dawkins his opinion and he gave it. Statements made by you that he should deactivate his Twitter account or that he's "idiotic" are pointless and take away from the discussion.

 

[Retro Rob]

Statements made by you that he should deactivate his Twitter account or that he's "idiotic" are pointless and take away from the discussion.

If they "take away for the discussion", then why are you responding to it?

You do know that by responding to it, you're giving it more publicity.

 

[Oldgamer]

The "Pro-life " crowd can never seem to decide if a baby is a blessing or a burden. Of course, it's a blessing in the womb, but once it's out... they're not paying for it, that's for sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM


“Why is it that most people who are against abortion are people who you wouldn’t want to fuck in the first place?

Boy these conservatives are really something, aren’t they? They are all in favor of the unborn, and they will do anything for the unborn, but once you’re born you are on your own!

If your pre-born your fine, if your pre-school your fucked!”

George Carlin

 

[bshole]

As the father of a newborn child, I have to say I really don't know what we would have done had he had Down's Syndrome, and we knew about it early. I feel tremendously lucky that wasn't a decision I had to make.

I have a brother with Down' syndrome. He is by far the happiest of all my brothers. He also has a tremendous amount of love and absolutely no malice. That being said, he is a burden and is getting more burdensome with age. My parents are now in their 70s and it is difficult for them to care for my brother as their own health begins to fade. It is an incredibly difficult choice to make.

Old Gamer,
You speak the truth. LOL!

 

[Oldgamer]

I have a brother with Down' syndrome. He is by far the happiest of all my brothers. He also has a tremendous amount of love and absolutely no malice. That being said, he is a burden and is getting more burdensome with age. My parents are now in their 70s and it is difficult for them to care for my brother as their own health begins to fade. It is an incredibly difficult choice to make.

Old Gamer,
You speak the truth. LOL!

I help care for a loved one who has many severe disabilities and it is very very hard on a family and the means to care for said individuals is getting more costly by the year. I don't hold any grudges against any couple or any woman deciding to abort a fetus that has been confirmed with any type of malformation or possible birth defects like this.

 

[alzan]

If they "take away for the discussion", then why are you responding to it?

You do know that by responding to it, you're giving it more publicity.

Oh good, Nehalem logic.

I've given you credit for more intelligence than you're currently displaying, please don't prove me wrong.

Had you not made the comments there wouldn't be publicity, no?

 

[Retro Rob]

Oh good, Nehalem logic.

I've given you credit for more intelligence than you're currently displaying, please don't prove me wrong.

Had you not made the comments there wouldn't be publicity, no?

Point understood.

Got anything relevant to the morality behind keeping a Down's fetus? What's your view on the morality behind it?

 

[alzan]

Point understood.

Got anything relevant to the morality behind keeping a Down's fetus? What's your view on the morality behind it?

As I stated in my original post it's a decision for the parent(s) involved, not for society. We all have differences in the morals we hold dear, as long as a person's morals do not run afoul of societies laws I'm mostly fine with the differences.

In a hypothetical where myself and my wife were the parents-to-be for a Downs baby we'd have to consider many other factors: possible other genetic conditions, my wife's age and health, finances, child-rearing concerns, possible strain on the marriage relationship, etc. Had this been the situation when we married my decision would have been to abort; my wife and I were married in our late thirties/early forties, having a child at that age is risky enough to begin with let alone a Downs baby.

 

[Retro Rob]

As I stated in my original post it's a decision for the parent(s) involved, not for society.

Wonderful. But I didn't ask you whose decision it is, I asked you about how you view the morality behind such a decision.

In a hypothetical where myself and my wife were the parents-to-be for a Downs baby we'd have to consider many other factors: possible other genetic conditions, my wife's age and health, finances, child-rearing concerns, possible strain on the marriage relationship, etc. Had this been the situation when we married my decision would have been to abort; my wife and I were married in our late thirties/early forties, having a child at that age is risky enough to begin with let alone a Downs baby.

I sincerely appreciate this, as these are factors that we would consider as well, but back to my question (which you seem reluctant to address), do you think its moral or immoral to keep such a child?

Why or why not?

 

[Vic]

My opinion is that it is immoral to force someone else to bring a severely disabled child into the world, especially when you have no intention of helping them to pay or care for the child.

 

[alzan]

Wonderful. But I didn't ask you whose decision it is, I asked you about how you view the morality behind such a decision.

I sincerely appreciate this, as these are factors that we would consider as well, but back to my question (which you seem reluctant to address), do you think its moral or immoral to keep such a child?

Why or why not?

I've answered your question a couple of times, perhaps you are unwilling to acknowledge it. I would say it's up to the parent(s) according to their/her moral code.

Since we have the medical technology and understanding to determine Downs or other genetic maladies in the womb I can only answer that question from a historical but still hypothetical perspective: in the past had I been married to the same woman and she gave birth to a Downs baby we would have kept the baby and raised him/her to the best of our ability.

 

[witeken]

The problem is that killing a child to save them from Down syndrome is monstrous. Killing anyone so that we need not be troubled by their affliction is monstrous.

A child that isn't even born...

And what about all children that are not created? Is it monstrous not to create a child every time you have the opportunity to do so? This is not a joke, for example the one-child policy of China, which reduced the population by 400 million (compared to if China didn't make that policy) by not letting people make more than 1 child, so they would have less children than they would otherwise have had. Did China do a wrong thing? Did China commit murder of 400 million people?

You can also inverse the question: is it monstrous to consciously make a person with Down syndrome? What about the person with the Down syndrome itself? Would he prefer or like to have the Down syndrome if he has the choice?

From Wikipedia: "The average IQ of a young adult with Down syndrome is 50, equivalent to the mental age of an 8- or 9-year-old child, but this varies widely."

 

[MrColin]

eugenisis FTW.

 

[HumblePie]

As the father of a newborn child, I have to say I really don't know what we would have done had he had Down's Syndrome, and we knew about it early. I feel tremendously lucky that wasn't a decision I had to make.

Thinking the same thing as a father of a 1 month old now.

 

[nehalem256]

“Why is it that most people who are against abortion are people who you wouldn’t want to fuck in the first place?

Really?

Sarah Palin vs. Hilary Clinton.

Who is more fuckable? :hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

As the father of a newborn child, I have to say I really don't know what we would have done had he had Down's Syndrome, and we knew about it early. I feel tremendously lucky that wasn't a decision I had to make.

Which points out exactly why society needs societal agreed upon ethics.

Why in the world is it a good idea to allow individuals to come to their decisions on what is right and wrong when they are emotionally vulnerable?

 

[HumblePie]

Which points out exactly why society needs societal agreed upon ethics.

Why in the world is it a good idea to allow individuals to come to their decisions on what is right and wrong when they are emotionally vulnerable?

Sure, we can just make sex illegal and procreation only allowed through government permitted instances in a lab. Then we can all enjoy the following:

 

[nehalem256]

My opinion is that it is immoral to force someone else to bring a severely disabled child into the world, especially when you have no intention of helping them to pay or care for the child.

Is it immoral to bring a severely disabled child into the world and pass millions of dollars in care costs onto others?

That is the question that Dawkins is asking. And what he was skewered for.

What is your opinion on that subject?

A question for the anti-abortion Christians -- How would you feel about a special tax increase levied only against devout Christians that could be used to pay for the high costs of caring for Down Syndrome babies (and crack babies, etc.) throughout their entire lives?

I don't know why you are blaming the backlash against Dawkins on anti-abortion Christians. Im pretty sure that the reason Dawkins has felt the need to apologize is because he is receiving a backlash from pro-choice people as well.

Also, I think it would be rather fun to go down the road you propose.

Make conservatives pay for down syndrome babies that aren't aborted.

Then make liberals pay for all the single mothers!

Considering the incredible discrepancy between down syndrome babies vs. bastard kids seems like a massive win for conservatives in paying lower taxes.

 

[nehalem256]

Sure, we can just make sex illegal and procreation only allowed through government permitted instances in a lab. Then we can all enjoy the following:

Not sure how you get that from what I said.

For one what I said goes beyond just potential down syndrome babies, but also extends to things such as end of life medical treatment.

 

[HumblePie]

Not sure how you get that from what I said.

For one what I said goes beyond just potential down syndrome babies, but also extends to things such as end of life medical treatment.

If you have trouble understanding how I could get a point of future dystopia reference from the movie Demolition Man from what you said... you need some help man.

 

[IBMer]

It has to be a severe mind fuck to all the Pro-Lifers when the body naturally aborts a conception that results in severe genetic mutation. Did God cause that abortion?

 

[nehalem256]

It has to be a severe mind fuck to all the Pro-Lifers when the body naturally aborts a conception that results in severe genetic mutation. Did God cause that abortion?

So your argument is that since some fetuses die of natural causes its okay to purposefully kill them?

Congratulations you just rationalized all murder :thumbsup:

 

[IBMer]

Yes its very logical to jump to that conclusion Nehalem. You win this argument!

 

[HamburgerBoy]

So your argument is that since some fetuses die of natural causes its okay to purposefully kill them?

Congratulations you just rationalized all murder :thumbsup:

No, it's the argument of many anti-abortionists that once a sperm fertilizes a cell, it constitutes a new human life deserving of the protections afforded to a developed and independent human being. I think the point is that we obviously don't stress out over two-week miscarriages or similar because they are very common, so why bother protecting them?