Rich-Poor income gap growing

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_re_us/income_gap

The report by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and the Economic Policy Institute, both liberal-leaning think tanks, found the incomes of the poorest 20 percent of families nationally grew by an average of $2,660, or 19 percent, over the past 20 years. Meanwhile, the incomes of the richest fifth of families grew by $45,100, or nearly 59 percent, the study by the Washington-based groups said.

Families in the middle fifth saw their incomes rise 28 percent, or $10,218.

The figures, based on U.S. Census data, compare the average growth from 1980-82 to 2001-03, after adjusting for inflation.

The poorest one-fifth of families, the report said, had an average income of $16,780 from 2000-03, while the top fifth of families had an average income of $122,150 ? more than seven times as much. Middle-income families' average income was $46,875.

So the rich are getting richer. BUT, the poor aren't getting poorer. Let me make that clear, as the poor have it so much easier today than they did 30+ years ago.

Looks like everything is going according to plan. Soon we won't even need to institute a birthright-type caste system. All that remains to be done is to completely eliminate opportunities for higher education for the poor.

Why don't you give up your education to the poor right now?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Meuge

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060127/ap_on_re_us/income_gap

The report by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities and the Economic Policy Institute, both liberal-leaning think tanks, found the incomes of the poorest 20 percent of families nationally grew by an average of $2,660, or 19 percent, over the past 20 years. Meanwhile, the incomes of the richest fifth of families grew by $45,100, or nearly 59 percent, the study by the Washington-based groups said.

Families in the middle fifth saw their incomes rise 28 percent, or $10,218.

The figures, based on U.S. Census data, compare the average growth from 1980-82 to 2001-03, after adjusting for inflation.

The poorest one-fifth of families, the report said, had an average income of $16,780 from 2000-03, while the top fifth of families had an average income of $122,150 ? more than seven times as much. Middle-income families' average income was $46,875.

So the rich are getting richer. BUT, the poor aren't getting poorer. Let me make that clear, as the poor have it so much easier today than they did 30+ years ago.

Looks like everything is going according to plan. Soon we won't even need to institute a birthright-type caste system. All that remains to be done is to completely eliminate opportunities for higher education for the poor.

Why don't you give up your education to the poor right now?

Some people cannot be educated.

 

[her209]

Let me get this straight:

Poorest 5th
0.19A = $2,660
A = $14,000 (20 years ago)
A + 2,660 = $16,660 (now)

$16,660 = $14,000 * (1 + D/100)^20
1.19 = (1 + D/100)^20
1.19^0.05 = 1 + D/100
1.00874 = 1 + D/100
0.00874 = D/100
0.874% growth per year


Richest 5th
0.59B = $45,100
B = $76,440 (20 years ago)
B + $45,100 = $121,540 (now)

$121,540 = $76,440 * (1 + E/100)^20
1.59 = (1 + E/100)^20
1.59^0.05 = 1 + E/100
1.02346 = 1 + E/100
0.02346 = E/100
2.346% growth per year


Middle 5th
0.28C = $10,218
C = $36,492 (20 years ago)
C + $10,218 = $46,710 (now)

$46,710 = $36,492 * (1 + F/100)^20
1.28 = (1 + F/100)^20
1.28^0.05 = 1 + F/100
1.01242 = 1 + F/100
0.01242 = F/100
1.242% growth per year

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Some people cannot be educated.

I disagree there. I think a lot of people believe they can't be educated or they just cannot delay consumption long enough to get educated i.e. they can't bring themselves to delay income long enough.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: RichardE

Some people cannot be educated.

I disagree there. I think a lot of people believe they can't be educated or they just cannot delay consumption long enough to get educated i.e. they can't bring themselves to delay income long enough.

When the poor get ready they will kill the rich and the goose that laid the golden egg. Unfortunately the rich are too stupid to delay their income long enough to build a civilization that can survive.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: mect

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: ntdz
Can you show me a point in the last 100 years when the income gap WASN'T growing please?

Sure thing, but like normal you'll probably ignore it. See figure 1. Income gap dropped from 1947-1968. It may or may not have been dropping before/during the war, but I've never looked for data earlier than that.

Heck, there weren't near as many 2 income families in that 47 to 68 time period as there are now either.

Very true, but I think this is just a natural economic adjustment. If you increase the supply of something, the cost goes down. I think that works with labor as well. As more of the population seek jobs, those jobs will go for a lower salary.

Well, it should've at least raised the income of the masses enough to at least STOP the widening income disparity, but it hasn't. Instead we even give dependant care tax breaks so the women can work.

Seems like a rigged game to me??

 

[Zebo]

Rich-Poor income gap growing

All by design since 1975. Started with the SUN PAC decsion which allowed undemocratic corporations to give limitless amounts to campains - thus both parties are totally co-opted and implement laws which hurt the worker and helps the investor/capitalist class. They got taxes slashed/NAFTA/GATT/minimum wage practically frozen/unions marginalized/cut programs where the little guy can compete with them from SBA to farm aid - list goes on forever where they oppose virtually all the New Deal tried and suceeding in doing to improve wages and working conditions of ordinary americans.

The period from the late forties into the early seventies was the "golden age" of the United States. In those days, a single wage earner could support an entire family on his wages. I know my dad did it as a truck driver with 8 people to support. Anyone that grew up then, will tell you that life was good. I doubt we'll ever return.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: RichardE
People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

No it is not in everyone's power to avoid poverty.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: RichardE

Some people cannot be educated.

I disagree there. I think a lot of people believe they can't be educated or they just cannot delay consumption long enough to get educated i.e. they can't bring themselves to delay income long enough.

Everyone can be educated to some extent, but for people with limited abilities, to a limited extent.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: BlancoNino
So the rich are getting richer. BUT, the poor aren't getting poorer. Let me make that clear, as the poor have it so much easier today than they did 30+ years ago.

Wouldn't it be ideal if they all grew richer at roughly the same rate?

Perhaps infinite earnings for everyone would be ideal; then again perhaps not. If you mean ideal given actual constraints then requiring an increase in equality should imply less total growth. It would be an arbitrary requirement so I can't see how it would be "ideal".

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: RichardE

Some people cannot be educated.

I disagree there. I think a lot of people believe they can't be educated or they just cannot delay consumption long enough to get educated i.e. they can't bring themselves to delay income long enough.

Everyone can be educated to some extent, but for people with limited abilities, to a limited extent.

Are their abilities really limited or do they just tell themselves that?

I think almost any adult (excepting mentally handicapped of course) can get an education.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: conjur
Yeah! We're turning into Brazil and headed into Argentina! Yippee!!

BTW, wonder how things would look when healthcare and energy costs were factored in, esp. given the poor pay a much larger % of their take-home pay for those two.

Bingo.

However you also need to add in housing costs into that as well. When combined, someone in the bottom of the income scale could easily end up paying over 50% of their income just for housing costs. Now add cost of food. Ever since gas prices shot up so have grocery prices. Not only grocery but other general goods as well. I personally don't see these prices drop with the price of fuel but then again I only see what I personally see at the grocery store. So its hardly definitive. Anyone else see the same thing?

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I have a feeling investments are making this change increase. People in the middle and upper brackets have disposable income they can put into investments such as bonds, stocks, and property that may pay income on a yearly basis and increase their bottom line. Where the poor obviously lack this disposable income and are left behind.

That's a very good point. Even those who earn well above the minimum wage tend not to save unless they are a couple (speaking from experience) and only because you have more disposable income as a couple then you do living on your own.

I think it has to do with job security. There really is no job security and I think this heavily influences people who only have a small amount of disposable income (still well above minimum wage but still in the poor bracket and are not willing to tie down what tiny safety net they have in case they loose their job. eg. $12/hr as opposed to minimum wage of roughly $7.45/hr.

Keep in mind I'm Canadian and what I said is based on my experience in Canada.

 

[imported_Aelius]

Originally posted by: RichardE
People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

That's total BS and I speak from experience. It may be true of some people but this sort of sweeping statement is exactly what is wrong with people's thinking about poverty. Especially when they haven't been there or they got lucky in life.

 

[Zebo]

People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

You must be a child come back in 20 years after you seen some life. Many things are beyond ones control.. By then you should see some dramatic cases like few iraq war vets screaming to themselves in iraqi like they have terets or something digging though garbage cans. Or old ladies who worked and planned but had thier annuities whipped out by Enron and other crooks like em'. Literally 100's of other examples but I think you get my point.


Also being rich or poor is mainly about market position not hard work or decisons one makes. Generally speaking: This is why upper class kids stay that way and lower class kids ones stay that way too. The hardest work is actually done by people whose market position makes their daily wage quite minimal, the working poor.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Are their abilities really limited or do they just tell themselves that?

I think almost any adult (excepting mentally handicapped of course) can get an education.

Their abilities are really limited. No-one has unlimited abilities. But I agree almost any adult will be able to get a basic education.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: RichardE
People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

That's total BS and I speak from experience. It may be true of some people but this sort of sweeping statement is exactly what is wrong with people's thinking about poverty. Especially when they haven't been there or they got lucky in life.

That may be true about 3rd world countries where people have no opportunities, but honestly if you are living in the U.S. and you are in poverty and you haven't just gotten off the boat, that is going to be most likely decisions you made.

My girlfriend is from Mexico and her parents immigrated here (legally) when she was 9. Her mom works as a housekeeper for a hotel and her dad works as a carpenter. They have 4 children including my girlfriend. Her older brother and sister already graduated from college. Her brother has a degree in mechanical engineering and her sister got a degree in biology. My girlfriend herself is in college now also, so she will be the third to get a degree. And her younger brother is going to transfer in about a year.

So two of them already have degrees and two of them are on their way towards getting a degree.

I've been to her parent's house. They live in a ghetto part of town and these people do not have a lot of money. But they obviously raised their kids to be responsible and value education. And this has absolutely nothing to do with luck. Her parents are very thrifty with their money and instilled educational values upon all of them.

This is the land of opportunity. If you don't do it here you won't do it anywhere under any circumstances.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Are their abilities really limited or do they just tell themselves that?

I think almost any adult (excepting mentally handicapped of course) can get an education.

Their abilities are really limited. No-one has unlimited abilities. But I agree almost any adult will be able to get a basic education.

I never said that there are people with unlimited abilities. I don't know where you got that from.

I mean anyone with an IQ of at least 90 can get an education. And I am talking about some degree in science or engineering.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: RichardE
People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

That's total BS and I speak from experience. It may be true of some people but this sort of sweeping statement is exactly what is wrong with people's thinking about poverty. Especially when they haven't been there or they got lucky in life.

That may be true about 3rd world countries where people have no opportunities, but honestly if you are living in the U.S. and you are in poverty and you haven't just gotten off the boat, that is going to be most likely decisions you made.

My girlfriend is from Mexico and her parents immigrated here (legally) when she was 9. Her mom works as a housekeeper for a hotel and her dad works as a carpenter. They have 4 children including my girlfriend. Her older brother and sister already graduated from college. Her brother has a degree in mechanical engineering and her sister got a degree in biology. My girlfriend herself is in college now also, so she will be the third to get a degree. And her younger brother is going to transfer in about a year.

So two of them already have degrees and two of them are on their way towards getting a degree.

I've been to her parent's house. They live in a ghetto part of town and these people do not have a lot of money. But they obviously raised their kids to be responsible and value education. And this has absolutely nothing to do with luck. Her parents are very thrifty with their money and instilled educational values upon all of them.

This is the land of opportunity. If you don't do it here you won't do it anywhere under any circumstances.

Please, use your hallowed degree to think!! If everyone single person in this country had a degree some of them will still have to dig ditches, clean toilets, etc. Those are the people who are getting the short end of the stick.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Zebo

People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

You must be a child come back in 20 years after you seen some life. Many things are beyond ones control.. By then you should see some dramatic cases like few iraq war vets screaming to themselves in iraqi like they have terets or something digging though garbage cans. Or old ladies who worked and planned but had thier annuities whipped out by Enron and other crooks like em'. Literally 100's of other examples but I think you get my point.


Also being rich or poor is mainly about market position not hard work or decisons one makes. Generally speaking: This is why upper class kids stay that way and lower class kids ones stay that way too. The hardest work is actually done by people whose market position makes their daily wage quite minimal, the working poor.

I will give you fraud, but only fraud where the person did not have a hand in it, even than it was there choice to invest in said company. The Iraq soldiers made a decision to go to war, knowing the past treatment of Vets. As well, tell me of a kid, who worked as hard as he could through highschool, got a high enough average to get into Uni, chose a field that you can actually get a job in, and is poor, do this and I will still be able to find a choice he made that caused his situation. Life is about the choices you make, nothing else.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Zebo

People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

You must be a child come back in 20 years after you seen some life. Many things are beyond ones control.. By then you should see some dramatic cases like few iraq war vets screaming to themselves in iraqi like they have terets or something digging though garbage cans. Or old ladies who worked and planned but had thier annuities whipped out by Enron and other crooks like em'. Literally 100's of other examples but I think you get my point.


Also being rich or poor is mainly about market position not hard work or decisons one makes. Generally speaking: This is why upper class kids stay that way and lower class kids ones stay that way too. The hardest work is actually done by people whose market position makes their daily wage quite minimal, the working poor.

I will give you fraud, but only fraud where the person did not have a hand in it, even than it was there choice to invest in said company. The Iraq soldiers made a decision to go to war, knowing the past treatment of Vets. As well, tell me of a kid, who worked as hard as he could through highschool, got a high enough average to get into Uni, chose a field that you can actually get a job in, and is poor, do this and I will still be able to find a choice he made that caused his situation. Life is about the choices you make, nothing else.

Everyone makes bad choices, everyone. Some just have more opportunities to recover from those bad choices. Look at Bush, he basically failed at everything he did and ended up POTUS.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Zebo

People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

You must be a child come back in 20 years after you seen some life. Many things are beyond ones control.. By then you should see some dramatic cases like few iraq war vets screaming to themselves in iraqi like they have terets or something digging though garbage cans. Or old ladies who worked and planned but had thier annuities whipped out by Enron and other crooks like em'. Literally 100's of other examples but I think you get my point.


Also being rich or poor is mainly about market position not hard work or decisons one makes. Generally speaking: This is why upper class kids stay that way and lower class kids ones stay that way too. The hardest work is actually done by people whose market position makes their daily wage quite minimal, the working poor.

I will give you fraud, but only fraud where the person did not have a hand in it, even than it was there choice to invest in said company. The Iraq soldiers made a decision to go to war, knowing the past treatment of Vets. As well, tell me of a kid, who worked as hard as he could through highschool, got a high enough average to get into Uni, chose a field that you can actually get a job in, and is poor, do this and I will still be able to find a choice he made that caused his situation. Life is about the choices you make, nothing else.

Everyone makes bad choices, everyone. Some just have more opportunities to recover from those bad choices. Look at Bush, he basically failed at everything he did and ended up POTUS.

What does Bush have to do with people's choices :beer:

And yes, people make bad choices and you have to live with them. Just because everyone makes bad choices is not an excuse, and just reaffirms my point, whatever your position is, it is your position due to a choice or combination of choices you made.

 

[CSMR]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: CSMR

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Are their abilities really limited or do they just tell themselves that?

I think almost any adult (excepting mentally handicapped of course) can get an education.

Their abilities are really limited. No-one has unlimited abilities. But I agree almost any adult will be able to get a basic education.

I never said that there are people with unlimited abilities. I don't know where you got that from.

I mean anyone with an IQ of at least 90 can get an education. And I am talking about some degree in science or engineering.

I think that is going too far. Maybe they can get a degree at some places, but it won't be up to the standards of an average degree program if they are to complete the degree in a reasonable time. Even an intelligent person who is poor at mathematics will have serious difficulties. Some people's minds even if they try hard are not suited to this sort of study.
But why bring up the question in the firs place? How will a person of below average intelligence benefit from a science degree?

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Aelius

Originally posted by: RichardE
People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

That's total BS and I speak from experience. It may be true of some people but this sort of sweeping statement is exactly what is wrong with people's thinking about poverty. Especially when they haven't been there or they got lucky in life.

That may be true about 3rd world countries where people have no opportunities, but honestly if you are living in the U.S. and you are in poverty and you haven't just gotten off the boat, that is going to be most likely decisions you made.

My girlfriend is from Mexico and her parents immigrated here (legally) when she was 9. Her mom works as a housekeeper for a hotel and her dad works as a carpenter. They have 4 children including my girlfriend. Her older brother and sister already graduated from college. Her brother has a degree in mechanical engineering and her sister got a degree in biology. My girlfriend herself is in college now also, so she will be the third to get a degree. And her younger brother is going to transfer in about a year.

So two of them already have degrees and two of them are on their way towards getting a degree.

I've been to her parent's house. They live in a ghetto part of town and these people do not have a lot of money. But they obviously raised their kids to be responsible and value education. And this has absolutely nothing to do with luck. Her parents are very thrifty with their money and instilled educational values upon all of them.

This is the land of opportunity. If you don't do it here you won't do it anywhere under any circumstances.

Please, use your hallowed degree to think!! If everyone single person in this country had a degree some of them will still have to dig ditches, clean toilets, etc. Those are the people who are getting the short end of the stick.

And don't forget, if everyone had a degree, he'd be bitching that they're all reducing the value of HIS degree (and income)

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Zebo

People are poor for a reason, the decisions they made.

You must be a child come back in 20 years after you seen some life. Many things are beyond ones control.. By then you should see some dramatic cases like few iraq war vets screaming to themselves in iraqi like they have terets or something digging though garbage cans. Or old ladies who worked and planned but had thier annuities whipped out by Enron and other crooks like em'. Literally 100's of other examples but I think you get my point.


Also being rich or poor is mainly about market position not hard work or decisons one makes. Generally speaking: This is why upper class kids stay that way and lower class kids ones stay that way too. The hardest work is actually done by people whose market position makes their daily wage quite minimal, the working poor.

I will give you fraud, but only fraud where the person did not have a hand in it, even than it was there choice to invest in said company. The Iraq soldiers made a decision to go to war, knowing the past treatment of Vets. As well, tell me of a kid, who worked as hard as he could through highschool, got a high enough average to get into Uni, chose a field that you can actually get a job in, and is poor, do this and I will still be able to find a choice he made that caused his situation. Life is about the choices you make, nothing else.

Everyone makes bad choices, everyone. Some just have more opportunities to recover from those bad choices. Look at Bush, he basically failed at everything he did and ended up POTUS.

What does Bush have to do with people's choices :beer:

And yes, people make bad choices and you have to live with them. Just because everyone makes bad choices is not an excuse, and just reaffirms my point, whatever your position is, it is your position due to a choice or combination of choices you made.

True, but as I pointed out some people can make lots of bad choices, even all bad choices and still come out smelling like a rose while another person makes all good choices, but still ends up with the short end of the stick.

The Rich-Poor income gap has more to do with the opportunities they were presented with and the Rich have WAY more opportunity. Is the American Dream dead? No, but it's becoming more and more of a "dream" all the time.