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RIAA is killing internet radio on May 15.

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Originally posted by: Vortex22
I'm surprised at how few people seem to care about this. Maybe internet radio is less popular than I thought (or I'm on the wrong forum.. heh).
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Yea you are. Those DI.fm forums are crazy =). I used to listen to a lot of Di.fm, but this is sad 🙁
 
Originally posted by: Nimloth
I called my representative's office and told him to support House Resolution 2060, the Internet Radio Equality Act. The guy on the phone said he'll pass the message along. You should call your rep too, it only takes a minute.
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emailed my rep because i'm slightly lazier :beer:
 
DI.fm is just collapsing, its not going to affect all internet radio, only those that aren't willing to stand up. The radio stations I listen to more often aren't conforming, even if they need to (which they don't) they'll move their servers and do other things. They have no way of enforcing this unless the music played by the internet stations in question is owned by the RIAA. Well guess what, EDM music isn't associated with the RIAA - DI is folding on this like a 4 yo girl when they have no legal obligation to do so. Nearly all Trance/House/DownTempo and simply Electronic music IN GENERAL is released by lables that have NOTHING to do with the RIAA.

Granted this doesn't mean we shouldn't do something for people who listen to music that is associated with the RIAA, but for DI to fold like this when all of the other EDM stations I listen to aren't - I don't know what to think. I listen to ProtonRadio and FriskyRadio, also IdealSound.ca and a few others - DI is ok but not as good as these others unless you like the really cheesey trance, which it looks like people on here do. DI doesn't deserve to continue broadcasting if they can't get out of this one, they are submitting when they don't need to.
 
Originally posted by: Aharami
Originally posted by: blurredvision
Originally posted by: jdoggg12
the harder the RIAA fights, the less guilt people have of stealing their music.... i, for one, hope they get utterly screwed and driven out of business. Maybe then the public will be given music it likes instead of whats pushed down our throats by these companies with enough money to buy radio play time.
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Pushed down your throat? If you don't like what a radio station is playing, don't listen to it. If you don't like a song or CD, don't buy it.

You decide what you listen to, not RIAA or anyone else. Don't be ignorant.
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yea but all you're exposed to over the airwaves are crap like britney spears and latest tenny bopper band. i love trance and only place i can hear new trance is over the net.
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Who says you have to be exposed to it? What part of "don't listen" do you not understand? I guess this type of arguement is lost on me. I live the greatest country in the world, where I choose what I listen to and when I want to listen to it. Radio isn't the only source for music. Hell, in a month of driving, I maybe turn on the radio for 15 minutes out of 20 hours of driving. I'm not exposed to anything because I make the initial decision of listening to what I want, not wasting time waiting for the radio to play a song I like.
 
Originally posted by: AMDZen
DI.fm is just collapsing, its not going to affect all internet radio, only those that aren't willing to stand up. The radio stations I listen to more often aren't conforming, even if they need to (which they don't) they'll move their servers and do other things. They have no way of enforcing this unless the music played by the internet stations in question is owned by the RIAA. Well guess what, EDM music isn't associated with the RIAA - DI is folding on this like a 4 yo girl when they have no legal obligation to do so. Nearly all Trance/House/DownTempo and simply Electronic music IN GENERAL is released by lables that have NOTHING to do with the RIAA.

Granted this doesn't mean we shouldn't do something for people who listen to music that is associated with the RIAA, but for DI to fold like this when all of the other EDM stations I listen to aren't - I don't know what to think. I listen to ProtonRadio and FriskyRadio, also IdealSound.ca and a few others - DI is ok but not as good as these others unless you like the really cheesey trance, which it looks like people on here do. DI doesn't deserve to continue broadcasting if they can't get out of this one, they are submitting when they don't need to.
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i did wonder why digitallyimported is being affected so much. they mostly play trance/dance stuff and none of that is under RIAA IIRC
 
This would've bothered me more before I had XM online.

I used to listen to vocal trance from Di.fm a lot.
 
Originally posted by: Aharami
Originally posted by: AMDZen
DI.fm is just collapsing, its not going to affect all internet radio, only those that aren't willing to stand up. The radio stations I listen to more often aren't conforming, even if they need to (which they don't) they'll move their servers and do other things. They have no way of enforcing this unless the music played by the internet stations in question is owned by the RIAA. Well guess what, EDM music isn't associated with the RIAA - DI is folding on this like a 4 yo girl when they have no legal obligation to do so. Nearly all Trance/House/DownTempo and simply Electronic music IN GENERAL is released by lables that have NOTHING to do with the RIAA.

Granted this doesn't mean we shouldn't do something for people who listen to music that is associated with the RIAA, but for DI to fold like this when all of the other EDM stations I listen to aren't - I don't know what to think. I listen to ProtonRadio and FriskyRadio, also IdealSound.ca and a few others - DI is ok but not as good as these others unless you like the really cheesey trance, which it looks like people on here do. DI doesn't deserve to continue broadcasting if they can't get out of this one, they are submitting when they don't need to.
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i did wonder why digitallyimported is being affected so much. they mostly play trance/dance stuff and none of that is under RIAA IIRC
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AMDZen has a poor understanding of how copyright laws, compulsory licensing, and the SoundExchange works. SE collects money for all songs played by an internet radio station unless there is an exemption, this is the exchange you make for using the compulsory license (as established by the United States) to play any music you want to. DI can only play 3 kinds of songs: Songs that are public domain, songs that they have specific permission to do so, and all other songs via compulsory licensing. Virtually all internet radio stations fall under #3; the number of songs under #1 is minimal and #2 is really hard to do (imagine tracking down lawyers for every single band whose song you want to play, and you need to also find the songwriters, etc).

This leaves #3, to operate a functional internet radio station you need to work within the confines of the compulsory license. Right now the costs being charged per song under that license are very (unfairly) expensive, which is the problem. Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is), DI still needs to pay SE to play the music, because the proper artists still need to be paid for their work.

It's true that they could just move outside the USA, but I happen to know that Ari & crew like living in NYC, and by going ex-pat they are not absolved of their legal requirements as long as they stream to people within the USA. There are enough Federal laws on the books that if Ari was in the US for any reason he could be detained and taken to trial, and perhaps even collected outside the US under an extradition deal or bounty hunters.

The only workable solution here is to either fold or acquire a sane rate from SE. Nothing else is practical, legal, or sustainable.
 
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: Aharami
Originally posted by: AMDZen
DI.fm is just collapsing, its not going to affect all internet radio, only those that aren't willing to stand up. The radio stations I listen to more often aren't conforming, even if they need to (which they don't) they'll move their servers and do other things. They have no way of enforcing this unless the music played by the internet stations in question is owned by the RIAA. Well guess what, EDM music isn't associated with the RIAA - DI is folding on this like a 4 yo girl when they have no legal obligation to do so. Nearly all Trance/House/DownTempo and simply Electronic music IN GENERAL is released by lables that have NOTHING to do with the RIAA.

Granted this doesn't mean we shouldn't do something for people who listen to music that is associated with the RIAA, but for DI to fold like this when all of the other EDM stations I listen to aren't - I don't know what to think. I listen to ProtonRadio and FriskyRadio, also IdealSound.ca and a few others - DI is ok but not as good as these others unless you like the really cheesey trance, which it looks like people on here do. DI doesn't deserve to continue broadcasting if they can't get out of this one, they are submitting when they don't need to.
Click to expand...

i did wonder why digitallyimported is being affected so much. they mostly play trance/dance stuff and none of that is under RIAA IIRC
Click to expand...
AMDZen has a poor understanding of how copyright laws, compulsory licensing, and the SoundExchange works. SE collects money for all songs played by an internet radio station unless there is an exemption, this is the exchange you make for using the compulsory license (as established by the United States) to play any music you want to. DI can only play 3 kinds of songs: Songs that are public domain, songs that they have specific permission to do so, and all other songs via compulsory licensing. Virtually all internet radio stations fall under #3; the number of songs under #1 is minimal and #2 is really hard to do (imagine tracking down lawyers for every single band whose song you want to play, and you need to also find the songwriters, etc).

This leaves #3, to operate a functional internet radio station you need to work within the confines of the compulsory license. Right now the costs being charged per song under that license are very (unfairly) expensive, which is the problem. Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is), DI still needs to pay SE to play the music, because the proper artists still need to be paid for their work.

It's true that they could just move outside the USA, but I happen to know that Ari & crew like living in NYC, and by going ex-pat they are not absolved of their legal requirements as long as they stream to people within the USA. There are enough Federal laws on the books that if Ari was in the US for any reason he could be detained and taken to trial, and perhaps even collected outside the US under an extradition deal or bounty hunters.

The only workable solution here is to either fold or acquire a sane rate from SE. Nothing else is practical, legal, or sustainable.
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What is the cost per song that Internet radio stations have to pay, and how does that compare to the rate per son that regular radio stations pay?
 
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: Aharami
Originally posted by: AMDZen
DI.fm is just collapsing, its not going to affect all internet radio, only those that aren't willing to stand up. The radio stations I listen to more often aren't conforming, even if they need to (which they don't) they'll move their servers and do other things. They have no way of enforcing this unless the music played by the internet stations in question is owned by the RIAA. Well guess what, EDM music isn't associated with the RIAA - DI is folding on this like a 4 yo girl when they have no legal obligation to do so. Nearly all Trance/House/DownTempo and simply Electronic music IN GENERAL is released by lables that have NOTHING to do with the RIAA.

Granted this doesn't mean we shouldn't do something for people who listen to music that is associated with the RIAA, but for DI to fold like this when all of the other EDM stations I listen to aren't - I don't know what to think. I listen to ProtonRadio and FriskyRadio, also IdealSound.ca and a few others - DI is ok but not as good as these others unless you like the really cheesey trance, which it looks like people on here do. DI doesn't deserve to continue broadcasting if they can't get out of this one, they are submitting when they don't need to.
Click to expand...

i did wonder why digitallyimported is being affected so much. they mostly play trance/dance stuff and none of that is under RIAA IIRC
Click to expand...
AMDZen has a poor understanding of how copyright laws, compulsory licensing, and the SoundExchange works. SE collects money for all songs played by an internet radio station unless there is an exemption, this is the exchange you make for using the compulsory license (as established by the United States) to play any music you want to. DI can only play 3 kinds of songs: Songs that are public domain, songs that they have specific permission to do so, and all other songs via compulsory licensing. Virtually all internet radio stations fall under #3; the number of songs under #1 is minimal and #2 is really hard to do (imagine tracking down lawyers for every single band whose song you want to play, and you need to also find the songwriters, etc).

This leaves #3, to operate a functional internet radio station you need to work within the confines of the compulsory license. Right now the costs being charged per song under that license are very (unfairly) expensive, which is the problem. Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is), DI still needs to pay SE to play the music, because the proper artists still need to be paid for their work.

It's true that they could just move outside the USA, but I happen to know that Ari & crew like living in NYC, and by going ex-pat they are not absolved of their legal requirements as long as they stream to people within the USA. There are enough Federal laws on the books that if Ari was in the US for any reason he could be detained and taken to trial, and perhaps even collected outside the US under an extradition deal or bounty hunters.

The only workable solution here is to either fold or acquire a sane rate from SE. Nothing else is practical, legal, or sustainable.
Click to expand...

Oh I have a poor understanding? You also have a poor understanding of EDM and how it differs in this argument. I'm part of the industry, sure I don't have anything distributed yet but I know exactly how it works - and of the thousands of people I know who are also part of the industry, not a one of them is part of or released a single record/track on a label that's even remotely owned by or associated with the RIAA.

We will see what happens when all of the other radio stations argue this exact point, and are still streaming music years from now.

Yes you are right on how the law is written but we'll see if and when they actually try to pursue lets say ProtonRadio.com and where it goes in court. The RIAA doesn't have a leg to stand on and DI is folding like a little girl.
 
Furthermore, I'd simply like to add a few things to my argument:

I don't listen to trance anymore, namely the cheesey crappy kind aka DJ Tiesto. And yes a lot of it has gone mainstream, namely Tiesto - and it is possible that he has released some things (Like BT did) under labels that are owned or associated with the RIAA. THis would mean that a lot of things DI currently plays, would have to be thrown out the window. They wouldn't be able to play this stuff. However, thats all they would need to do - screen out the things that are owned by the RIAA and not play those tracks. Which is a GOOD THING any way because that music is bringing down what EDM is.

It needs to remain like it is, labels that people are doing out of their house. Printing Vinyl and giving it to DJs that matter and that can get the music out. I know quite a few of the people who run ProtonRadio and also FriskyRadio and I do know what I'm talking about. THere isn't a single EDM station I know of other then DI.fm that is folding under this, and the only thing I can figure is they refuse to stop playing the very VERY small amount of stuff on their stations that is tied to the RIAA.

It was clear you had no idea what you we're talking about when you said "Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is)," but things are very complex in the industry and I'm not about to explain it to you.
 
Here is a pretty good read on not only what is going on with internet radio but with copyright in general.

Copyright law and the CRB: What went wrong?

The purpose of copyright law
Stanford Law professor and copyright expert Lawrence Lessig (pictured right) writes, "Copyright has never accorded the copyright owner complete control over all possible uses of his work. Its purpose instead is to secure a limited monopoly over certain ways in which creative work is exploited, so as to give the authors (i.e., composers and performers) an incentive to create, and thus, in turn, to 'promote the Progress of Science'."

In fact, it's beyond argument today that the U.S. copyright laws recognize no absolute right in authors to prevent others from copying or exploiting their work. Rather, copyright laws grant authors limited rights in their works solely to an extent that Congress believes that creation and dissemination of their works are encouraged. In the long term, authors' intents and interests have always been secondary to that of the public.
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Bolding added by me.
 
The thing that is going to break them is collecting royalties on songs they don't own. Sound exchange collects money from internet play even if you tell them not to. I hope the record labels finally realize that the RIAA is giving their company a bad name and a front for them won't protect them from their lost reputations.
 
Originally posted by: AMDZen
Furthermore, I'd simply like to add a few things to my argument:

I don't listen to trance anymore, namely the cheesey crappy kind aka DJ Tiesto. And yes a lot of it has gone mainstream, namely Tiesto - and it is possible that he has released some things (Like BT did) under labels that are owned or associated with the RIAA. THis would mean that a lot of things DI currently plays, would have to be thrown out the window. They wouldn't be able to play this stuff. However, thats all they would need to do - screen out the things that are owned by the RIAA and not play those tracks. Which is a GOOD THING any way because that music is bringing down what EDM is.

It needs to remain like it is, labels that people are doing out of their house. Printing Vinyl and giving it to DJs that matter and that can get the music out. I know quite a few of the people who run ProtonRadio and also FriskyRadio and I do know what I'm talking about. THere isn't a single EDM station I know of other then DI.fm that is folding under this, and the only thing I can figure is they refuse to stop playing the very VERY small amount of stuff on their stations that is tied to the RIAA.

It was clear you had no idea what you we're talking about when you said "Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is)," but things are very complex in the industry and I'm not about to explain it to you.
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Generally I take peoples' statements at face value, but I have to question how much you actually know. You still try to assert that it's only RIAA music that has to be paid for, and this is wrong. Compulsory licensing clearly states that you have to pay for all songs unless you have it waived under conditions #1 or #2. I do not know much about either of the radio stations you have mentioned, but unless you're sure every single thing they play is covered by the first two cases, then they're in violation of the law just like everyone else.

Frankly, you cross me as a fanboy of these two radio stations, looking to kick someone while they're down because it makes you feel better. DI does play a lot of popular stuff, even if they didn't they'd still be in the same situation.

Also, I'd advise you to go see just how many labels are sub-groups of the Big 4 in the RIAA; it's not just a little bit of music that is RIAA-covered, it's a lot of it (especially the stuff that people listen to a lot). Not that this would make a difference, since I just pointed out how you have to pay royalties regardless.
 
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: jdoggg12
shameful

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/24/141326/870
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I'd recommend reading the Slashdot topic that goes with that article. It's factually correct, but a bit FUDish at the same time.
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That's incredibly ridiculous.

That's like saying...
As of tomorrow, I claim royalties to all open source software. I'm making this change retroactive as well, so you must pay me for any open source software you have downloaded in the past two years. It doesn't matter that the programmers wanted their software to be free, and it doesn't matter that they aren't affiliated with me in any way, I'M THE RIAA I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT!
 
Originally posted by: ViRGE
Originally posted by: AMDZen
Furthermore, I'd simply like to add a few things to my argument:

I don't listen to trance anymore, namely the cheesey crappy kind aka DJ Tiesto. And yes a lot of it has gone mainstream, namely Tiesto - and it is possible that he has released some things (Like BT did) under labels that are owned or associated with the RIAA. THis would mean that a lot of things DI currently plays, would have to be thrown out the window. They wouldn't be able to play this stuff. However, thats all they would need to do - screen out the things that are owned by the RIAA and not play those tracks. Which is a GOOD THING any way because that music is bringing down what EDM is.

It needs to remain like it is, labels that people are doing out of their house. Printing Vinyl and giving it to DJs that matter and that can get the music out. I know quite a few of the people who run ProtonRadio and also FriskyRadio and I do know what I'm talking about. THere isn't a single EDM station I know of other then DI.fm that is folding under this, and the only thing I can figure is they refuse to stop playing the very VERY small amount of stuff on their stations that is tied to the RIAA.

It was clear you had no idea what you we're talking about when you said "Even though some electronic music isn't RIAA-related(a lot of it is)," but things are very complex in the industry and I'm not about to explain it to you.
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Generally I take peoples' statements at face value, but I have to question how much you actually know. You still try to assert that it's only RIAA music that has to be paid for, and this is wrong. Compulsory licensing clearly states that you have to pay for all songs unless you have it waived under conditions #1 or #2. I do not know much about either of the radio stations you have mentioned, but unless you're sure every single thing they play is covered by the first two cases, then they're in violation of the law just like everyone else.

Frankly, you cross me as a fanboy of these two radio stations, looking to kick someone while they're down because it makes you feel better. DI does play a lot of popular stuff, even if they didn't they'd still be in the same situation.

Also, I'd advise you to go see just how many labels are sub-groups of the Big 4 in the RIAA; it's not just a little bit of music that is RIAA-covered, it's a lot of it (especially the stuff that people listen to a lot). Not that this would make a difference, since I just pointed out how you have to pay royalties regardless.
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I'm just a fan boy? Well you strike me as someone who works for the RIAA or SE since you seem to just be spouting the same thing they are. It doesn't matter that they think they should get paid for EVERY song broadcast. You think that if I started my own internet radio station and then played nothing but music that I made myself I would have to pay royalties to the SE so they could then pass them back to me? Just because the law is written that way doesn't mean it would hold up in court - the RIAA or SE wouldn't be stupid enough to pursue it either since I'd win. Same situation here.

All I'm saying is that ALL the other EDM stations on the planet that I know of, and I know of a lot of them - granted only 3-4 of them are in the US since its kind of like soccer and is least popular here - are not abiding by this because they don't feel they have to. They don't feel they have to because they don't broadcast music thats owned by the RIAA. Maybe they are wrong and there is NO justice and they'll end up getting screwed over but they are still standing up for themselves. Time will tell but nearly everyone in the industry will tell you the same thing if you asked them.

The fact is that the RIAA and SE probably won't pursue the radio stations I'm talking about because they would lose. DI could do the same and just stop playing maybe 5-10% of the music they're currently playing and just say f*** em, but instead they're taking the safe way out instead of standing up for whats right. It makes no sense since so little of what they broadcast could be fought by the RIAA.

And its clear to me already that you don't know what your talking about in regards to the labels because not a single of the really big labels that buy up and or distribute a lot of the EDM today have any association with the RIAA. I'd say more then 90% of it. And yet you still come out with "Oh a lot more then you think of the 'sub-labels' are tied to the RIAA" and yet you haven't given me a single example. Have you ever heard of "White Label" recordings? Did you know that close to half of the music most club DJ's are playing fit into the White Label category? Any way feel free to give me some examples of these so called "sub labels" that are associated with the RIAA. I could list well over a hundred that aren't.
 
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