Rhapsody responds to Apple's subscription policy

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
In case you weren't aware, Apple's newly launched App Store subscriptions aren't sitting so well with everybody. While the functionality could of course be a boon to services that have struggled getting paying customers, folks who have already been doing just fine, thank you very much, are balking at the new restrictions Apple has imposed. Rhapsody has issued a statement, which says that it's not going to play ball and even levels a bit of a threat: "We will be collaborating with our market peers in determining an appropriate legal and business response to this latest development." The big trouble stems from the fact that Apple requires anybody offering a subscription service to offer that service for the same price or less through Apple. That means you can still sign up folks through your own methods and get all the cash, but if anybody signs up through your app, Apple gets a 30 percent cut. In addition, Apple is no longer allowing applications to include a link to an external site for purchasing, which means vendors will have trouble getting new users to pay them directly instead of using Apple's simple but heavily-taxed option. Rhapsody claims that it can't offer its services at existing prices with Apple grabbing that much of the revenue, and it sounds like Rhapsody will be leaving the App Store soon if an agreement isn't struck.

Of course, this is just the shiny surface of the dirt Apple's new policies have scuffed up, and we might even have an antitrust case on our hands, according to the Wall Street Journal. Check out the more coverage link for more on that, and follow after the break for Rhapsody's statement in full.

Why is Apple doing this crap? Trying to get even more money out of the people that make their apps. This really is ridiculous. 30% is a HUGE cut. Apple forces too much control over everything in their ecosystem. This hurts more than just Rhapsody as it could affect Amazon, Hulu, New York Times, etc. This is basically extortion since there's no other way for you to get the app other than the App Store. This sin't much different than the Microsoft Anti-Trust case.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/rhapsody-wont-bow-to-apples-subscription-policy-issues-statem/
 
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Rangoric

Senior member
Apr 5, 2006
530
0
71
The main problem I see is that many subscription services are already priced close to the bone.

They really need to work something else out with the people providing subscription services. 30% flat rate for the life of the sub just isn't quite as fair. I could see maybe 30% of the first 3 months or something, just as something not quite as harsh.
 

Spicedaddy

Platinum Member
Apr 18, 2002
2,305
77
91
Yeah, 30% is insane. Something around 15% would make more sense, still expensive but more reasonable.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
136
Why is Apple doing this crap? Trying to get even more money out of the people that make their apps. This really is ridiculous. 30% is a HUGE cut. Apple forces too much control over everything in their ecosystem. This hurts more than just Rhapsody as it could affect Amazon, Hulu, New York Times, etc. This is basically extortion since there's no other way for you to get the app other than the App Store. This sin't much different than the Microsoft Anti-Trust case.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/rhapsody-wont-bow-to-apples-subscription-policy-issues-statem/

I'm not trying to defend Apple in any way. But I can see why they are doing this. Obviously Hulu and Rhapsody as well as Netflix are a little different but the subscription pricing was probably targeted more towards magazine or other periodical subscriptions. Things like Newsweek or the New York Times. These would most likely be hosted by Apple.

Apple is in the business of making money. It's not really in the business of making other people money. What they're trying to head off is "free" apps like the New York Times that are hosted by them and using their delivery system which is essentially iTunes but which brings them no revenue in any way shape or form. Apple knows it has a captive audience and if you're out to make money off of Apple's customers, they want a piece of the pie. Keep in mind if you deliver a magazine and make zero dollars outside of ads on it, then Apple doesn't get jack and still will host and deliver your updates.

You're also free to not deliver an app and instead make a web based subscription product which can still be delivered without Apple's consent or Apple ever seeing a penny. So the New York Times can have a mobile version of their website that requires subscription and Apple will see zero dollars. You're also free to snail mail or email your subscribers and ask them to buy the subscriptions via your website instead of through an iOS app.


Keep in mind I think 30% is insane. I know that online subscriptions are price similarly to print subscriptions and a print magazine makes almost all of its money from ads and not the actual subscriptions which mostly cover postage and hopefully print costs. I don't have a problem with Apple (which makes relatively little on iTunes) trying to recoup costs or actually profiting from iTunes but 30% off of a subscription seems overly steep.
 

SunnyD

Belgian Waffler
Jan 2, 2001
32,675
146
106
www.neftastic.com
Welcome to Apple, where your money is our money.

Can't blame them though. They're trying to make a fast grab on as much as they can before people realize what a sham they are and people find competitive products elsewhere. Leverage the market while you can.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
One reason I will not get an Apple product.
Also, Apple requires that company price subscription same or less for Apple users, so if a company raises prices on its subscriptions for non-Apple customers so that it's still profitable after giving Apple it's 30% cut, I will not buy their prescriptions either. Apple is killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
I hope Netflix, Amazon, and other companies that stand to lose a lot of money from this arrangement start to put pressure on Apple to relax the restrictions. Apple wouldn't want anything to happen to their precious Netflix and Kindle apps...

Barring the threat of pulling the apps, they could get around the restrictions by adding a surcharge for iOS users. Sort of like charging extra for Blu-rays on Netflix. The subscription would cost the same whether you make it from the website or the app (thus satisfying Apple's requirements).
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
Here's the thing. This is more for users because it gives them the ease to subscribe to things. Apple then gets 30% because it brought that business to the developer/publisher. Developers/publishers still have the ability to get 100% of the profit. There's still a choice for publishers.

They were also saying, some apps would get a reprieve from this (like Netflix).
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Here's the thing. This is more for users because it gives them the ease to subscribe to things. Apple then gets 30% because it brought that business to the developer/publisher. Developers/publishers still have the ability to get 100% of the profit. There's still a choice for publishers.

They were also saying, some apps would get a reprieve from this (like Netflix).
Basically this, the app store is bringing these companies new customers they might not have had otherwise. I don't think asking for a cut is that unreasonable. 30% seems beyond ridiculous, though.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
Basically this, the app store is bringing these companies new customers they might not have had otherwise. I don't think asking for a cut is that unreasonable. 30% seems beyond ridiculous, though.

Apple's quarterly statements show that their App Store/iTunes (stuff like that) is barely making profit. It's pretty much breaking even.
 

gsaldivar

Diamond Member
Apr 30, 2001
8,691
1
81
Why is Apple doing this crap? Trying to get even more money out of the people that make their apps. This really is ridiculous. 30% is a HUGE cut.

This has always been Apple's unwritten mission. At all costs, to maximize profit from the premium market segment of any market they are in. Even if that means settling for a smaller market share, even if that means reducing consumer choice, even if that means shoehorning consumers into a "one size fits all" solution...

And they are very good at what they do.

Maximizing profit means that your customers must be truly convinced that your products are superior to anything else on the market, sight unseen. The Apple brand name, front and center, alone in the spotlight to reinforce in your mind that Apple is beyond compare to anything else.

In Steve's mind, Apple has earned every penny of that 30% cut, while they sweated to provide people with a child-safe version of music, magazines, computing, and smartphones. In Steve's world, every sale above and beyond what publishers normally sell, entitles Apple to the lions share of the sale price as commission for what would otherwise be no sale at all.

And to this point - Steve Jobs is right.

Content producers, music companies, magazine publishers, movie studios... still haven't signed on to the fact that they simply don't understand the Internet or what it means to their businesses. They are dinosaurs. Jammed in neutral, these old media executives are still stuck in an age where people still line up to buy content stamped on plastic discs and paper. Desperate to protect their revenue streams at all costs, they collectively throw billions at half-hearted efforts to make their business "go digital".

Steve Jobs is ultimately one of the very few people in this world who truly understand the potential of eCommerce. But more importantly, he intimately understands his customers and knows exactly what to do to get them to buy what he is selling, and how to keep them coming back for more.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Here's the thing. This is more for users because it gives them the ease to subscribe to things. Apple then gets 30% because it brought that business to the developer/publisher. Developers/publishers still have the ability to get 100% of the profit. There's still a choice for publishers.

They were also saying, some apps would get a reprieve from this (like Netflix).

What about user who is already a subscriber, but decides to re-subscribe through in-app subscription? Apple is forcing the content provider to offer the same price either way, but just because the user decides to use Apple as payment method, it wipes out all of the provider's profits on the content.
Also, take two distributors, both buy content for same price from a publisher. One decides to stick with Apple, and has about 50% of users on iOS and 50% not on iOS. To get 15% profit margin, it would make 0% profit of iOS users and have to make it up by making 30% profit off non-iOS users. Second distributor says, screw Apple, its not making me any money, and underprices the first provider on Android by only charging 15% markup over publisher's price. First distributor can't match this because then it would be losing money on iOS sales. Non-iOS users flock to the second provider, leaving the first one with mostly iOS customers. To make same 15%, margin after Apple's cut, it would then need to charge 45% markup over the publisher's price. Soon you will see a division between companies that only target iOS users, but are forced to charge 30% more to keep same margins, and other companies that only target non-iOS users. Since as an end users, I have no interest in paying 30% mark up on same content, I would avoid iOS like a plague and stick to alternatives.
 

akugami

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2005
6,210
2,551
136
This has always been Apple's unwritten mission. At all costs, to maximize profit from the premium market segment of any market they are in. Even if that means settling for a smaller market share, even if that means reducing consumer choice, even if that means shoehorning consumers into a "one size fits all" solution...

*SNIP*

Steve Jobs is ultimately one of the very few people in this world who truly understand the potential of eCommerce. But more importantly, he intimately understands his customers and knows exactly what to do to get them to buy what he is selling, and how to keep them coming back for more.

I think it also bears repeating that their business model with iTunes has always been to use it as a way to tie users into an ecosystem where you're more likely to remain an Apple customer. The iTunes store simply does not make a lot of money. If I recall correctly it lost money for the first few years.

Apple's greatest strengths are that it does create good products and is good at marketing products. I know a lot of people will say the "good products" part is blasphemy but it's true. Apple is not a great innovator but the company has a lot of engineers and designers who are great at integrating technologies into a cohesive whole. It's not an innovative company but it's a creative company if that makes sense to any of you.

Making a good product isn't all there is to business. You have to market it and Apple is great at that too. We've all seen advertisements that make you go "WTF" from other companies but a lot of times, Apple's ads will pull you in even if they are not 100% factually correct or insinuate things that are not true.


What about user who is already a subscriber, but decides to re-subscribe through in-app subscription? Apple is forcing the content provider to offer the same price either way, but just because the user decides to use Apple as payment method, it wipes out all of the provider's profits on the content.
Also, take two distributors, both buy content for same price from a publisher. One decides to stick with Apple, and has about 50% of users on iOS and 50% not on iOS. To get 15% profit margin, it would make 0% profit of iOS users and have to make it up by making 30% profit off non-iOS users. Second distributor says, screw Apple, its not making me any money, and underprices the first provider on Android by only charging 15% markup over publisher's price. First distributor can't match this because then it would be losing money on iOS sales. Non-iOS users flock to the second provider, leaving the first one with mostly iOS customers. To make same 15%, margin after Apple's cut, it would then need to charge 45% markup over the publisher's price. Soon you will see a division between companies that only target iOS users, but are forced to charge 30% more to keep same margins, and other companies that only target non-iOS users. Since as an end users, I have no interest in paying 30% mark up on same content, I would avoid iOS like a plague and stick to alternatives.

Streaming products aside, such as Hulu, Netflix, and Rhapsody, most subscription products are newspapers and other periodicals who depend almost entirely on ads for their profits. That 30% is not as bad as it seems on the surface.

The good part for consumers is that Apple wants to try to guarantee the prices for subscriptions on an iOS app is the same as elsewhere. The bad part is as you mention, prices might get hiked universally.

As for developers (content producers really) saying "screw Apple" and not making an iOS app, they've always been free to make a web based version that can be viewed on any mobile browser. Assuming you're a periodical. And there are already streaming apps on the iPhone. Some of which are subscription based. You just have to go to their website to sign up for a subscription.

The fact is developers feel there is a segment of users that they can cheaply sell their subscriptions to. They want to use Apple's storefront but they're balking at the rent. This is no different from Amazon charging a fee for selling through Amazon.com. If you don't like Amazon's prices, you're free to set up your own website/storefront. Keep in mind that Amazon (like Apple) has a large user base that's just waiting to be tapped. If you start your own store, you'll be hit with all sorts of problems and costs that would be reduced if you had gone with Amazon.com (or iTunes).

One thing that a lot of people probably don't realize is that even before the cost of maintaining iTunes is factored in, Apple does not fully receive every dollar that is made through purchases on iTunes. Every business that accepts credit card transactions needs to sign up with a credit card processor. These credit card processors don't work for free. Depending on card type as well as business standing, there is a processing fee that can be anywhere from 10 cents to over 30 cents per transaction. Then there is another fee that is charged based on the overall monthly transaction amount. I forget the exact percentage amount but even at 1%, it can be a staggering payout considering the revenue of iTunes. And that's before they even get to maintaining the iTunes infrastructure.

The content providers do save some money in not having to pay processing fees if Apple is the one doing the collecting so it's not a clear cut 30% loss to the content providers. That doesn't mean I don't feel 30% is too large of an amount for subscription services though. A $10 monthly subscription is at least a $2.50 loss to content providers after factoring in processing fees. A 10-15% charge by Apple is probably the most reasonable. A 30% fee is just insane.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Apple's quarterly statements show that their App Store/iTunes (stuff like that) is barely making profit. It's pretty much breaking even.
Well that's not Rhapsody's problem. If the app store isn't solvent and companies like Rhapsody (understandably) don't want to pay a 30% royalty on subscriptions through the store, then Apple should shut down the service.

That will never happen, though. iTunes and the app store have never been about high margins. The whole point is to sell Apple products, which is where the company really makes their money.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
30% takes the business idea i had from like a 140% ROI after 5 years to well under 85%... fts
 

Medu

Member
Mar 9, 2010
149
0
76
Why is Apple doing this crap? Trying to get even more money out of the people that make their apps. This really is ridiculous. 30% is a HUGE cut. Apple forces too much control over everything in their ecosystem. This hurts more than just Rhapsody as it could affect Amazon, Hulu, New York Times, etc. This is basically extortion since there's no other way for you to get the app other than the App Store. This sin't much different than the Microsoft Anti-Trust case.

http://www.engadget.com/2011/02/15/rhapsody-wont-bow-to-apples-subscription-policy-issues-statem/

Tell Apple where to go, go with Android and pay the 10% that Google are charging?!
 

Axon

Platinum Member
Sep 25, 2003
2,541
1
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Apple got to where it is by being very good at business. And brutal though this may be, it is good business. For them.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,472
7,706
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I can see why they're doing this. If they didn't charge for subscriptions or in-app purchases, everyone would just end-around Apple by making the app free, but charging in-app fees to unlock the full app.

There's also the argument that Amazon can sell Kindle books on iOS, but Apple can't sell their books for Kindle. If Apple could (If they even wanted to in the first place is another question.) put their books on the Kindle, they may be more inclined to let Amazon get away without paying.

Either way, 30% seems a little steep, especially for anyone who is already a reseller. The ideal solution to this problem is for books to go DRM-free just like music did. Then it really doesn't matter where they're purchased from because they'll be able to play on any device that supports the format and if it doesn't, it will be easy to convert it to a supported format.

Some people may defect to Google, but that's not much of a victory considering that there are still a large number of countries where Google doesn't allow for paid apps. It's probably not as straightforward and packing up and leaving the iOS ecosystem.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
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Would you say this seems more like Apple being on the user's side than the publisher's side? Yeah I know they get a cut, but still, Apple is trying to make it easier for users correct?
 

AstroManLuca

Lifer
Jun 24, 2004
15,628
5
81
Would you say this seems more like Apple being on the user's side than the publisher's side? Yeah I know they get a cut, but still, Apple is trying to make it easier for users correct?

How is Apple's move helpful to users? The slight extra convenience of being able to sign up from within an app will be far overshadowed by the loss of services (if content providers pull their apps) and an increase in prices (if content providers jack up rates to offset the 30% Apple tax).

This move is good only for Apple, and even that is questionable - it could very well do them more harm than good.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
How is Apple's move helpful to users? The slight extra convenience of being able to sign up from within an app will be far overshadowed by the loss of services (if content providers pull their apps) and an increase in prices (if content providers jack up rates to offset the 30% Apple tax).

This move is good only for Apple, and even that is questionable - it could very well do them more harm than good.

That convenience is for the users. Increase of prices wouldn't happen because of the terms saying the price on the App Store has to be better than or equal to the ones outside the App Store. Content providers won't pull their apps because they're making money on those apps.

All in all, Apple has to pay for App Store upkeep and therefore they need to get a cut. 30% too much? Maybe, but some sort of cut.
 

abaez

Diamond Member
Jan 28, 2000
7,155
1
81
There is a difference between getting a cut on an app versus a subscription. I agree with whatever Apple takes on an app, they have to provide bandwidth and upkeep and whatever.

They do not do *anything* on the upkeep/bandwidth or anything else for subscriptions. The magazine has to do all of the paperwork internally, set them all up, and provide support on that. The only thing Apple does with a subscription is provide the user another avenue to subscribe. After the user clicks "subscribe" all of the work is now with the magazine.

Additionally, Apple doesn't just want a cut on the initial subscription, they want a 30% cut for the lifetime of the subscription. So anytime there is a "automatic" renewal or extension, they will be taking 30% as well.