Revolt on the Right

[PJABBER]

The Democrats are likely to fracture as they always do and they certainly have their own problems with a fragile coalition government that is being led by the Party's radical "progressive" wing, apply whatever labels you might care to. They can only ride so long being "anti-Bush" and the stuff they are doing now is going to see them out of power pretty quickly if a viable alternative is offered.

The problem as I see it is that the Republicans do not have any semblance to the coalition of disparate yet complementary views that characterized their Revolution of 1994. Being "anti-Obama" will only go so far. Adherence to dogma wins only a few contests, being able to craft a resounding message wins more. Having something to actually say gets dominant wins.

As we can see on this board, there are many people that want cradle to grave social welfare. They want universal health care and intrusive government. They see no merit in over-achieving for personal wealth and they only want freedom of speech for themselves. They are pacifists and they are isolationists. They do not believe the American experiment and American exceptionalism count for anything. They reject the founding principles of the nation in their true belief that people elsewhere got it right and we didn't. I hope they are a small minority here in the U.S., but folks similar to them have held majorities, or dominant minorities, in other countries, to their ultimate detriment.

So, do the Republicans adopt the cloak of the Democrats as the Democrats adopted the cloak of the Republicans to win? Or do they stand not only in opposition but with a message that resounds?

The conservatives, the libertarians and the classical liberals can dance to each others tunes if need be without bumping into each other too hard. And I think if they play in concert they can get most of the country, with the above noted exceptions, to join the party.

 

[CallMeJoe]

What can we say about a "Conservative" movement that would spurn Barry Goldwater for rejecting their theocratic dogma? The "Tea Party" movement of today would brand "Mr. Conservative" a RINO and try to run him out of the Party.

 

[Phokus]

Ron Paul and his minions were the only ones consistent on this... the rest of the tea party douchebags got on the bandwagon as soon as a black democrat was elected president.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Oh look another wall of text troll post.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: CrackRabbit
Oh look another wall of text troll post.

But look, it elicited cries of racism! That's when one knows they're on target. It's the argument of last resort. When you have none, shout racism!

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
/SNIP
The problem as I see it is that the Republicans do not have any semblance to the coalition of disparate yet complementary views that characterized their Revolution of 1994. Being "anti-Obama" will only go so far. Adherence to dogma wins only a few contests, being able to craft a resounding message wins more. Having something to actually say gets dominant wins.

As we can see on this board, there are many people that want cradle to grave social welfare. They want universal health care and intrusive government. They see no merit in over-achieving for personal wealth and they only want freedom of speech for themselves. They are pacifists and they are isolationists. They do not believe the American experiment and American exceptionalism count for anything. They reject the founding principles of the nation in their true belief that people elsewhere got it right and we didn't. I hope they are a small minority here in the U.S., but folks similar to them have held majorities, or dominant minorities, in other countries, to their ultimate detriment.
/SNIP

I agree with your first paragraph. As for the second...

All government is intrusive. It's the degree that matters. When I see studies published by reliable scientific institutions like the Harvard Medical School suggesting 45,000 Americans die each year because they do not have health insurance I no longer see a political problem, only a moral one. Universal health care and social welfare programs are about helping your neighbor get through bad times, and you know what, there is nothing more American than that. These programs are not inherently oppressive if designed properly. Sure, if you create them in a way that provides incentives for not working, it's oppressive, but it doesn't have to be like that. Personal responsibility and welfare do not have to be mutually exclusive ideas. We can have both, and we should.

What exactly do you mean by the founding principles of this nation? Our founders lacked courage of convictions, you see evidence in the 3/5ths compromise and not allowing women to vote. I certainly don't want to go back to the good ole days of the 1800s. Slavery, white supremacists, oppressed women, poor education, and an even more static class system. That's what it was, and I have no desire to go back to it.

If you are talking about freedom, the way information flows today should make us more free than any previous generation. We have access to information that will tell us about what works and what doesn't. We know exactly what is going on in Washington if we choose to do it. If we see something work in other countries, there is no reason we should be "stubborn" and ignore it.

If you are talking about the role of federal government in our lives, the founding father's fought viciously over the role of federal government. Our discussions are no different. They worried about the same exact things we do. I will state I do not see local government as any less oppressive than federal government. All you need to do is look at Afghan Warlords to determine that is true. How many American mayors have been found to be getting kickbacks from corporations in the past 2 years?

The tea party movement is totally misguided. The problem isn't with Democrats or Republicans. Those political parties are merely a product of a citizenry that's grown lazy. We are the spoon-fed new media generation, amped up on the someone else's emotions, unable to think for ourmselves. We idolize demagogues like Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, or Olbermann. We are completely incapable, or unwilling, to examine the valid arguments of people who disagree with us. What this country needs is an educated electorate again. The rest of the problems are the effect, not the cause. Fix the cause and the effect will go away.

Do you know what I've seen of these "new age tea party" people? They show up at town hall meetings to SHOUT down their fellow citizens. They are openly trying to discourage civil discourse. That isn't democracy, it's oppression. Freedom of speech doesn't mean you get to silence others. These people are as Un-American as you can possibly get and I wish them nothing but failure. All emotion, no substance. As far as I'm concerned, they can all rot.***

Ultimately, the values you are describing are largely white, male, western European values. Individualism and personal responsibility. That's great for you, but it ignores the numerous other cultures present inside our society, many of whom value collectivism. That doesn't mean you are a racist, and it doesn't mean your values do not matter. It just means you need to stop demonizing the other side and realize some people just approach life in a different way. If you don't agree, fine, but can we please stop demonizing people who think differently than you do?



***I'd like to mention I'm not talking about Ron Paul supporters, the majority of whom I've met are willing to have an open discourse on ideas. I'm sorry your movement was hijacked by a bunch of phonies.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I haven't met a Conservative in a couple decades. I think they all died.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
The Democrats are likely to fracture as they always do and they certainly have their own problems with a fragile coalition government that is being led by the Party's radical "progressive" wing, apply whatever labels you might care to. They can only ride so long being "anti-Bush" and the stuff they are doing now is going to see them out of power pretty quickly if a viable alternative is offered.
/snip

Just wanted to comment that evidence doesn't support you. Republicans approval ratings are at all time lows, despite it seeming like they are "winning." The vast majority of Americans don't think Republicans have the answers, regardless of what they think about Democrats. Fact is, less than 25% of this country is as far right as the Republican party is trying to become.

You should study more about the Democratic party before commenting on it. It may have progressive leaders (such as Pelosi), but it also has center left leaders (Obama is a progressive ideologically, but governs center-left in practice).

A real conservative rebirth would include center left (Blue Dogs) and center right individuals (Powell and 2000 McCain's), unfortunately most of the center-right has been forced to abandon their moderate stances and side with one or the other due to a very vocal minority. Hell, even some far learning right (Specter) were forced out.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I haven't met a Conservative in a couple decades. I think they all died.

I'm telling you, most of them are in the Democratic party.Blue Dog Coalition FTW. Of course they receive most of their money from health insurance industry, so they are being a bunch of fail in the health care debate.

 

[PJABBER]

Carmen, your posts show you to be an advocate of the far left or "progressive" faction of the Democrats. Your advocacy of collectivism and internationalism is disturbing because it hearkens back to a time when such terms were but a facade for the statism and repression of the Soviet Union, all in the name of the common good.

You know, I pretty much think when people start shouting about the "collective" good it is never a good thing.

I don't know how you would label yourself, but as I read your words I see the innocence and the idealism, along with a complete and willful ignorance of the wide variety of thought outside the "collective."

I also see you have absolutely no idea what may make mankind aspire to greatness or to happiness. And this saddens me, because so many have struggled so hard for the right to individual freedoms and the pursuit of individual happiness. And you want to take all of that away.

 

[Lemon law]

I can'y even agree with the first statement PJABBER posted as, " The problem as I see it is that the Republicans do not have any semblance to the coalition of disparate yet complementary views that characterized their Revolution of 1994. Being "anti-Obama" will only go so far. Adherence to dogma wins only a few contests, being able to craft a resounding message wins more. Having something to actually say gets dominant wins.

As we can see on this board, there are many people that want cradle to grave social welfare. They want universal health care and intrusive government. They see no merit in over-achieving for personal wealth and they only want freedom of speech for themselves. They are pacifists and they are isolationists. They do not believe the American experiment and American exceptionalism count for anything. They reject the founding principles of the nation in their true belief that people elsewhere got it right and we didn't. I hope they are a small minority here in the U.S., but folks similar to them have held majorities, or dominant minorities, in other countries, to their ultimate detriment."

While the Newt Gingrich contract with America may have been a brilliant political ploy, the GOP ended up defaulting on every one of their promises. But still the combination of fiscal restrain practiced by GHB and then Clinton, plus a congress that did not overspend or under tax, managed to produce a 12 year period of good governance and culminated with an actual budget surplus.

But still, the disturbing signs were there, the benefits of the good economy were predominately going to only the very rich, while the middle and poor class suffered. Then GWB&co really screwed the pooch, giving massive tax breaks that primarily benefited only the rich, while massively expanding the public debt. At the same time the GOP dismantling the regulations that took over a century to put in place, as a result we got an ENRON, a Western power crisis, and it ultimately resulted in a huge unregulated expansion of the derivatives
market that turned into a 60 trillion dollar gambling casino that damn near collapsed the world economy. The now dunked myth is that de regulation is good for the economy, and we inevitably discover, every time we relax regulation, the very rich rig the system in their favor. If we study the method of people like J.P. Morgan and John Rockefeller, we discover they are not good men of genius, but rather they have manipulated the system which hurts everyone else. And like any biological food chain, when you destroy the base of the Food chain, ultimately everyone suffers, including those at the top. And the same somewhat applies to health care, our employer based system that worked well during the first 30 years past WW2, has been extremely sick since. Suffering from double digit cost increases for the past 25 years, it now costs more than the Federal government itself, and in terms of the bankruptcies of GM and Chysler, their legacy health care costs are a number one cause. Eventually those foreign auto companies making cars in the US will have the same problems,
but it comes far too late to save our auto companies. I certainly do not see conservative republicans talking about the needed reforms, and sadly far too few democrats. Libertarians are hopeless on those issues, but the USA is going to have to get back to a manufacturing base or this country will soon be Kaput.

After eight years of GOP bad governance, they have quite predictably lost power, and now its time to give the democrats the chance to put in place the needed reforms. And instead the GOP has become the party of NYET, and they obstruct all reforms while denying they are the people who broke it.

And what really pisses me off is the PJABBER thesis that the American people are lazy, when its the big business sector that has outsourced American jobs.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: PJABBER
Carmen, your posts show you to be an advocate of the far left or "progressive" faction of the Democrats. Your advocacy of collectivism and internationalism is disturbing because it hearkens back to a time when such terms were but a facade for the statism and repression of the Soviet Union, all in the name of the common good.

You know, I pretty much think when people start shouting about the "collective" good it is never a good thing.

I don't know how you would label yourself, but as I read your words I see the innocence and the idealism, along with a complete and willful ignorance of the wide variety of thought outside the "collective."

I also see you have absolutely no idea what may make mankind aspire to greatness or to happiness. And this saddens me, because so many have struggled so hard for the right to individual freedoms and the pursuit of individual happiness. And you want to take all of that away.

You are projecting your feelings about "progressives" onto me. Stop doing that. Whether I am left or right doesn't matter for what I was talking about, but I'll answer that later.

Let's start at the beginning.Individualism..Collectivism I doubt either one of us falls strictly into either of these definitions. I would point out this line from the article on Collectivism "Democracy, with its emphasis on notions of social contract and the collective will of the people, has been characterized by some as a form of (political) collectivism."

The Soviet Union was a dictatorship. Plain and simple. So is China. A true collectivist society probably has never existed on a scale the size of an entire country.

However, what I was talking about wasn't either of these terms. I was stating that some groups of people in America value community above the individual. They may see your individualistic tendencies as self-centered and selfish. This idea of independence and individualism is very much a white western European male value. Latinos, African Americans, and many of Eastern decent find this type of viewpoint distasteful. Women tend to value relationships over things like career. Many Eastern Europeans also disagree with individualism. As I said earlier, that doesn't make your value good or bad. It's just what they are, and you need to be aware that other people value things differently.

On one position I am far left, and health care is it. My wife and I are cancer survivors. I've had tremendously terrible experiences with privately run HMOs. At the same time, my public-private hybrid plan has been absolutely fantastic. It's managed by Bluecross Blueshield, paid for by Medicaid. I've explained this before, but what you see as oppressive, I see as liberating. Not having to worry about if I will ever be able to get health insurance again? I can't tell you how much more free my life would be if that was true. I could live anywhere, take any job no matter how much it paid, or take any opportunity that presented itself without asking the nagging question: "What do I do if I have a relapse and my health coverage isn't in place?" I'd gladly pay more in taxes to make sure my fellow citizens never have to worry about the things I do.

I'm against government getting involved in a great many aspects of our lives. I do believe the health care reform efforts would make us more free, not less, but you'd have to try viewing it from my perspective to understand that. I have no desire to take someones freedom away. I wouldn't dictate someones career path, what they can or cannot do with their body, or force them into slavery.

I also see you have absolutely no idea what may make mankind aspire to greatness or to happiness. And this saddens me, because so many have struggled so hard for the right to individual freedoms and the pursuit of individual happiness. And you want to take all of that away.

Similar to your statement about returning American to it's "founding principles", this is another statement where I have no idea what you mean. Sure, it sounds nice, but again there is emotion and a lack of substance. You are going to need to explain to me what you think it is that causes mankind to aspire to greatness, because it's entirely possible what you think it is isn't the same thing that I do.

Take capitalism for example. In my view Capitalism tries to motivate mankind to greatness by promising him lots of "things." It says that "you will be happy when you are rich and powerful." I can't tell you how little material things mean to me. Sure, it's nice to have nice stuff, but the things that make me happiest are not things I could buy with any sum of money. I still work hard, even though my chosen career path (Counseling) is not all that financially rewarding for someone who will have eight years of college education. I get much more out of helping people than I do from driving around in a fancy sports car. Capitalism is pretty crappy at rewarding people who like to put others first.

You talk about freedom. What about the "War on Drugs?" I've never done drugs, not because they are illegal, but because I just don't want to. I was educated about the potential harmful effects, and decided myself I didn't want to risk them. Apparently the choices others made weren't good enough, because we now lock up a greater percentage of our citizens than the Soviet Union did at the height of it's power. Yet we still claim to be the "freest country on earth." Just trying to give you some perspective before you continue comparing me to the Soviet Union.

 

[Carmen813]

As for internationalism, you'll need to explain that in a bit more depth as well. I will say this, if I think an idea is a good idea, I think it's a good idea. It doesn't matter if it comes from a Conservative, Progressive, Socialist, Man, Woman, European, Asian, Black, or White. If I like it, I like it. It there is evidence that it works for other people, I see no reason that Americans can't adapt that idea and have it work here. Stubbornness is not something I particularly value. I also don't think an idea has to be "American" to be "good." You should agree with me, because the founding fathers borrowed (or refined) the majority of their ideas based on things they had read from European philosophers.

 

[PJABBER]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, Carmen. I can understand your viewpoint much better now.

I don't think we are as far apart in our thinking as it may seem at first glance. Often it is a matter of degree, as you mentioned before.

I don't have the time right now to reply in depth as I really need to spend some time with the kids, though you deserve as thoughtful a reply as you offered. I'll try to log on later when things quiet down tonight.

You, too, LemonLaw, but where do you get that "American people are lazy" idea from my posts? "Social welfare" often requires harder and longer work, you just don't get to profit from your extra effort as much.

 

[Siddhartha]

OP,

Lets see if you can step away from your continous attacks on Mr Obama et al and provide concrete solutions for the issues that the US faces.

I will start a list, see below, you can add others:

Energy

Education

Foreign policy

Health care

Infrastructure decay

Economy

It is not necessary for you to attack me or who you think I am.

Thank you

Siddhartha

 

[Ausm]

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I haven't met a Conservative in a couple decades. I think they all died.

I'm telling you, most of them are in the Democratic party.Blue Dog Coalition FTW. Of course they receive most of their money from health insurance industry, so they are being a bunch of fail in the health care debate.

Yeah you got that right and they are fucking up our agenda

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Ausm

Originally posted by: Carmen813

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I haven't met a Conservative in a couple decades. I think they all died.

I'm telling you, most of them are in the Democratic party.Blue Dog Coalition FTW. Of course they receive most of their money from health insurance industry, so they are being a bunch of fail in the health care debate.

Yeah you got that right and they are fucking up our agenda

I'm rather glad they aren't supporting your agenda, or rather the legislation posing as health care reform, however one of the fundamental concepts of Conservatives from long ago is the support of the Constitution. None of the supporters of GWB I've known seem to have been particularly bothered by that administrations violation of a document they supposedly support.

 

[Carmen813]

I look forward to seeing your reply. I think it was Reagan who said if someone agrees with you on 80% of the issues, they are a friend, not an enemy. He was a little off the mark, I don't see the opposition as enemies, just as approaching policy differently. It's unlikely we'll agree on much, but that doesn't mean we can't have a good discussion. I do see myself as a progressive (but more like a Blue Dog/New Democrat) but that doesn't mean I don't care about things like the deficit or government becoming oppressive.

As for arguments about the Constitution, I think we all need to take a deep breath and realize that (like anything) some of us just view the Constitution differently. I view the Constitutions strength as it's flexibility. I see it as a living document that was deliberately left vague to encourage political debate. I don't see how I could view the Constitution any other way given that it has survived so much social, economic, political, and global change over the past 225+ years. That doesn't mean I openly ignore what the document says, just that I think many parts of it have multiple interpretations. I also understand some see my view as blasphemy

 

[Vic]

Where were these people for the last eight years?

Conspicuously absent, which is why no one takes them seriously now.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Vic

Where were these people for the last eight years?

Conspicuously absent, which is why no one takes them seriously now.

It takes a Black Man as President to get them out of the woodpile.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Siddhartha
OP,

Lets see if you can step away from your continous attacks on Mr Obama et al and provide concrete solutions for the issues that the US faces.

I will start a list, see below, you can add others:

Energy
We need to work on energy independence. I do not support opening up more drilling, because it costs tremendous amounts of money for a resource that will run out. I want more funding for nuclear power, research into fusion/hydrogen technology, and social policies that encourage energy conservation.I think cap and trade is a good way to do this, because while the pollutant aspects of CO2 can be debated, it is the easiest emission to measure. Using a hybrid market economy that affects peoples wallets is the most effective way to get them to turn off the damn lights. I'm just not sure a recession is the right time to implement it.

Education
We need to rework how schools are funded and how teacher compensation works. School is not all about the test score, and tests are not terribly good instruments for determining intelligence. We should examine if voucher systems can work for K-12 education. We have robust public and private college universities that compete against each other, there is no reason K-12 couldn't work as well. We need to spend more money in school programs that are shown to reduce violence, drug use, and teen pregnancy. I'm sorry, but abstinence only hasn't been shown to work. That will be up to parents to teach. More funding for after-school stuff, like sports and music. However, the biggest change is with parents. We need parents to get involved in their kids lives again. I'm not sure there is anything government can do about that.

For college, we need to expand work study programs, subsidized loans, and offer competitive scholarships/grants. We have to be careful about just increasing student aid, because that will cause universities to just charge more. We should also help out vocational/community students.


Foreign policy
Stop acting like we own the whole damn planet. It weakens our relationships with our allies, spreads our armed forces too thinly, and unfairly burdens our military families. We need to stop fighting wars to "spread Democracy" and focus on defense. We should be using diplomacy first, and violence as an absolute last resort. Our focus should be on improving intelligence gathering, not building bigger bombs. I was Air Force ROTC for a while, our bombs are plenty good enough. I am not opposed to fighting, just unnecessary fighting. I'm looking at you Iraq. As for Afghanistan, we need to define what our objective is. Our mission is too loose. Once we've got that, then make a decision about troop levels. I applaud Obama for taking time to way the pros and cons, there is no need to set an arbitrary deadline to reach a decision as some on the right (Cheney) have suggested. We need to cut military spending, or at least spend our money more intelligently. It's just gotten completely out of control.

Health care
It needs to be fixed. Doctors, patients, hospitals, and insurance companies need to make sacrifices. This isn't one groups fault, singling out one group won't fix the problem. I support an individual mandate, elimination of pre-existing conditions clauses, removal of insurance caps, and a public option that has to negotiate rates with providers (just like a private business). We should focus on preventative medicine, electronic records, and reform malpractice so that doctors aren't paranoid about malpractice. It wouldn't hurt if we offered doctors and nurses some help with their education costs. As someone entering Counseling, I feel we need give Counselors insurance parity with other mental health professionals, such as Psychologists and Social Workers.

Infrastructure decay
The stimulus was too partitioned in an attempt to obtain bipartisan support. It should have focused entirely on energy, transportation, education, and expanding information technology. We need a new energy grid, new power plants, new schools, expanded broadband access, and we needed them 15 years ago. I have no problem taking out $787 billion in loans if we can guarantee a return on that investment. It should be EASY given the incredibly low interest rates the government borrows at.

Economy
This is a big god damn disaster, and my knowledge of economics is fairly limited. Stabilize credit markets, remove regulations that caused sub-prime lending, instill new ones to make sure consumers are being protected. Do more to encourage investment and savings instead of living on credit.

It is not necessary for you to attack me or who you think I am.

Thank you

Siddhartha

See my answers in bold. Some of my stuff aligns with the progressive agenda, some is more center. I consider myself center-left, but mostly I consider myself a pragmatist. I'm willing to sacrifice some of my ideological stances if you are willing to sacrifice some of yours.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Vic

Where were these people for the last eight years?

Conspicuously absent, which is why no one takes them seriously now.

It takes a Black Man as President to get them out of the woodpile.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I disagree that its any kind of a race issue. Obama might be somewhat more effective if he were white, but still Obama has some serious charisma and I am confident his slow but steady advocacy will prevail in the end.

As for the Dick Armey and social conservatives, they spent years sucking on the GWB, Tom Delay, and Abramoff tittty, and now that that milk has gone dry, PJABBERS heroes
engage in revisionist history and drink from the Rush Limbaugh and Sarah Palin titty.

The power of American corporation lobbying is still strong, and corporations will fund FUD to prevent the changes and reforms the American people need.

Race has nothing to do with it.

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Vic

Where were these people for the last eight years?

Conspicuously absent, which is why no one takes them seriously now.

No one takes them seriously yet all we have in the news and on P&N are people taking them very seriously.

Generally speaking, people are less likely to revolt when their side is in power. The centrist Clinton alienated many liberals but there wasn't open rebellion. Bush alienated many conservatives, and besides the Buchanans and Pauls, there wasn't much rebellion. It's just a political truism that there is much more debate, disagreement, and conflict after power is lost. And to me it's a good thing for people to soul search and shake things up to stay fresh.

Many liberals today aren't especially happy with Obama, but they will temper their criticisms to a certain degree because attacking him translates into political weakness... people may not be super happy, but attacking 'their own' bolsters the opposition and is political suicide.

There should have been more public opposition to Bush's policies by Conservatives. I can understand many of the political and psychological reasons there wasn't, but as they say hindsight is 20/20 and I suppose many have learned a lesson.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: cwjerome

Many liberals today aren't especially happy with Obama,

But when they consider the alternative, the morally corrupt and incompetent Republicans well he doesn't seem so bad.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Carmen813
Just wanted to comment that evidence doesn't support you. Republicans approval ratings are at all time lows, despite it seeming like they are "winning." The vast majority of Americans don't think Republicans have the answers, regardless of what they think about Democrats. Fact is, less than 25% of this country is as far right as the Republican party is trying to become.

It hardly seems like the Republican party is "winning." With only 20% of Americans willing to identify themselves as Republicans these days, I'd hardly claim that as a "win" in any sense of the word.