Reverse Bradley Effect

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Democratic Primary Study

As anyone reading P&N regularly knows, polls showing Obama with a lead are regularly dismissed as a result of the so-called "Bradley Effect", which says that people will SAY they are voting for a black candidate when talking to pollsters to sound more PC, but will actually vote for the white candidate. Obama's poll leads have long been called misleading, both in his primary against Hillary Clinton and the current race against McCain, as a result of this effect.

However, the Bradley Effect theory is largely based on Tom Bradley running for governor of California in 1982, where he lost despite a steady lead in the polls. Not only has it been 26 years since that election, and not only is this a national election compared to a statewide one, but one case hardly makes for a good theory.

The study I linked to is a very good argument against the Bradley Effect, almost going so far as to demonstrate a "reverse-Bradley effect" in this election, at least in the Democratic primary. Almost everyone said during the primary against Clinton that Obama would do worse than the polls showed, yet in only 3 of the 32 primaries studied did Obama do worse than the polls predicted. In 12 of them (mostly in the Southeast), he actually did significantly better.

At the very least this suggests that Obama is not affected by the Bradley effect, and it goes a long way toward disproving the effect as the absolute law of political science some people seem to believe it is. But I also find the theory as to why there seems to be a "reverse-Bradley effect" with Obama in some areas of the country.

The explanation for the Bradley Effect assumes that the culturally correct response that voters think pollsters want to hear is that they support the black candidate. Alone in the voting booth, they are free to vote for whoever they want, but talking to another person they want to give the "right" response. But despite all the complaints about how everyone is too PC these days, what if the "right" response in some places isn't the PC one?

California was one of the 3 states where Obama did better in the polls than in the primary, which fits with Bradley's results there and also fits with the stereotypically PC nature of the state. The states where Obama's primary results were BETTER, on the other hand, were mostly located in the southeast, a place famous for being pretty un-PC, especially in regards to race. The theory put forward in this study is that folks in places like Georgia, where the error between poll and primary was 18 percent, think the socially correct answer is that they are voting for the white candidate.

Of course this could all be a bunch of crap, just like applying the Bradley Theory to the current race, but it's an interesting idea...and it raises some interesting questions about how racially PC we really are in this country.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
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I'd say a possibility to your theory is whites in the SE dont buy into PC and just say it how they see it. Instead of putitng on a charade like people in California apparently do. They will do as they say without the guilt people in California feel. Where Californian's will publicly support a black candidate then vote for Clinton.

/shrug
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Farang
Interesting study.. while we are on the topic of debunking the Bradley effect I'd thought I'd throw in today's article about it by someone who was there in '82: http://www.realclearpolitics.c...ffect_selective_m.html

That link doesn't do a good job of 'debunking'
As I posted in another thread, the Bradley effect may be selective. It could depend on whether a state has already had an african american run in a major statewide race, or win a major statewide race.
It may differ in different parts of the country.

A better understanding can be gained by looking at other minorities, especially religious minorities. Basically it comes down to first time, more of an effect, second time less of an effect. Having a minority win an election and be perceived as anything but a failure makes the effect minimal.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
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We will find out this year.

I'd like to think our society has moved beyond the BE but I'll believe it when I see it. I think 15-20% of America just won't vote for a black guy - and hopefully a small minority of that percentage are the 'undecideds'.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
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Originally posted by: techs
Originally posted by: Farang
Interesting study.. while we are on the topic of debunking the Bradley effect I'd thought I'd throw in today's article about it by someone who was there in '82: http://www.realclearpolitics.c...ffect_selective_m.html

That link doesn't do a good job of 'debunking'

Not the best article (that's why I just put it here as an addition) but I think he explained pretty clearly that the Bradley effect is ?theory in search of data.?
 
Oct 16, 1999
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I fully expect there to be a reverse Bradley Effect here in the south. I think it's far more likely to say McCain outwardly and lean Obama inwardly than vice versa around these parts. That's assuming people are actually watching and considering the issues and not voting old/white/republican by default. That of course is the Redneck Effect.
 

Hugh H

Senior member
Jul 11, 2008
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If the Bradley Effect was such a big deal nationwide Obama wouldn't have beaten Hillary Clinton in the primaries.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
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Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
We will find out this year.

I'd like to think our society has moved beyond the BE but I'll believe it when I see it. I think 15-20% of America just won't vote for a black guy - and hopefully a small minority of that percentage are the 'undecideds'.
They've moved beyond the BE but they still won't vote for an Arab Muslim socialist.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: Genx87
I'd say a possibility to your theory is whites in the SE dont buy into PC and just say it how they see it. Instead of putitng on a charade like people in California apparently do. They will do as they say without the guilt people in California feel. Where Californian's will publicly support a black candidate then vote for Clinton.

/shrug

That would certainly be politically convenient, but it doesn't really explain the results. Whites the SE aren't "saying it how they see it", otherwise poll results and primary results should match up. While Californians said they were going to vote for Obama more than they really did, folks in the SE said they were going to vote for Obama LESS than they really did. The same effect could explain both, with the main difference being how different areas define PC or appropriate charades. I'd say they're all full of crap, it's just that folks in California are "guilted" into saying they'll vote for Obama, while folks in the SE are "guilted" into saying they won't.
 

Hugh H

Senior member
Jul 11, 2008
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Originally posted by: piasabird
Obama has to win the core democratic states that Hillary won.


By the same token, Hillary Clinton could have never made Virginia or North Carolina competitive like Obama is doing.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
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The exit polls on election day will answer all of your questions about the bradley effect.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: Ozoned
The exit polls on election day will answer all of your questions about the bradley effect.

No, they won't, that's part of the effect. The election results will answer the questions.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Well, I read P&N frequently and don't seem to recall many pooh-poohing Obama's lead in the polls?

But I dropped in to say that polls should be questioned; however, not for any "Bradley Effect". I don't recall the polls in the last few elections being all that accurate, so I'm doubtful this year too. However, it's because of cell phones (those people can't be polled AFAIK) and other attempts to adjust for accuracy like voter turnout etc.

I think the models they've (pollsters) developed are guesses at best. Will there be a surge in voting by the college-aged and black voters? Will many Repubs stay home? These and other questions remain unanswered.

Fern
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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Originally posted by: Fern
I don't recall the polls in the last few elections being all that accurate

really? Right before the last 2 elections, most polls seem to have had Gore and Bush within a couple points of each other, and Bush over Kerry by 1-2 points, and that's how both turned out, popular vote wise.

 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: Fern
Well, I read P&N frequently and don't seem to recall many pooh-poohing Obama's lead in the polls?
Search for "Bradley effect"...there were quite a few posts talking about it.

But I dropped in to say that polls should be questioned; however, not for any "Bradley Effect". I don't recall the polls in the last few elections being all that accurate, so I'm doubtful this year too. However, it's because of cell phones (those people can't be polled AFAIK) and other attempts to adjust for accuracy like voter turnout etc.

I think the models they've (pollsters) developed are guesses at best. Will there be a surge in voting by the college-aged and black voters? Will many Repubs stay home? These and other questions remain unanswered.

Fern

I remember the discussions about poll "inaccuracy" following the 2004 election, and while I really don't want to rehash that debate, I would like to mention that the issue is that polls do what they say they do, not what people seem to THINK they do. They are useful for ballparking results and identifying trends. They are not crystal balls, they cannot predict the future...and to their credit, they don't claim to. After the 2004 election, for example, almost every complaint about a poll being inaccurate in a particular state showed that the poll was well within the margin of error, the complainer simply didn't understand the term.

In any case, I think the idea that poll are inaccurate is politically convenient one more than anything else. Yes, it's true they don't always perfectly reflect the actual election results, but their inaccuracy seems to be used as a complete dismissal of their results, rather than a word of caution about taking them too literally. In other words, it's worth noting that they aren't perfect if the polls say 49% to 51%, but not when it's 58% to 42%.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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Polls in July, August, and early September are not worth much, but when we are 3 weeks away from the actual election, they tend to get more reliable. But the dominant trend polling now shows, is that the current economic crisis is really hurting McCain, Before McCain said the State of the economy was sound on 9/15/08, Obama had only a slight lead, and since then McCain polling numbers are in steady decline.

As for McCain being the beneficiary of disgruntled Hillary voters, I see no evidence that is happening.

Now McCain is strutting like a popinjay, promising to turn things around, is it empty boast, or actually genuine? Only time will tell as pollsters will now take the pulse of nation with increasing frequency.
 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
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I think it is pointless to look at the Bradley Effect in the primaries because there is likely a similar effect for a woman. There is no need to lie because either chose is a disadvantaged group.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Originally posted by: smack Down
I think it is pointless to look at the Bradley Effect in the primaries because there is likely a similar effect for a woman. There is no need to lie because either chose is a disadvantaged group.

My point was that the "Bradley Effect" is an incredibly overblown theory with little basis in reality. Your argument for why it wouldn't show up in the primary does not seem to have a lot of factual basis either. It does not, for example, explain why Obama did significantly worse in the polls in several states than he did in the primary.

At best I think we can say that people either don't tell the truth all the time in polls, or they change their mind when they step into the voting booth. Theories like the Bradley Effect, suggesting that the polls will ALWAYS be biased a certain way for a certain reason, seem like pseudo-science more than scientific analysis to me.