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Discussion in 'Video Cards and Graphics' started by xtknight, May 19, 2007.
So you say that lg l204wt is easier on the eyes than 206bw>?
There are about three rational explanations for these reviews:
a) they received bad units
b) they failed to review it properly
c) UPS drop-kicked it during delivery
In the case of THG, it was probably an error with the instruments which they used to test the LCD, or a bad unit. Earlier on, THG had given the Viewsonic VP930b an 'A' rating for overdrive control. That was one of the reasons I got the VP930b (according to THG it had only 0-0.5 frames of inaccuracy). Shortly thereafter I discovered many RTC artifacts on the VP930b. On the 20WMGX2, which got a 'C' rating for RTC, I have not seen these artifacts at all through months of using it. I must conclude they either have a flawed testing method or simply a bad unit. I'm leaning towards a flawed testing method since response time is very hard to test quantitatively anymore. The machine may not think the RTC did a good job, but I trust my eyes more than a machine.
The black level of 0.50 that they recorded is fairly indicative of a bad unit. I have about 0.38 nits black with 200 nits white. They failed to mention how the glossy coating drastically improves the quality of black. The poor uniformity test may be due to the higher pressure on the panel in 20WMGX2 units that does not get alleviated for a week or so. I can say with confidence that the uniformity of my panel is not only excellent, but stunning. There appears to be a slight darkening of everything about a centimeter around the whole screen, but this is not more than 5 or 10 nits of difference, I would say, and it could perhaps just be an illusion. Certainly not the 60% brightness results they were getting.
Additionally, I see no problem with watching movies on this display. They all look significantly better than any other LCD in the house. Blacks and dark details pop out great, and the grays seem very neutral. You will see more noise in older films because this display is quite high contrast, but on newer material the high contrast has significant advantages. Even in the older films it's something you can easily ignore. Van Helsing DVD looked awesome on this LCD with dark details being very apparent.
In the case of Maximum PC, they dwelled too much on how it performed on theoretical tests while letting the realistic and representative tests go right over their heads.
Those reviews, to me, seem like blatantly false representations of this LCD's true ability. The only things about this LCD that warrant complaints IMO are the gradation/banding, and the price, if even that. TV quality could be better, speakers could be better, the backlight makes a buzzing noise when it's in standby mode, but these are all non-impeding and minor issues for me.
That Maximum PC cares more about how rigid a grayscale looks than the viewing angles of the LCD, something that affects every single thing displayed, shows their inability to properly assess a display. It doesn't even sound like they were in standard DV mode. The issues with gradation come up in hardly any material except a raw/wide grayscale test. I have had it manifest itself in the Blender 3D modeling program when I had a gray-shaded cube with wide stripes of gray across it, but that can be remedied by: a) changing the color of the cube; b) adjusting the monitor's settings; and c) going in another 3D view or just simply ignoring it. Even if it was a tad unsightly it certainly wasn't a showstopper.
How much of a difference is there between the L226WTX and the L226WTQ? You said that the Q varient may have ghosting issues, how bad is it?
I ask because I'm having trouble finding the other L226WT versions. Newegg has the L226WTX, but it's out of stock ATM, and I don't really want to order it online anyway, since UPS might beat the crap out of it. Best Buy, Fry's, Circuit City, they all have the L226WTQ for a decent price, and I can pick it up in-store.
I'm also looking at the Samsung 266BW, but with my luck I'll get one with a Chi Mei panel.
Great to know.
I'd believe that to be the case, however I have never used either. LG's TN panels tend to be of better quality.
I'm not sure how you expect me to answer this, but as long as many people have said that they have noticed it, I'd say it's probably fairly impeding for playing games and perhaps annoying while watching movies.
I would wait until Newegg gets it in stock. Otherwise I don't know what to say. You could give the Q a test drive from a retailer that doesn't charge a 15% restocking fee, or even one that does.
BenQ FP241W - my current pick for "budget" 24"
BenQ FP241W 6ms G2G 24"WS AU Optronics P-MVA (M240UW01 V0)
...a fraction of the cost of a 24" NEC, and about the same cost as a NEC 20wgx2
...not a S-IPS but supposedly performs better (pic quality/video/gaming response) than a S-PVA 6ms....and reasonably good viewing angle.
Also very interested to see reviews of LED backlit lcd's.
I think it's worth mentioning that Tom's Hardware actually reviewed the 20WGX2, not the 20WMGX2 - the logo is clearly visible in the picture in the 'Connectivity' section. I think there's a distinct possibility that the units without the M had a different panel; I found at least two references on the Net to that effect.
I can say for sure that the new 20WGX2 Pro model, on the other hand, does have the panel indicated in the Guide - I checked it in the service menu. I agree with all of xtknight's points about this monitor. Even on the subject of banding, I was able to achieve gradients with no banding at all on mine, but without calibration; I suppose the calibrator may adjust the gamma to achieve a more uniform gradient overall, and that may introduce a bit of banding in some spots; it's true that the panel is very sensitive to brightness and contrast settings - one step to the left or right on those adjustment bars, and one small band suddenly appears.
Regarding Maximum PC... Are they really calling that article a 'Review'? I mean... with a straight face? Half a page of general statements, of which only one paragraph is dedicated to some sort of performance evaluation, of which no real technical details are given, and that's it - the rest is a list of features? I suppose I can then call my post in the old thread a 'Uber-Super-Ultra-Professional-Expert-Review' - and I always insisted it's nothing of the sort, just some thoughts that may prove useful to other people.
Oh, and I'm going to love reading the reply to the question you posted there - that is, if you'll get any.
A better picture?... on a TN?... you gotta be kidding . I agree your eyes are the most important measure for picture quality, but some things are just beyond subjective evaluation - like the fact that the colors are shifting depending on where they are on the screen and where you stand.
God damn it's hard to find an exceptional 22-24" LCD Display these days! 8O
But anyway, I've been scouring the web for reviews and thoughts on the latest development, as well as LCD pricing and quality.
I've found a smaller range of high-quality LCD's, check out this list below:
http://www.samsung.com/dk/products/moni.../tft21_40/245b.asp?page=Specifications]SyncMaster 24" 245B[/url]
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127306-page,1-c,monitors/article.html]Samsung SyncMaster 24" 244T[/url]
http://www.viewsonic.com/products/desktopdisplays/lcddisplays/xseries/vx2435wm/]ViewSonic 24" Widescreen VX2435wm[/url]
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127372-page,1/article.html]Eizo ColorEdge 24" CE240W[/url]
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127284/article.html]Dell UltraSharp 24" 2407WFP[/url]
I'm very keen on the Samsung 244T Display, but still also in doubt.
The Eizo is supposedly the best LCD Display for fast gaming, but it comes at a very steep price.
Dell Ultrasharp is also supposedly a very good Display.
Anyone has some thoughts on this?
Anyone own any of these LCD's, and would like to add a comment or two?
Right, I can wait ~3 weeks before I have to buy something. If they're not in by then I'll give the WTQ a chance or just buy the Sammy and hope I get an S panel. If not I can always return the thing...
If it helps, I just posted a review of the 226BW "C" Version, that's Chi Mei or CMO, which NewEgg seems to be stocking nearly exclusively at this point.
The colors out of the box have a bad blue shift, but I included color profiles in my review, made with a Spyder2, that have fixed mine dramatically, now I'm very happy with it. The response time is great, I don't notice any ghosting or smearing in CS:S whatsoever.
Following a discussion here some time ago, I just came across a web site that explains the workings of the glossy LCD panels aka Brightview, CrystalBrite, etc.
same here.. i am eyeing VX2235WM, but cannot find good reviews/comparisons versus other brands. Anyone can share their experiences with this brand/model? Is it good for gaming?
This one is a TN, so naturally I would lower its merit immediately.
A good old-timer.
Not sure about this one.
Very likely a high quality display, but its price makes me skeptical of its true value.
Now that's what I'm talkin' about. The latest 2407 rev is very good and a great value (still better is the BenQ FP241W, though it is slower for gaming it has better color).
I would go for the 2407, easily. You may want to consider the FP241W too. If you want to game, go for the 2407. If you like better color, go for the FP241W. I put the FP241W up for multimedia/gaming anyway since 10ms out of 50ms input lag isn't much to sacrifice for better color.
Amazing resource you found there.
The only 22" panels I would go for these days are the ones based off the LG Philips LCD 22" TN. The only one I know of is the LG L226WT/L226WTX and L226WTQ (Q is less desirable due to RTC problems, but not horrible). The CMO-based 22" panels (others) are less desirable yet.
Hey, I like it. One of the best blog reviews I've ever seen, that's for sure, with actual data and profiles and everything. Good job.
Well, I've just bought Nec 20WGX2 Pro. Excellent panel so far, and hell of a difference after old 19" samsung crt.
... but I've found one stuck red subpixel. Not a big deal (after 2 lines of them in trinitrons ), still kinda irritating knowing it's there. I'll try one of those "magic" fixers. Did any of you have any success with them ?
I've personally never had a dead or stuck pixel on the NEC. I have had dead pixels on other monitors but just managed to ignore them. You risk further damage using these "magic" utilities. If you have even one dead pixel, it generally indicates that your panel has been damaged, and by using these utilities you may damage it further to the point where it truly is undesirable. I'd cut my losses if I were you. Running a pixel color cycler on the one specific pixel by isolating it may reduce the damage to the worst case being more dead pixels in the column or row of that pixel.
Well, that's a new thing for me. Never thought that this type of software could worsen things.
I'll try NEC's warranty - panel is one day old after all, but I kinda doubt they will agree to replace it.
Maybe you could link to it in Section 4 of your Master OP "X-Brite/OptiClear/Acer CrystalBrite"
MMM, so generally, antireflective coating/s attempts to improve on antiglare coating.
duss it verk?
I have just purchased the Acer AL2051W after tons of debating and reading/re-reading reviews etc. I'm really excited to get it and fire it up. But I wanted to know what steps if any I should take before I turn it on (let it sit inside and acclimate to room temp, etc).
Also, I'd like to benchmark the panel, but I'm not sure how to do that. If anyone can provide links to programs that test colors, ghosting, etc that would be great.
Can you guys tell me how good lg l204wt, samsung 206bw, HP 2045w and especially NEC 20wgx2 are with this test http://lcdresource.com/tools/blacktest.htm
And what do you know about this new LG L206wtq?
Thanx in advance
Ugh. I went to Mexico for vacation for a week, come back, and now my Mitsu 2070sb 22" CRT is going on the fritz. Colors don't look good and no amount of tweaking helps. Then, all of a sudden, it *pops* back to normal... but then promptly goes back to crap within minutes/hours. I think it's finally going out.
So, today, I've cried a bunch, but now I'm ready to do my research and pick an LCD. I've never owned one, but have used a tiny few, built some systems for family with them, and have used laptops for work for the last 10 years. But, at home, I've always been a CRT-guy.
My wife and I use the machine-- she, mainly for surfing and photo play; me, surfing and gaming. We use a desktop res of 1280x960 to keep things easy on her eyes, but I could handle higher easily (on a 14x10 laptop now). I loved the flexibility of my CRT for gaming resolutions, though I prefer to play at 16x12 (my x19xtx is aging and making that difficult).
I'm nervous about picking out my first LCD and am unsure as to what to get. I feel I want widescreen for the real estate, and because it seems more and more games are starting to support it. Since I've been on a 22" CRT, I feel I should at least be looking at a 20" widescreen LCD, but the 24" are probably not only out of my budget, but also would make it more difficult to game at native res.
The NEC 20WMGX2 sounds enticing (I have 3 Nec-Mitsu CRTs), but it is a bit pricey. But that might be the price to pay for a good LCD. I have no idea. I guess it just seems like a bit of a downgrade from a 22" CRT to a 20" ws LCD. Maybe that's just the CRT-lover in me talking.
I'm also wondering about things like Vsync and whatnot. I've never really needed Vsync since my CRT does 100hz+ at 16x12 and, when raising the eye candy, I never really shot over that. What will it be like with an LCD?
For the benefit of everyone else on this thread, nearly a month ago I purchased an LG 226WT based on the positive reviews and recommendations posted in this thread and others. After making the purchase, I was experiencing ghosting issues which contradicted the reviews I had seen.
A little research exposed that LG subsequently released a "Q" version of the 226WT, with numerous users reporting the very ghosting issue I was experiencing. As it turns out, I had the "Q" model. The common recommendation was to return the "Q" model for a "WT." Granted, the ghosting issue wasn't extremely terrible...more of a distraction...but doing the exchange seemed logical at the time...get essentially the same model, but an earlier revision without the ghosting problem...easy solution, or so I thought.
I managed to find a "WT" at a Circuit City, and made the return. However the WT is not without its share of problems. xtknight directed me to pull up the service menu info on my WT. Here is a brief summary of the discussion points thus far.
LG226WTQ: European users with the "Q" version are not reporting ghosting issues, with a firmware date of mid March. Similarly, these users are reporting that they have LG manufactured panels in their "Q" models. I didn't think to check the service menu on my LG226WTQ before returning it, so I have no idea what firmware or panel version it had. However, I can confirm that Forte Manager, the LG monitor calibration utility, and the device driver, both worked on the "Q" model. It is also reasonable to assume that there may be "Q" models out there now with a firmware fix, and LG panel, that are not experiencing the ghosting issue. After numerous calls to LG, I wasn't able to confirm the source of the ghosting issue, or any fixes that they deployed.
LG226WT: I checked the service menu on my current WT, and I have a CMO and not an LG panel. There is definitely a blue shift in terms of the color, and the color is not nearly as vibrant as on the "Q" model. Similarly, Forte Manager doesn't work with the WT, nor does the device driver. After several calls to LG, they said to simply use the default XP plug and play device driver, and to uninstall Forte Manager. Unfortunately, now I am unable to calibrate my monitor to match the color vibrance of the WTQ, and on top of that, I have found a few dead pixels...granted, dead pixels are probably inevitable, but kind of annoying at this point after hunting all over God's green earth for a WT.
Unfortunately, I cannot simply exchange my WT for another WT because all of the local electronics stores are now stocking WTQs. I was lucky to find the one WT I did, and really dont have the time to go on another LCD hunt.
So here are my options.
1. Exchange my WT for a WTQ yet again, and hope that I receive a later revision model that doesn't have the ghosting issue.
2. Keep my WT and "suck it up."
3. Return my WT to Circuit City, eat the 15% restocking fee (rip-off), and get a Dell 2407 which is now on sale...I went with the LG initially because the Dell was out of my budget, but the recent price reduction and a stackable coupon I have allows me to get the Dell for only $200 more than the LG. Of course, then I have to worry about my GPU not being able to handle a 24" LCD, another factor I considered that resulted in my going the 22" route.
First off I wanted to say this is a great thread and a real benefit to the community. I have been reading it for a while now since I have started thinking about a new moniter for the last month. I had a few questions that perhaps you or one of the other people in this thread can answer.
I currently own a Dell 2005FPW. When I first bought it 2 years ago I went through 2 RMAs until I got one that didn't have the backlight bleed so no problems there. What I wanted to ask about is an increase in "afterimage" that I have been noticing. Not ghosting mind you but more like: I have windowed document with a lot of white open for maybe 2-3 minutes and then I switch to a dark colored image or my desktop background and I see faint outline of the document on my screen for maybe 40 seconds until it finally fades away. Do you have an idea what this is? Is my monitor starting to die? It wasn't always like this and I don't notice anything like that when I move my picture quickly such as playing games but on web surfing its slightly annoying.
I was always told the 2005FPW was a pretty decent monitor. Ignoring the problem I mentioned in 1a, do you think I really stand to benefit at all from moving to a new 22"-24" widescreen? My current moniter does technically meet my needs already of mostly gaming and some movie watching/web surfing.
You mentioned that you are not adding the Samsung 226BW because of the 3-way panel lottery but considering that they only differ in color accuracy and there are now reviews for each version which guide you on how to correct that difference, do you think its worth reconsidering for your list? If you were to place it on your list, where would you place it? Gaming? Multimedia? Xth place?
All the 22" panels seem to be really fast TNs at 1680x1050 and all the 24" panels seem like slower PVA/MVA panels at 1900x1200. Do you think there are any compromises coming in the future like a fast TN 24" at 1900x1200 or a slower PVA/MVA 22" at 1680x1050? I like the idea of a 22"-24" but each size seems to make for compromises. Bigger size + Bigger res + Better Colors [vs] Big size + Same res + Faster response.
I was always told that refresh rate has no effect on LCDs and yet I hear about 100Hz LCDs to come out in the near future. I see 100Hz LCD TVs available for purchase already in other countries. If I remember right, they are not truly 100Hz but use an alternating black/actual image to fix "afterglow"(?). Do you know if we will see these in the near future? I read these TVs "look" better in high speed action. Do you think they are worth waiting for?
>>> Sorry for the long response, I just figured I might as well jam it all in one post.