Retailers Push Amazon on Taxes

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
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http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-bu...tailers-push-amazon-on-taxes?mod=bb-budgeting

Wal-Mart, Target and Others Look to Close Loophole for Online Sellers Amid State-Budget Crises

Wal-Mart Stores Inc. (NYSE: WMT - News), Target Corp. (NYSE: TGT - News) and other large retailers are ratcheting up a political campaign to force Amazon.com Inc. (NASDAQ: AMZN - News) to collect sales taxes, sensing opportunity in the budget crises gripping statehouses nationwide.

The big-box stores are backing a coalition called the Alliance for Main Street Fairness, which is leading efforts to change sales-tax laws in more than a dozen states including Texas and California.

Until now, the group has been largely associated with mom-and-pop stores, spotlighting stories of small toy shops and booksellers who argue Internet merchants that aren't legally required to collect sales taxes enjoy an unfair advantage with shoppers.

Yet the Virginia-based group isn't just working for the little guys. Many of America's largest store chains—including Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy Co. (NYSE: BBY - News), Home Depot Inc. (NYSE: HD - News) and Sears Holdings Corp. (NYSE: SHLD - News)—are involved in the campaign, lobbying legislators and increasingly taking public swipes at Amazon.

"The rules today don't allow brick-and-mortar retailers to compete evenly with online retailers, and that needs to be addressed," said Raul Vazquez, Wal-Mart's executive vice president of global e-commerce.

Amazon has feverishly fought efforts to compel it to collect sales taxes. The Seattle-based online retailer says it complies with the law. Under a 1992 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, only merchants who have a physical presence, such as stores, in a state have to collect sales taxes. Amazon currently gathers those taxes in just five states: Kansas, Kentucky, North Dakota, its home base of Washington, and New York.

But retailers pushed for passage of a new law in Illinois last week that forces Amazon to collect sales taxes if it employs marketing affiliates in the state—a measure similar to a New York law that retailers want to replicate nationally—and their drumbeat may soon spur federal action.

U.S. Sens. Richard Durbin, an Illinois Democrat, and Mike Enzi, a Wyoming Republican, are considering more direct legislation to force online retailers to collect sales taxes, people familiar with the matter said.

Amazon contends store chains are pushing the laws to siphon away its valuable business partners. "These new tax laws affecting affiliates are supported by the large national retailing chains that covet the affiliate advertising programs of their competitors," Paul Misener, Amazon's vice president of public policy, said in a statement. Amazon's affiliates include blogs and other websites that direct shoppers to Amazon's online store, and collect commissions for sales.

Store chains have been complaining for years that online merchants should collect and remit sales taxes.

But retailers are pressing for change with greater vigor this year, given that the recession accelerated a consumer shift to Internet purchases. And with many states facing big budget shortfalls, politicians are eager to increase revenue without raising taxes. Prodding online retailers to collect the money isn't a new levy, proponents argue, since most consumers are already supposed to pay state use taxes on purchases from online-only merchants.

"We're seeing an increased urgency from states trying to make up for lost revenue," said Laura Bishop, Best Buy's senior director of government relations.

The Alliance for Main Street Fairness was formed last spring. Danny Diaz, a member of Washington political-consulting firm FP1 Strategies, who acts as the Alliance's spokesman, declined to disclose whether the majority of its funding came from large retailers.

"It's fair to say that both large and small businesses are active" in the campaign, he said.

Hours after Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn, a Democrat, signed the Internet sales-tax law last week, Amazon cut ties with its roughly 9,000 Illinois affiliates to avoid collection there. Amazon took similar actions in Hawaii, North Carolina and Rhode Island after those states passed legislation similar to the New York law, which Amazon is challenging in court.

Wal-Mart, Sears and other store chains publicly offered to work with the Amazon affiliates. A group representing the affiliates estimates they paid $18 million to Illinois in the form of income taxes, and are likely to see that amount drop by 25% to 30% this year.

Targeting affiliates is just one of the tactics retailers are supporting to pressure Amazon.

In states including Texas and Arkansas, store chains are also backing legislation that seeks to make clear that Amazon must collect sales taxes if it controls in-state warehouses through related companies.

Amazon last month said it would close a Texas distribution center amid a tax dispute with Republican State Comptroller Susan Combs, who contends that Amazon owes $269 million in uncollected sales tax because of the facility's physical presence in the state.

Texas is facing a projected $4.3 billion deficit this fiscal year.

"In Texas we rely heavily on sales taxes, and if we don't protect ourselves from companies creatively structuring themselves to avoid tax collection, we're going to lose a lot of revenue," said the author of the Texas bill, Republican Rep. John Otto.

In California, which faces a $26.6 billion shortfall, only 1% of consumers pay use tax by voluntarily reporting online purchases on tax forms, and $1.1 billion goes uncollected, according to the state's legislative analyst.

"Amazon is choosing to be a bully" by dropping affiliates instead of collecting taxes, said California Assemblywoman Nancy Skinner, a Democrat who is carrying legislation supported by Wal-Mart and other retail chains, similar to what became law in New York and Illinois.

She said her aim is "to help California's revenue... and to create a level playing field for our businesses."
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Amazon still ends up being cheaper.

For the most part, that's why I don't care that NY forced Amazon to collect state sales tax. Sure, like everyone else, I hate paying more, but even with the taxes, it's still cheaper than going to most B&M stores (especially if I don't need it immediately) and you still technically owe the taxes under state use tax laws.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
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Amazon still ends up being cheaper.
Yeah they collect sales tax here in KS and I still buy from them quite a bit. I don't think it would hurt etailers as much as they think, they're still going to be cheaper than B&Ms.
 

xSauronx

Lifer
Jul 14, 2000
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id just buy fewer things overall, as i do most of my shopping online, and most of that with amazon because

a - its cheaper
b - no tax hassle
c - i dont feel like spending my time in a store if i already know what i want
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
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I am strongly in favor of this as a small businessperson.

I have to collect sales tax when I sell an item and it is an unfair advantage to online retailers that do not.

This has led to a situation where my customers have gone out and purchased parts for a new build computer and then bring them to me to assemble them.
It has become a huge problem because people buy incompatible parts, or parts that don't work well together, and they blame me when their machine functions poorly. Literally cpu's that don't fit in the socket of the mobo they bought!
 
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Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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The whole point of sales tax is because the companies use the local infrastructure. Well, no infrastructure is being used here. Ya, they do ship, but the shipping companies already pay taxes for that. Less taxes, more freedom!
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
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I do 95% of my business at Amazon. Great prices, fast shipping, and they have almost anything anyone could want.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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The whole point of sales tax is because the companies use the local infrastructure. Well, no infrastructure is being used here. Ya, they do ship, but the shipping companies already pay taxes for that. Less taxes, more freedom!

Dumbass. Retailers don't pay sales tax; retailers merely collect it. The consumer pays the tax.
 

mcmilljb

Platinum Member
May 17, 2005
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How will they determine the sales tax rate you pay? Are we going to go by the hq's location? The location of the warehouse that ships your products? The billing address? The shipping address? There's more to it then just saying pay a tax.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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Dumbass. Retailers don't pay sales tax; retailers merely collect it. The consumer pays the tax.

And if a retailer forgets to collect sales tax for a whole month from customers, who does the government take the money from? Does the government knock on the customer's door and say "Here's your sales tax bill", or does the government just take it from the retailer's coffers?
 
Dec 10, 2005
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How will they determine the sales tax rate you pay? Are we going to go by the hq's location? The location of the warehouse that ships your products? The billing address? The shipping address? There's more to it then just saying pay a tax.

I bet there are companies out there that you can pay to figure out all the nitty-gritty details. And you'd go by the address that the item was shipped to. Why would you apply CA tax to a purchase going to NY?
 
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And if a retailer forgets to collect sales tax for a whole month from customers, who does the government take the money from? Does the government knock on the customer's door and say "Here's your sales tax bill", or does the government just take it from the retailer's coffers?

Personal responsibility. If the retailer failed to comply with the law, of course it would come from their coffers. Maybe they should have followed the rules.
 

Imp

Lifer
Feb 8, 2000
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Meh, I buy from Amazon Canada because they're cheaper, and we don't have many options anyways. They also have obscure projects that I can order on demand from home. We get raped on sales tax from birth, so that never factors in.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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Personal responsibility. If the retailer failed to comply with the law, of course it would come from their coffers. Maybe they should have followed the rules.

But wait, isn't it the taxpayers who are supposed to pay the tax? If the IRS forgets to send you a tax bill this year, do they eat the bill? No, they just send you the bill next year.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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But wait, isn't it the taxpayers who are supposed to pay the tax? If the IRS forgets to send you a tax bill this year, do they eat the bill? No, they just send you the bill next year.

The IRS doesn't send you a bill for taxes owed. It's your responsibility to file a tax return and pay the amount you owe. If you don't, feel free to wait for a bill along with all the penalties and interest associated with it.

As for sales tax, it is the consumer who pays, but the retailer who collects. If the retailer fails to collect and remit it to the state as required, the retailer is the one who dropped the ball and who will pay. In the event that a retailer is legally not required to collect the tax (as it stands with many catalog and internet orders due to nexus rules), then it is the consumer who will owe the use tax directly to the state.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
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The IRS doesn't send you a bill for taxes owed. It's your responsibility to file a tax return and pay the amount you owe. If you don't, feel free to wait for a bill along with all the penalties and interest associated with it.

As for sales tax, it is the consumer who pays, but the retailer who collects. If the retailer fails to collect and remit it to the state as required, the retailer is the one who dropped the ball and who will pay. In the event that a retailer is legally not required to collect the tax (as it stands with many catalog and internet orders due to nexus rules), then it is the consumer who will owe the use tax directly to the state.

So wait, it is the customer's responsibility to pay but the IRS is responsible for collection right? Same with retailers. Customers pay, retailers collect. My question is, why the fuck are we letting retailers collect taxes? Shouldn't it be the job of the IRS?

BTW, if you feel like paying sales tax, you can pay mine as well. I for one don't like paying taxes to support 100K+ pensions of State workers.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,307
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So wait, it is the customer's responsibility to pay but the IRS is responsible for collection right? Same with retailers. Customers pay, retailers collect. My question is, why the fuck are we letting retailers collect taxes? Shouldn't it be the job of the IRS?

Are you naturally this stupid...or do you have to work at it?

Sales taxes are not collected by, nor owed to, the IRS. Those go to the appropriate state taxing agency. The IRS only deals with income taxes.

The retailer is responsible for collecting sales taxes from the buyer, then passes those on to the state taxing agency. If the retailer doesn't collect those sales taxes, that's their fuck up...and still owe the taxes to the state...Why? Because the law requires them to collect them...it's not voluntary.

Your employer is required by law to collect your payroll taxes...FICA (social security and medicare...his part and yours) as well as all other state and federal payroll taxes...and pass them on to the appropriate taxing agency. If he doesn't collect them...it's on BOTH of you...him for failing to do so...and can and usually will be heavily fined and penalized...but also on you because you are also responsible for paying your taxes. (the employee generally isn't penalized in cases of employer malfeasance, but you're still liable for the taxes, even if no taxes were withheld.)
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Are you naturally this stupid...or do you have to work at it?

Sales taxes are not collected by, nor owed to, the IRS. Those go to the appropriate state taxing agency. The IRS only deals with income taxes.

The retailer is responsible for collecting sales taxes from the buyer, then passes those on to the state taxing agency. If the retailer doesn't collect those sales taxes, that's their fuck up...and still owe the taxes to the state...Why? Because the law requires them to collect them...it's not voluntary.

Your employer is required by law to collect your payroll taxes...FICA (social security and medicare...his part and yours) as well as all other state and federal payroll taxes...and pass them on to the appropriate taxing agency. If he doesn't collect them...it's on BOTH of you...him for failing to do so...and can and usually will be heavily fined and penalized...but also on you because you are also responsible for paying your taxes. (the employee generally isn't penalized in cases of employer malfeasance, but you're still liable for the taxes, even if no taxes were withheld.)

If you like paying taxes so much, I'd be happy to let you pay mine.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
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Why would Amazon collect sales tax for sales made by its affiliates?

If I incorporate in Delaware and only do business from Delaware, I do not pay taxes in California unless I open a branch in California (foreign corporation) even if I sell products/services to companies in California.

If those companies resell my product/service in California then they pay taxes to the state of California.

The affiliate businesses (IE NOT AMAZON) are responsible for collecting the sales tax.

Amazon should tell these states to take a hike. If they have to put affiliates out of business, those companies need to take it up with their state legislature.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
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Personal responsibility. If the retailer failed to comply with the law, of course it would come from their coffers. Maybe they should have followed the rules.

Actually, you would be required to report non taxed shipments as USE tax on many (most?) state tax forms.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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Actually, you would be required to report non taxed shipments as USE tax on many (most?) state tax forms.

True. But I was referring to the specific case where a hypothetical retailer that exists as a B&M store where you purchase an item from. That retailer is obligated to collect the tax. If they don't, they face penalties and might just be forced to pay the taxes out of their own pocket.