Restoring a Soviet Tank Destroyer

[Ronstang]

I always liked the Hetzer. Packed a lot of firepower in a small vehicle that was only around 7 feet tall. The Hetzer was even placed back into production after the war ended for the Swiss.

Yes, the Hetzer was a cool little tank. Kind of a mini Jagdpanzer IV. I built a model of it over 30 years ago. It is somewhere in a box.

 

[dennilfloss]

It was actually the main way the Germans used the Panzer 38(t). It was a pre-WWII Czech tank that the Germans inherited when they stole Czechoslovakia. Although initially they used some as actual tanks they were small and under gunned but had a decently rugged running gear so the Germans tore off the tops of the tanks and simply re-purposed the chassis like you stated. There are some very interesting designed tank destroyers and self propelled guns the Germans built around the Panzer 38(t).

They used the 38(t) as a tank a lot until 1942. It was an important tank during the invasion of France (238 38(t) out of 2574 tanks - mostly Panzer IIs, supplementing the numerous Panzer II as the III &IV were still very scarce due to production problems (lots of prototypes, delays until the main production line finally gets moving).

Production increased and the Wermacht fielded 738 38(t) during the initial part of Operation Barbarossa and it remained in production as a tank until June 1942. Once the 38(t) proved unable to cope with the T-34 & KV-1 (it could fight the BT-7 on equal terms), some were relegated to non-combat occupation duties (as late as mid 1944) or training duties and many were converted to tank destroyers (Marder III, then Hetzer).

 

[dennilfloss]

I always liked the Hetzer. Packed a lot of firepower in a small vehicle that was only around 7 feet tall. The Hetzer was even placed back into production after the war ended for the Swiss.

The Hetzer was 6'10" high, 5" taller than the Jagdpanzer IV and packed less of a punch since it used the same L/48 PaK 39 gun as the Panzer IV (but without a muzzle brake as the barrel was so low that firing the gun produced a big dust cloud, something that happened with the early JPZ IV that had a muzzle brake - the Hetzer used an improved recoil mechanism instead) instead of the long-barrelled Stuk 42 L/70 seen in the Jagdpanzer IV (equivalent to the Panther gun).

(I'm a big Jagdpanzer IV fan. )

 

[dennilfloss]

BTW, I've always had an interest in WWI & WWII tanks, planes and cruisers & battleships.

Here are some pics you might enjoy. I need to post part 2 & 3 someday.

http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=77348

 

[BUTCH1]

Amazing they got it running, the mechanic looked rather unhappy about the smoky interior when it was running. While the massive gun this thing hauled around could blow off the turret of a Tiger it was a poor match one on one with one, all the Tiger would need to do is outflank it as it had no moveable turret..

 

[Brovane]

The Hetzer was 6'10" high, 5" taller than the Jagdpanzer IV and packed less of a punch since it used the same L/48 PaK 39 gun as the Panzer IV (but without a muzzle brake as the barrel was so low that firing the gun produced a big dust cloud, something that happened with the early JPZ IV that had a muzzle brake - the Hetzer used an improved recoil mechanism instead) instead of the long-barrelled Stuk 42 L/70 seen in the Jagdpanzer IV (equivalent to the Panther gun).

(I'm a big Jagdpanzer IV fan. )

The Hetzer was a good use of the 38t chassis to keep the Skoda production lines open. The Hetzer was narrower and not as long as the JagdPanzer IV and it weighed about 10 tons less. It also says something that the Hetzer was so good it was put back into production. Since you are a Jagdpanzer IV fan how serious was nose heavy issue with the Jagdpanzer? From my understanding the 75mmL70 gun put a lot of strain on the front of the tank along with the heavy front armor. I am a big fan of the JagdPanther.

 

[waggy]

You really don't get a good idea on the scale of some of those tanks. I collect 1:72 scale WWII armor, have over 20 tanks at this point, and the Russian KV-2 is the largest by far. Its basically a bunker on treads, and mounts the same gun as the SU-152.

awesome! i see them at hobby usa when i go get models. some of the stuff they have look so realistic it's freaky.

 

[Gibsons]

Here's some info summarized from a couple of my books.

The ML-20S gun in the SU-152/ISU152 was a modified Model 1937 field howitzer not unlike the M-1938/40 L/20 152mm found in the KV-II. Both has slow velocities that made their rounds less suitable for armour penetration. For example, the KV-II gun could penetrate 72mm of steel armour at 1500m. Also the SU-152's fire control was not good for engagements beyond 1000m. What this vehicle was best at was as a well-protected assault gun to support infantry and destroy obstacles in urban situations.

For comparison, the version of the 1938 M-30 122mm howitzer originally fitted in the ISU-122/SU-122 is said too have better armour penetration though I don't have the exact figures. It was followed in subsequent revisions of that assault gun by the more potent 122mm A19 gun and finally by the 122mm D-25S L43 gun which both had slightly better armour penetration.

Also for comparison, the 75mm L/70 KwK 42 gun in the Panther and the 88mm in the Tiger 1 could penetrate 170mm of vertical armour at 1000m. The long-barreled L/71 PaK 43 in the Jagdpanther and Tiger 2 had even better armour penetration. Finally the 128mm PaK 44 L/44 gun in the Jagdtiger could penetrate 230mm of armour at 1000m.

Of course the ammo for guns larger than 88mm was very unwieldy and this led to a much slower rate of fire, something to the detriment of the Jagdtiger and soviet IS-2 & IS-3. Still the larger guns could indeed blow the turret off a tank with explosive rounds if they hit in just the right spot and a 122mm from the D-25T gun in the later IS models did indeed completely pierce the glacis plate of a captured Panther, go through the engine and exit at the rear during a firing test from 1500m. The modified naval 100mm D-10s gun in the SU-100 also possessed slightly better armour-piercing capability than other 122mm soviet guns.

I'm wondering, what happens inside a tank that gets a non-penetrating hit from a 150mm HE round? Gotta be pretty violent.

 

[Brovane]

I'm wondering, what happens inside a tank that gets a non-penetrating hit from a 150mm HE round? Gotta be pretty violent.

It is called spall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall

 

[dennilfloss]

The Hetzer was lighter and did indeed keep the Skoda plant in production and used fewer resources. While a bit shorter, mobility favoured the JgPz IV (28mph road speed, 15mph cross country vs 16mph road speed, 9mph cross country for the Hetzer) because of the 300 vs 158 bhp power plants for their respective weights. However mobility mattered a bit less once the war turned to urban defense for the Germans. Those two tank destroyers were both mobile & concealable enough for hit-and-run in urban warfare. They were not simply mobile pillboxes. The nose heaviness was a problem for the later L/70 gun variants of the JgPZ IV, not the early interim L/48 gun-equipped, mainly because of the longer gun overhang. That was fixed by having the two road wheels on the front bogey completely made of steel rather than being rubber-rimmed. Protection favoured the JgPz IV (for example 80mm driver plate thickness vs 60mm for the Hetzer) as it was about equal to that of the later Panthers.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

I'm wondering, what happens inside a tank that gets a non-penetrating hit from a 150mm HE round? Gotta be pretty violent.

you still get killed about 3 different ways. i'll pass on that.

 

[WT]

I had to check my armor book to make sure the Hetzer was indeed 6'-10" in height. It looks MUCH shorter than that. The Hetzer was arguably the second best tank destroyer the Germans had, only bested by the StuG III. They were cheap to build, offered good performance and the 75mm gun offered adequate penetration. They were not so nice for their crew ... imagine 5 guys jammed into that sloped armor coffin.

 

[Gibsons]

It is called spall. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spall

Doesn't necessarily happen though, vs a conventional (not squash head) HE. Was the German armor spaced at all, that can prevent the flaking sort of spall. I'm guessing it wasn't, but still. Either way, it's hard to imagine what it might be like inside a tank that gets hit like that. If you're a lucky survivor, you might have ruptured eardrums, a concussions, massive bruising, who knows.

There's gotta be some accounts out there... ? :hmm:

 

[dennilfloss]

I had to check my armor book to make sure the Hetzer was indeed 6'-10" in height. It looks MUCH shorter than that. The Hetzer was arguably the second best tank destroyer the Germans had, only bested by the StuG III. They were cheap to build, offered good performance and the 75mm gun offered adequate penetration. They were not so nice for their crew ... imagine 5 guys jammed into that sloped armor coffin.

Hetzer crew was 4. JgPz IV was 5. Both very cramped.

 

[videogames101]

World of Tanks must be misrepresenting the SU-152 if it could truely 1 hit almost all German tanks.

That game was awesome in beta =D

 

[dmcowen674]

That is incredible they got that thing moving again without more restoration work on it.

It wasn't made in China

 

[NikolaeVarius]

It wasn't made in China

Yep. Was made by a good old Stalinist country. None of this state capitalist bullshit.

 

[BladeVenom]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elefant

Unfortunately for both assault guns, their weakness was always being overrun by shock troops who could either burn them with molotov cocktails on the air vents or disable them with sticky mines tossed onto the treads.

I saw the one in the picture, at the museum at Maryland Proving Grounds. It's been a while, but they do not do a good job of preserving those old tanks.

 

[lupi]

you want scary, watch some old film were you can see a hetzer traveling by a group of walking men, and see how tall those guys stand in comparison to the vehicle and wonder how the guys inside feel.

 

[dud]

Very rare find !!! This beast sported a 152mm cannon (equivalent to a 5" like you would find on a WWII destroyer ship) and by its sheer explosive force could separate a tank from its turret. Only downside was the slow reload speed, as it required both a shell and a powder charge to be inserted into the barrel.

A 152mm is equivalent to a 6" gun. 20% more firepower ...

 

[Pray To Jesus]

time to invade Canada

 

[WT]

I saw the one in the picture, at the museum at Maryland Proving Grounds. It's been a while, but they do not do a good job of preserving those old tanks.

Same. Snagged this pic as it sat in their parking lot.

Funny thing was I never realized what it was (thinking it was a more modern SP gun due to its amazing condition). It wasn't until I watched 'Tank Overhaul' and saw it on there that it dawned on me what I had seen. Only 2 exist in the world, one that was at Aberdeen at the time and another in Russia.

I heard rumors that Aberdeen is sending many of their AFVs to a Kentucky museum until they complete a very large hangar capable of preserving many of these poor rusting hulks.

 

[dennilfloss]

That Elephant is modified with a ball machine gun mount up front for local defense. My guess is it's one of the machines that had survived Kursk and were modified and later fought in Italy. The chassis is the Porsche submission that was rejected as the basis for the Tiger 1.

 

[BladeVenom]

I heard rumors that Aberdeen is sending many of their AFVs to a Kentucky museum until they complete a very large hangar capable of preserving many of these poor rusting hulks.

It was over 10 years ago when I was there, and many of the tanks were in a rather sad looking state. They had sent their Tiger tank to Germany, because it was rusting away.

 

[Lanyap]

I drive these things all the time in BF1942 Forgotten Hope mod.