Residential Solar Panels

[MagnusTheBrewer]

What the hell do you want, catch - free easy power? That's the problem with this country, there's a large, vocal minority of coddled wusses who want everything to be cheap and easy. It doesn't work like that. The standard of living in this country is insustainable, with the growing world population consuming more of a limited energy supply. I support your solar panel project buddy, but people have to understand that solar energy is not a revolving door from the electric grid. You can complain about it now or stick your head in the sand, but sooner or later someone's going to have to pay.

You might want to reread my posts. I'm agreeing with you.

So why worry, when it makes sense it will make sense. Until then you are not going to switch without massive cost, money spent on such inefficient systems could have been money spent on things like education or other infrastructure. Its just a poor investment to jump the gun. We moved from burning wood to coal to oil, once the new tech is ready it becomes self evidence, no one had to say hey, stop burning the trees and riding horses or we'll force you to switch, people switched when it made sense.

So what do you think someone from 1800 would have predicted for their grandchildren? Tree shortage? A nation over run by horses and horse shit?

The big difference between the shift from wood to coal and an industrialized America versus oil is twofold. First, wood and coal were readily available in the U.S. and provided work for many U.S. citizens while oil is not and does not. Second, at the time industrialization occurred, there was no shortage of wood and coal and another country didn't decide how much a ton of coal cost.

The whole point I'm trying to convey is that we live in a world many times more complex than even our recent past and we should PLAN our future rather than react to it. We've got ATOTers who can't cook for themselves or do their own laundry and you expect them to save our sorry asses when we have to switch from oil?

 

[Anonemous]

whoops wrong post

 

[IGBT]

if you need to go solar the better business model is to lease. The panels are in a constant state of decay. A lease agreement to purchase power from the panels rather then own the panels shifts the inevitable hardware replacement costs to the contractor/provider.

 

[lothar]

if you need to go solar the better business model is to lease. The panels are in a constant state of decay. A lease agreement to purchase power from the panels rather then own the panels shifts the inevitable hardware replacement costs to the contractor/provider.

You sure about that?
http://www.solarleasedisadvantages.com/

 

[0roo0roo]

You might want to reread my posts. I'm agreeing with you.


The big difference between the shift from wood to coal and an industrialized America versus oil is twofold. First, wood and coal were readily available in the U.S. and provided work for many U.S. citizens while oil is not and does not. Second, at the time industrialization occurred, there was no shortage of wood and coal and another country didn't decide how much a ton of coal cost.

The whole point I'm trying to convey is that we live in a world many times more complex than even our recent past and we should PLAN our future rather than react to it. We've got ATOTers who can't cook for themselves or do their own laundry and you expect them to save our sorry asses when we have to switch from oil?

Switching to high labor resource is not good, every improvement has been based on switching to more efficient production, thus fewer jobs. there didn't need to be a shortage, cooking your food over fire wood is a freaking pain, the benefits of moving to new sources was self evident. your planning can be based on arrogance, the plans of folks 150 years ago or even 100 years ago would not make any sense at all because they would be projecting from their own times, unable to see the developments in technology...computers, internet, those would have simply not been on the table 100 years ago. You aren't planning if you are pushing towards some technology that is obviously not ready for deployment, if you try to skip ahead of the technology you will just end up wasting your time. Look at france with the minitel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel the government tried to pick a winner, and ended up retarding the growth of the internet in france.

 

[IGBT]

You sure about that?
http://www.solarleasedisadvantages.com/

more then likely you will have to replace panels/hardware in 10 years or less. The panel output will be below anything useable and cost effective And who would want to own decayed deteriorated weather beaten solar junk 10 years down the road? Just when it's paid for you'll have to replace it. The 20 year/75% output is shelf life. Not on the roof life.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I have friends that are "off the grid". They are actually on it but their meter runs backwards. PG&E won't buy the power any more but credits you for it.

It cost them $80,000 for the system with a $40,000 rebate. It will take them about 16 years in to recoup the cost. That's not including maintenance and replacement batteries.

Battery? Convert and feed the grid, use the grid at night.

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,1205726,00.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/05/dow-solar-idAFN0536825520091005?rpc=44

this be the way to go.

 

[Thebobo]

Fairly interesting site. This guy gets 4kW out of his hydro setup and thinks he can take it up to 10kW.

http://ludens.cl/paradise/turbine/turbine.html

Wow amazing, his page has lots of other cool stuff

 

[Tsaico]

Back to the OP, I just got my latest bill yesterday, it was for 8 bucks. Same time last year, $235.61.

 

[ChAoTiCpInOy]

Back to the OP, I just got my latest bill yesterday, it was for 8 bucks. Same time last year, $235.61.

Damn. Even in the winter? Where are you at?

 

[Apex]

more then likely you will have to replace panels/hardware in 10 years or less. The panel output will be below anything useable and cost effective And who would want to own decayed deteriorated weather beaten solar junk 10 years down the road? Just when it's paid for you'll have to replace it. The 20 year/75% output is shelf life. Not on the roof life.

Why would you need to replace panels in 10 years? Virtually every single panel out these days has an 20-25 year warranty to 80% rated power output.

For what it's worth:

http://homepower.com/article/?file=HP118_pg12_AskTheExperts_1

PV warranties typically allow for 20 percent output degradation over the module’s 20- to 25-year warranty life. But measurements of many modules put into service in the 1980s show that it’s unusual to see even half that much degradation. Many of those earliest modules still perform to their original specifications. It is safe to say that modules carrying warranties of 20 years or more have a high probability of working well 30 years from now.

The worst case senario 90+% output is still easily usable and cost effective, IMHO.

 

[McLovin]

more then likely you will have to replace panels/hardware in 10 years or less. The panel output will be below anything useable and cost effective And who would want to own decayed deteriorated weather beaten solar junk 10 years down the road? Just when it's paid for you'll have to replace it. The 20 year/75% output is shelf life. Not on the roof life.

That is an absolute lie.

Why would you need to replace panels in 10 years? Virtually every single panel out these days has an 20-25 year warranty to 80% rated power output.

For what it's worth:

http://homepower.com/article/?file=H...skTheExperts_1

Quote:
PV warranties typically allow for 20 percent output degradation over the module’s 20- to 25-year warranty life. But measurements of many modules put into service in the 1980s show that it’s unusual to see even half that much degradation. Many of those earliest modules still perform to their original specifications. It is safe to say that modules carrying warranties of 20 years or more have a high probability of working well 30 years from now.
The worst case senario 90+% output is still easily usable and cost effective, IMHO.

Well said :thumbsup:

We primarily use Mage Solar panels and they have a 30 year efficiency warranty.

We also primarily use Enphase Energy M-215 Micro-Inverters at each panel and those carry a 25 year warranty.

We just completed a job at Superior Tire in Kingman, AZ today, installing 232 Mage Solar Modules/Enphase Micro-Inverters and while they are tied into the grid, they will be totally self sufficient. We are also providing the customer with monitoring equipment so they can see what the exact output of each module/inverter is. Pretty cool stuff!

Check out these public systems using the same equipment.

 

[Apex]

We also primarily use Enphase Energy M-215 Micro-Inverters at each panel and those carry a 25 year warranty.
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Very nice! I went with a traditional central inverter for my home (budget concern and never any shade on roof), but I was very tempted by micro inverters.

 

[lothar]

more then likely you will have to replace panels/hardware in 10 years or less. The panel output will be below anything useable and cost effective And who would want to own decayed deteriorated weather beaten solar junk 10 years down the road? Just when it's paid for you'll have to replace it. The 20 year/75% output is shelf life. Not on the roof life.

Any proof of this?
It's like saying more than likely you will replace your new car in 5-10 years. Just because most Americans do doesn't mean I will...I will drive mine for 15 years at least.

If buying outright is so stupid, then why do these solar companies even offer it as an option?
Based on what you're saying, then that means leasing is a win-win for both the consumer and the solar companies.

So all these solar companies offering 80% efficiency warranties over 25 years are doing it for the goodness of their hearts?

Your statements don't make any sense.

 

[McLovin]

Very nice! I went with a traditional central inverter for my home (budget concern and never any shade on roof), but I was very tempted by micro inverters.

Sweet. If you don't mind me asking, what modules/inverters did you end up going with? What part of the country are you in?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Any proof of this?
It's like saying more than likely you will replace your new car in 5-10 years. Just because most Americans do doesn't mean I will...I will drive mine for 15 years at least.

If buying outright is so stupid, then why do these solar companies even offer it as an option?
Based on what you're saying, then that means leasing is a win-win for both the consumer and the solar companies.

So all these solar companies offering 80% efficiency warranties over 25 years are doing it for the goodness of their hearts?

Your statements don't make any sense.

The over head of becoming an expert on filing for all the possible tax-breaks is very high.

 

[Apex]

Sweet. If you don't mind me asking, what modules/inverters did you end up going with? What part of the country are you in?

We have a smallish 6.5kw system using 235w Kyocera KD235GX-LFB and a Sunny Boy 6000US in SoCal.

So far, so good:

It was only projected to take care of about 70% of our $300-350 per month bill, but it turns out it's covering the entire thing and more. Since the bill passed to sell net monthly production back to the utility, we'll actually be getting paid for most of the year.