Request for the NVIDIA focus group members...

[nitromullet]

Since it seems that we here at AT forums have a growing number of individuals that are part of the NVIDIA focus group and that one of the stated goals of this group is to act as a liaison between us and NVIDIA, I figured that I would put forth a request.

Not sure if anyone else has noticed this or not, but the last WHQL driver available directly from NVIDIA that supports the 8-series cards is almost 3 months old. In contrast to that the 9-series of cards appears to be getting new drivers on a regular basis, which incidentally function just fine with the 8-series cards (with an inf edit) and provide a few additional features as well.

Among these features include:

-Actual functioning forcing of AA from the CP. This simply doesn't work with the WHQL 8-series driver and Vista x64. It's possible that other profile options don't work either, but the lack of AA forcing is obvious.
-Pre-defined SLI profiles that consist of something other than "single GPU" as the predefined SLI option for every game.
-CP interface option to only display driver profiles for games that you have installed. Very nice feature for those of us running a few less games that the gazillion present in the CP.

So, my request is this: Can you guys circle back with NVIDIA to find out what the deal is with 8-series drivers?

Specifically...

Are these cards no longer supported? Are 8-series owners not supposed to expect anymore driver updates?

Why are the 8-series cards not included in the new driver inf files? They clearly work with the new drivers not to mention the fact that NVIDIA's newest flagship card is based on the EXACT same gpu as some of the 8-series cards?

Even if the gpus were different, why isn't NVIDIA making the interface tweaks to the CP available to 8-series owners, or fixing the issue with forcing AA for 8-series owners?

Does NVIDIA really find it an acceptable customer experience that I have to modify a driver's inf file to obtain fixes and features supported by the hardware I paid for?

Thanks in advance to nRollo and Keys for their help with this. I know you guys will do your best to get a straight answer. Also, I understand that you guys aren't NVIDIA, so I won't hold any answers I don't like or any questions not answered against you.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Seconded. I've been checking NVidia daily for new drivers; given that new ones are 'leaked' every few days, an official release would be nice.

I love the hardware... but the software support of late has been nothing short of horrendous.

 

[ArchAngel777]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman
Seconded. I've been checking NVidia daily for new drivers; given that new ones are 'leaked' every few days, an official release would be nice.

I love the hardware... but the software support of late has been nothing short of horrendous.

Thirded... If that is a word... Great post OP and something I really want to know as well.

 

[MarcVenice]

I kinda checked btw, and I don't actually think AA forcing is working, EVEN with the modded files, 174.31. I tried in Frontlines: Fuel of War, Unreal 3 Engine, and used 4x aa and 4x AF, but saw nothing different, jaggies all over the place, especially on vertical 'tower' like things, annoyed me quite a bit

 

[Twsmit]

My cynical self thinks it's all marketing. They want to keep reviewers stuck on old drivers to help widen the performance gap between the 8800s and 9800s. oh well...

 

[nismotigerwvu]

Originally posted by: Twsmit
My cynical self thinks it's all marketing. They want to keep reviewers stuck on old drivers to help widen the performance gap between the 8800s and 9800s. oh well...

agreed

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I kinda checked btw, and I don't actually think AA forcing is working, EVEN with the modded files, 174.31. I tried in Frontlines: Fuel of War, Unreal 3 Engine, and used 4x aa and 4x AF, but saw nothing different, jaggies all over the place, especially on vertical 'tower' like things, annoyed me quite a bit

It works with the 174.31 driver in UT3 for me. It doesn't with the 169.xx drivers.

 

[vanvock]

Good luck with this but don't hold your breath. I think they (nV) have proven over the last year & a half that they just don't give a damn.

 

[SniperDaws]

This is one of the reasons i bought the 9600GT over the 8800GT, the 8 series is gonna get no support now the 9 series is here.


Oh and look here new drivers for me wooohooo

http://downloads.guru3d.com/Fo...t-)-download-1884.html


lol


Seriously though this happened when the 8800 Series came out, the 8 series cards got thier own drivers and then they became unified once again so itll happen again soon.

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: SniperDaws
This is one of the reasons i bought the 9600GT over the 8800GT, the 8 series is gonna get no support now the 9 series is here.


Oh and look here new drivers for me wooohooo

http://downloads.guru3d.com/Fo...t-)-download-1884.html


lol


Seriously though this happened when the 8800 Series came out, the 8 series cards got thier own drivers and then they became unified once again so itll happen again soon.

I could excuse NVidia for that because the 8 series was such a radical change. This is a refresh.

Their support just isn't cutting it right now. I never once had issues like this with my 9800 Pro.

 

[nRollo]

I'll forward it to on Nitro, NP.

:beer:

 

[BFG10K]

My cynical self thinks it's all marketing. They want to keep reviewers stuck on old drivers to help widen the performance gap between the 8800s and 9800s. oh well...

My thoughts exactly. We know the 17xx drivers are faster with AA but I doubt nVidia will release them for older cards while the 9600 GT and 9800 GX2 are "hot" to make the gap appear larger.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: nRollo
I'll forward it to on Nitro, NP.

:beer:

Thanks.

Originally posted by: SniperDaws
This is one of the reasons i bought the 9600GT over the 8800GT, the 8 series is gonna get no support now the 9 series is here.


Oh and look here new drivers for me wooohooo

http://downloads.guru3d.com/Fo...t-)-download-1884.html


lol


Seriously though this happened when the 8800 Series came out, the 8 series cards got thier own drivers and then they became unified once again so itll happen again soon.

I didn't realize that the current 7-series was the same as the 8-series. Interesting... At least that bodes well for long term support.

The thing is that when the 8800GTX and GTS first hit, it wasn't even if question of whether I wanted it or not. The 8-series were expensive, but they were a big step up from the 7-series. This isn't really the case with the 8 to 9-series. The cores on the 8800GT, 8800GTS, and the 9800GX2 are all G92 cores, and the forthcoming 9800GTX is a G92 based card also.

/change of topic...

I noticed something else when modding the inf files. You can get the new 174.53's to install, but they won't run DX10 with an 8-series card for some reason.

These guys ran into the same problem. http://www.techarp.com/showarticle.aspx?artno=519

However, the 174.31 drivers that I got from start64.com work fine in DX10 on my 8800GTX and ran DX10 fine on my 8800GTs as well. Note: the inf file was already modded on this driver, it's possible that whoever modded it knows more about inf files than I do.

 

[bryanW1995]

this is scary stuff. I don't blame nvidia for trying to sell their newer cards, but this sort of thing does make me happy that I went with the 3870 instead of 8800gt.

 

[SniperDaws]

Just because my little 9600GT is getting drivers everyone keeps picking on him, its not fair, its not his fault he wants to play with the big boys.

 

[ROEHUNTER]

I just came from the ATI camp . While I love the card that I have now I am really "confused" about the Nvidia driver situation . At first I was trying every new driver that came out , but got tired of changing drivers on a daily basis and just went back to Nvidia released drivers. Using the 169.44's now.

I find it disheartening that the last "official" driver for the 8800's was released in December of LAST YEAR!!!!!!

 

[nRollo]

OK, here's what I found out.

NVIDIA is constantly working on newer drivers for the 6, 7, and 8 series cards.

They said they have as many engineers writing drivers for these cards as they do on the 9-series. They also said it?s faster to QA drivers for a single card than a full line-up of cards, which is why we get a new driver early with a new card. After they complete QA for all cards, they release the driver that supports all products.

Furthermore, they said the new drivers will include a lot of bug fixes and perf optimizations as well as the CP enhancements and other features in the new drivers.

The NV guys say they?re expecting to release a beta version very soon - within the next couple of weeks.


So, there you have it- no conspiracy to make new products look good, just need to get drivers out for new products first.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: nRollo
OK, here's what I found out.

NVIDIA is constantly working on newer drivers for the 6, 7, and 8 series cards.

They said they have as many engineers writing drivers for these cards as they do on the 9-series. They also said it?s faster to QA drivers for a single card than a full line-up of cards, which is why we get a new driver early with a new card. After they complete QA for all cards, they release the driver that supports all products.

Furthermore, they said the new drivers will include a lot of bug fixes and perf optimizations as well as the CP enhancements and other features in the new drivers.

The NV guys say they?re expecting to release a beta version very soon - within the next couple of weeks.


So, there you have it- no conspiracy to make new products look good, just need to get drivers out for new products first.

Thanks, now ask them for the specs on the GT200

 

[NYHoustonman]

Originally posted by: nRollo
OK, here's what I found out.

NVIDIA is constantly working on newer drivers for the 6, 7, and 8 series cards.

They said they have as many engineers writing drivers for these cards as they do on the 9-series. They also said it?s faster to QA drivers for a single card than a full line-up of cards, which is why we get a new driver early with a new card. After they complete QA for all cards, they release the driver that supports all products.

Furthermore, they said the new drivers will include a lot of bug fixes and perf optimizations as well as the CP enhancements and other features in the new drivers.

The NV guys say they?re expecting to release a beta version very soon - within the next couple of weeks.


So, there you have it- no conspiracy to make new products look good, just need to get drivers out for new products first.

I understand pushing out drivers for newer cards so they actually work, but I'm not sure I buy the rest of that. A beta in the next few weeks really isn't the response I was hoping for here. Given that the 9000-series isn't that different outside of the GX2, do they really need to put that much effort into that series as opposed to the 8's (assuming you worded that correctly... # of workers on 6 + 7 + 8 = 9?)? Put another way, if they have the drivers working on a card like the 9600 GT, should it really take multiple weeks just to put out a Beta? Hell, they're leaking 2-3 betas a week and have been for over a month now...

 

[ArchAngel777]

There is some truth to the response Rollo has been given. They cannot release official drivers before all cards are tested for a certain series. However, this doesn't and wouldn't apply to 'betas' from a Quality Assurance perspective. I work closely with our Q & A manager and the fact is, priority is given with some products over another, just no officially. So while they may have the same number of people working on these 'three' teams so to speak, the quality of these people is probably much like that of someone who can change oil, versus someone who can rebuild your engine.

Anyway, for official release drivers they do have to test them, I believe that 100%. But because there are beta leaks for the 9X series, there is absolutely no reason they cannot include the other 8X series in the INF.

So we have some truth mixed in here making it muddy. The fact is, if nVidia released these drivers for the 8X series, then the 9X series wouldn't look as good. That is a fact and if you think for a minute nVidia isn't doing that, you really need to get out more and understand business. The success of the 9X series will be the drivers and if that means purposely excluding the 8X series, nVidia will gladly do it. But the same could be said for AMD/ATi as well. They would do the same thing if the position was reversed.

One could argue that nVidia is doing nothing wrong, because when they sold you the product (8X series) that you are receiving the same performance as when you purchased it and are not entitled to performance enhancements after the fact. But, I don't really think that is ethical, IMO.

The fact is, the 9800GTX and the 9800GX2 are not worthy to bear the 9X name, IMO.

 

[Piuc2020]

While it may be true NVIDIA is purposefully delaying the drivers for the 8-series to sway early benchmarks in favor of the 9 series I don't think that they'll NEVER come to the 8-series.

I actually think the 9 series card are pretty good, the 9600GT is insanely affordable and insanely fast, the 8800GT (9800GT probably) is only a bit more expensive and packs quite a punch, the 9800GTX is more or less faster than the ultra for half the price and the 9800GX2 is the same price as the Ultra yet it outperforms it heavily, not to mention, the people with lot of money can now access Quad-SLI 9800GX2 which brings huge performance gains to the table, even if it isn't exactly wallet-friendly.

These 9 cards can play anything out there just fine, Crysis is one of the few games these cards struggle with at resolutions higher than 1600x1200 but still, the game is pretty advanced for it's time.

I don't think anyone should complain about the 9 series, being able to get a DX10 card that plays most games out there at full settings at only $150 is extraordinary, sure they are hardly a revolution in performance (but to be honest, we don't really need one yet, like I said, the G92 is perfectly fine for every game out there) but they are a huge revolution in pricing, with the E8400s and the 9600GT pricing it would seem stupid for someone to complain about the price of PC gaming.

For those hungry for more performance (which we don't need apart from high resolution monitors) you can always opt for SLI setups (which are now cheaper) or go all the way for a Quad SLI 9800GX2.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: NYHoustonman

Originally posted by: nRollo
OK, here's what I found out.

NVIDIA is constantly working on newer drivers for the 6, 7, and 8 series cards.

They said they have as many engineers writing drivers for these cards as they do on the 9-series. They also said it?s faster to QA drivers for a single card than a full line-up of cards, which is why we get a new driver early with a new card. After they complete QA for all cards, they release the driver that supports all products.

Furthermore, they said the new drivers will include a lot of bug fixes and perf optimizations as well as the CP enhancements and other features in the new drivers.

The NV guys say they?re expecting to release a beta version very soon - within the next couple of weeks.


So, there you have it- no conspiracy to make new products look good, just need to get drivers out for new products first.

I understand pushing out drivers for newer cards so they actually work, but I'm not sure I buy the rest of that. A beta in the next few weeks really isn't the response I was hoping for here. Given that the 9000-series isn't that different outside of the GX2, do they really need to put that much effort into that series as opposed to the 8's (assuming you worded that correctly... # of workers on 6 + 7 + 8 = 9?)? Put another way, if they have the drivers working on a card like the 9600 GT, should it really take multiple weeks just to put out a Beta? Hell, they're leaking 2-3 betas a week and have been for over a month now...

NVIDIA doesn't leak betas, devs and people like me who have access to beta drivers do. (well, not people like me, because I don't, but people who get access for reasons other than development like me) Leaked drivers aren't finished, and NVIDIA wishes they weren't leaked.

Beta drivers have been through the same QA as WHQL, they just haven't been through the costly MS signing process.

 

[bryanW1995]

while it's certainly possible that amd would do the same thing nvidia was doing if their situations were reversed, it's also true that amd's last gen cards (x19xx series) have had more "staying power" than their nvidia equivalents. That factored heavily into my decision to go with 3870. I must admit that recently I've been amazed at the pricing on 8800gt, especially that msi OC edition for under $200, but I'd rather have a card that gets better over time through driver optimizations than a card that is hamstrung indefinitely so that the manufacturer can sell more "new" cards. I don't doubt that rollo's statement was 100% factually correct, but as many others here have mentioned, it is often very easy to be completely honest and yet still (wittingly or not) withold information that could be salient.

 

[Twsmit]

While I doubt this is any sort of conspiracy the facts remain that the 8800's haven't had a driver update in 3 months. Whatever Nvidia's reasoning behind their actions, the fact remains that the 9xxx series is getting weekly updates and the 8800 is not. Reviews are being written as we speak and initial customer impressions are being made right now. It's in Nvidia's best interest to make their new products shine and withholding driver updates for older cards that are 98% the same architecture the end result creates an artificial performance gap.

While I don't doubt engineers and the like have legitimate reasons, I am skeptical that this is purely an engineering decision. Looks to me like it is at least partially driven by marketing.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: nRollo
OK, here's what I found out.

NVIDIA is constantly working on newer drivers for the 6, 7, and 8 series cards.

They said they have as many engineers writing drivers for these cards as they do on the 9-series. They also said it?s faster to QA drivers for a single card than a full line-up of cards, which is why we get a new driver early with a new card. After they complete QA for all cards, they release the driver that supports all products.

Furthermore, they said the new drivers will include a lot of bug fixes and perf optimizations as well as the CP enhancements and other features in the new drivers.

The NV guys say they?re expecting to release a beta version very soon - within the next couple of weeks.


So, there you have it- no conspiracy to make new products look good, just need to get drivers out for new products first.

Thanks for the update. I guess we'll see how long it takes.