Republicans STILL don't have a clue.

[Jessica69]

But no matter how much one cuts corporate taxes or taxes on startups or capital gains, unless there is demand for goods, it'll do no good at all.

No company is going to go out and just start employing people just because a new tax cut got instituted for them if there is falling demand for their goods/services.

I never have understood how a top-down stimulus is supposed to sustain itself........it'd make much more sense to stimulate bottom up. Create the demand for goods by loosening the credit that's bound up tighter than hell right now.

Consumer confidence is down, retail sales are contracting, and you want to give the "impetus" to the top.....where it'll stick and do almost little to no good to actually stimulate what drives this economy---consumer spending. This, our U.S. economy, has always been about consumer spending and it still is.......any stimulus to do any good right now has to ramp up spending by consumers, for no matter how many tax breaks you give business, that tact will fail without the consumer spending rising ahead of that.

No consumer spending, no business hiring......no businessperson worth his or her salt would hire to fill positions that weren't needed to meet increasing demand due to spending by consumers.....to say otherwise is a joke.....or is all business just philanthropic in their hiring?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yeah terrible letting people keep more of their hard earned money isnt it? What are those republicans thinking?

The problem is that for republicans, "people" means "very rich people". Us middle class types don't really count.

Which party controlled the Congress who bailed out rich Wall Street bankers? Couldn't have been the Dems, could it? You really think they're much different?

Since when does acting on the advice of nearly every economist across the ideological spectrum equate to some sort of statement about a party's fundamental principles about wealth and taxation?

Republicans purposefully attempt to cut taxes for the richest Americans. Depending on your ideology that isn't a bad thing. To say that the two parties aren't much different on the issue of taxation is silly though.

 

[Docnasty]

Originally posted by: irwincur
The problem with this is that spending may create a few jobs, but they are typically low paying and short lived. Is the government going to employ indefinitely for work that for the most part can be completed in a relatively short period of time? What then, fire everyone and start over with another pork bill to 'stimulate' more short term employment. It is not a long term solution to employment.

On the other hand, as stated above, look at who actually employs people. I own a business, and trust me, right now there are no incentives for me to hire. I have more government costs, taxes do go up when payroll taxes are increased (like SS), and it is likely that the costs of this bill will probably have the effect of increasing corporate taxes. Trust me, corporate taxes are not killing me, it is payroll taxes (those for me and my employees) and other government 'taxes' - like required licenses, fees, etc...

This is a fundamental difference in views. But there is historic fact behind tax cuts reducing the impact of a recession. In every case, tax cuts have increased revenue to the treasury. Tax increases have a short front loaded impact and then a deep negative impact - typically another recession. Which in turn leads to more increases to cover the treasurly losses. In no case, has an increase in spending ever, EVER, increased government revenue.

For those that simply hate business and think they are all corrupt. Look around. I would say that 99% of businesses are more concerned with their employees welfare than anything else. I know that I am. I feel terrible that I have to reduce hours, or cut wages. But, I also reduce mine first to do what needs to be done to get by. For those that do not or have not owned a business, I would not expect you to understand. But, I work 80 or more hours a week to make sure that I can succeed, and to see the government make it easier for people to be lazy makes me sick. At this point in time, there are more reasons not to own a business than there are to own one. Probably something the Democrats are aiming for.


Remember people create jobs through hard work and ingenuity - the government only creates jobs that feed its growing appetite.

You nailed it.

Government IS the problem. This has always been the case throughout human history: Government stiffles the liberty and freedom of its populace through taxes, regulations, and laws that invade the privacy of the private citizen. Thats why our ancestors fought the British in the revolutionary war: To throw off a government which had outgrown the consent of the people it sought to govern. The Constitution was put in place to keep our government in check. It is a shame that no one follows it anymore or the words of our founding fathers.

What will this bailout bill do if passed? It will create more government jobs - grow the size of government. But how long will these jobs exist? How long can 900 billion dollars last? Those people who become part of the government will become dependent on the government for their income - and they will remember who gave them those government jobs. And then they will vote for people who want to grow government - and the Government will just get bigger.

It will also devalue the dollar. Where are they going to get the money from to pay for this bailout? The private, unregulated Federal Reserve Bank. Question: What gives your paper money value? It is not backed by gold as it used to be. The only thing that gives the dollar value is how much of it is in circulation. The more money that is available, the more things will cost. Printing/borrowing more money causes inflation. As soon as that money is printed, inflation has occured. We might not feel it for a few more years until it begins to circulate through the economy, but it is happening. You can't dig yourself out of a ditch by digging more - what the shit is wrong with you people who want this bill passed?

What needs to be done? Shrink the government to save money. Our government is simply too big for its britches. Pull our military out of other countries. We have military bases deployed in 130 countries right now. With this money saved we can cut taxes accross the board: Payroll taxes, individual taxes, corporate taxes.

Let people and companies who work for their money keep it. What a concept! There are other ways of funding the government when it isn't grossly overgrown. REAL, Long term tax cuts have ALWAYS created more jobs that last. America was prosperous for 140 years before we even had Federal Income Tax! The only way for any of this to happen is for people to start using their head and voting for people who really know WTF to do with our country. FYI I did not vote for McCain or Obama - they are both horrible beyond belief. I voted Chuck Baldwin/Darrel Castle.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Jessica69
But no matter how much one cuts corporate taxes or taxes on startups or capital gains, unless there is demand for goods, it'll do no good at all.

No company is going to go out and just start employing people just because a new tax cut got instituted for them if there is falling demand for their goods/services.

I never have understood how a top-down stimulus is supposed to sustain itself........it'd make much more sense to stimulate bottom up. Create the demand for goods by loosening the credit that's bound up tighter than hell right now.

Consumer confidence is down, retail sales are contracting, and you want to give the "impetus" to the top.....where it'll stick and do almost little to no good to actually stimulate what drives this economy---consumer spending. This, our U.S. economy, has always been about consumer spending and it still is.......any stimulus to do any good right now has to ramp up spending by consumers, for no matter how many tax breaks you give business, that tact will fail without the consumer spending rising ahead of that.

No consumer spending, no business hiring......no businessperson worth his or her salt would hire to fill positions that weren't needed to meet increasing demand due to spending by consumers.....to say otherwise is a joke.....or is all business just philanthropic in their hiring?

Startups are funded because the founders think there will be demand for their product.

If you build it, they will come.

By providing additional incentive to startups, it may alleviate some of the unemployment problems, obviously won't solve the whole thing or make a dent, but small ideas like these as an aggregate can help get things going.

 

[CPA]

Maybe the Repubs would be more accepting of the Dems proposal if it didn't carry so much pork. Please tell me how billions of dollars going to ACORN, the NEA, Amtrac, etc is going to create and sustain jobs.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: Atreus21

So you're establishing the premise that people don't know how to spend their money?

If I tried building a bridge or highway on my own, it would completely suck. So yes, the government does know how to spend my money better than me.

Then please explain why you don't hand over all of your money to the government.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: Atreus21

So you're establishing the premise that people don't know how to spend their money?

If I tried building a bridge or highway on my own, it would completely suck. So yes, the government does know how to spend my money better than me.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but yes, you could probably hire people to build the bridge also. And probably more efficiently.
The Govt itself is not building the structure. They're simply hiring people and awarding contracts.
Whats at question is not the skills needed but a responsable attitude with the funds.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: Atreus21

So you're establishing the premise that people don't know how to spend their money?

If I tried building a bridge or highway on my own, it would completely suck. So yes, the government does know how to spend my money better than me.

Too stupid to find an architect?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yeah terrible letting people keep more of their hard earned money isnt it? What are those republicans thinking?

The problem is that for republicans, "people" means "very rich people". Us middle class types don't really count.

Which party controlled the Congress who bailed out rich Wall Street bankers? Couldn't have been the Dems, could it? You really think they're much different?

Since when does acting on the advice of nearly every economist across the ideological spectrum equate to some sort of statement about a party's fundamental principles about wealth and taxation?

Republicans purposefully attempt to cut taxes for the richest Americans. Depending on your ideology that isn't a bad thing. To say that the two parties aren't much different on the issue of taxation is silly though.

The same economists who couldn't see the bubble coming? Sorry, I wouldn't trust those morons to balance my checkbook much less "fix" the economy.

 

[Docnasty]

Originally posted by: Jessica69
But no matter how much one cuts corporate taxes or taxes on startups or capital gains, unless there is demand for goods, it'll do no good at all.

No company is going to go out and just start employing people just because a new tax cut got instituted for them if there is falling demand for their goods/services.

I never have understood how a top-down stimulus is supposed to sustain itself........it'd make much more sense to stimulate bottom up. Create the demand for goods by loosening the credit that's bound up tighter than hell right now.

Consumer confidence is down, retail sales are contracting, and you want to give the "impetus" to the top.....where it'll stick and do almost little to no good to actually stimulate what drives this economy---consumer spending. This, our U.S. economy, has always been about consumer spending and it still is.......any stimulus to do any good right now has to ramp up spending by consumers, for no matter how many tax breaks you give business, that tact will fail without the consumer spending rising ahead of that.

No consumer spending, no business hiring......no businessperson worth his or her salt would hire to fill positions that weren't needed to meet increasing demand due to spending by consumers.....to say otherwise is a joke.....or is all business just philanthropic in their hiring?

Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

This is simple economics. What factors influence demand? Income. When you cut peoples taxes and let them keep more of their money you change their demand for goods. Take away more of their income and their demand for normal goods will go down.

When companies see an increase in demand for goods they will ramp up production - which requires more captial and labor. Companies can get more captial and labor to meet demand when they can keep more of their profits.

We got into this mess by epanding TOO MUCH credit. You can blame the Federal Reserve for that since they artficially control interest rates when it should be controlled by the free market.

You're a complete idiot if you think our economy can be sustained by constant consumer spending. Huh!??! How can a country prosper if all they do is consume and don't produce anything? And you know why we don't produce anything? Because of too much government taxation and over regulation - both of which cost too much time and money, so companies decided to take manufacturing elsewhere. Then you have to worry about government backed unions which no longer serve a purpose in our country but to drain businesses of their resources and make them slow to respond to market changes.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: Kadarin

Originally posted by: Genx87
Yeah terrible letting people keep more of their hard earned money isnt it? What are those republicans thinking?

The problem is that for republicans, "people" means "very rich people". Us middle class types don't really count.

Which party controlled the Congress who bailed out rich Wall Street bankers? Couldn't have been the Dems, could it? You really think they're much different?

...and party is relevant how? IIRC, the average person in the US knew long before this that things weren't exactly looking up. First the housing/subprime bubble, then the credit crunch, and then the recession we were already in that the resident "economists" said we hadn't been under for quite some time. It was common sense that congress had to act, but IIRC the way it was portrayed by the media and the wall-street gurus was that it had to be passed NOW or the whole country would tank. When it didn't pass in the first go-round, they started selling. Congress essentially had corporate interests holding a gun to its head, so they passed it - with no oversight. Oversight that, if party idealogy were to be playing a part here, would've existed if the R's hadn't gotten their way in years past. Meanwhile the rest of us are wondering just what the hell is going on as we see our jobs and our money evaporate....

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Jessica69
But no matter how much one cuts corporate taxes or taxes on startups or capital gains, unless there is demand for goods, it'll do no good at all.

No company is going to go out and just start employing people just because a new tax cut got instituted for them if there is falling demand for their goods/services.

I never have understood how a top-down stimulus is supposed to sustain itself........it'd make much more sense to stimulate bottom up. Create the demand for goods by loosening the credit that's bound up tighter than hell right now.

Consumer confidence is down, retail sales are contracting, and you want to give the "impetus" to the top.....where it'll stick and do almost little to no good to actually stimulate what drives this economy---consumer spending. This, our U.S. economy, has always been about consumer spending and it still is.......any stimulus to do any good right now has to ramp up spending by consumers, for no matter how many tax breaks you give business, that tact will fail without the consumer spending rising ahead of that.

No consumer spending, no business hiring......no businessperson worth his or her salt would hire to fill positions that weren't needed to meet increasing demand due to spending by consumers.....to say otherwise is a joke.....or is all business just philanthropic in their hiring?

Trickle-down economics as a guiding policy has proven to be a total failure. This approach has been tried time and time again since the Reagan era, and look where we are now. Congress hasn't listened to their constituents, so the pain started to trickle up. It is time to try another approach. Parroting "tax cuts" like we've been having the last 20+ years isn't going to work this time...

 

[RedChief]

Originally posted by: MovingTargetParroting "tax cuts" like we've been having the last 20+ years isn't going to work this time...

Parroting Keynesian gov spending didnt work during the 1930's either. All it did was take a Depression and make it Great.

Trickle down economics didn't get us into this mess. Inept and corrupt politicians who protected Fannie/Freddie and expanded its role got us into this mess.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: techs
http://www.foxnews.com/politic...ter-proposal-stimulus/

An economic stimulus bill pushed by Republicans in the House would shift focus entirely from spending to tax relief.

What? Gee, more borrow and tax cut? Isn't that what got us into this mess?
Obama and the Dems are going to use money to actually create things like bridges, infrastructure, jobs, etc. The Republicans still want to give people a few extra bucks to ship to China.

Did the Republicans fall asleep on election night? And in their misguided minds do they really believe their plan is good for the country?
Geez, Republicanism these days is akin to a mental disease.

Looks more to me like they might actually be getting a clue.

There's a lot more to this issue than you indicate in your post:

1. Repubs generally favor putting the money (or leaving it) in the hands of people, who they think will spend it better than the gov will.

The Dems favor gov spending, they are fearful people won't spend but pay down debt etc. (But if a tax cut helped people pay their mortgages and put the brakes on defaults, I think that would be a 'good thing').

2. Political calcs (What's new, that's Washington). I, and I think many others, are highly doubtful these so-called stimulus packages are actually going to work. So the Repubs may profit if they let the Dems and Obama take full credit for the package.

3. The bill is not finalized yet, but already there are lots of concerns about what it really is. The NYT had a recent article basically describing the bill as a huge 'pork bomb', with the spending/pork details uncharacteristically vague. There are also reports that raise serious doubts about how much will actually devoted to infrastructure (health care, education, jobless benefits and tax cuts all are larger than infrastructure spending). There are doubts about how fast this money under the current bill will actually be spent. Some reports indicate very little spent in the next 12 months etc, particularly on infrastructure.

Try some links:

House Appropriation Report (note they categorized $87 Billion in Medicaid as other than health care etc. So some disagreement on the categorization).

AP article on Senate Plan

IMO, no matter which political party you prefer, we should keep a close eye on this thing.

Fern

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: RedChief

Originally posted by: MovingTargetParroting "tax cuts" like we've been having the last 20+ years isn't going to work this time...

Parroting Keynesian gov spending didnt work during the 1930's either. All it did was take a Depression and make it Great.

Trickle down economics didn't get us into this mess. Inept and corrupt politicians who protected Fannie/Freddie and expanded its role got us into this mess.

You another one of those who think FDR sent us further into the Great Depression? Try asking people who lived through it. The vast majority will think you don't know what you are talking about. Keynesian economics has far more validity than the current trickle-down theories do that parrot tax cuts as the solution to all our ills. Even if you claim that the war is what ultimately lifted us out of the depression, guess what...it is still government expenditure. Keynesian theory wouldn't' disagree with war spending...

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: Atreus21

So you're establishing the premise that people don't know how to spend their money?

If I tried building a bridge or highway on my own, it would completely suck. So yes, the government does know how to spend my money better than me.

And better than anyone else?

 

[Atreus21]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: RedChief

Originally posted by: MovingTargetParroting "tax cuts" like we've been having the last 20+ years isn't going to work this time...

Parroting Keynesian gov spending didnt work during the 1930's either. All it did was take a Depression and make it Great.

Trickle down economics didn't get us into this mess. Inept and corrupt politicians who protected Fannie/Freddie and expanded its role got us into this mess.

You another one of those who think FDR sent us further into the Great Depression? Try asking people who lived through it. The vast majority will think you don't know what you are talking about. Keynesian economics has far more validity than the current trickle-down theories do that parrot tax cuts as the solution to all our ills. Even if you claim that the war is what ultimately lifted us out of the depression, guess what...it is still government expenditure. Keynesian theory wouldn't' disagree with war spending...

No, they're both viable. Any intelligent economist will tell you this.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Atreus21

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: Atreus21

So you're establishing the premise that people don't know how to spend their money?

If I tried building a bridge or highway on my own, it would completely suck. So yes, the government does know how to spend my money better than me.

And better than anyone else?

Hmmm... The whole "either the government knows how to best spend your money or you do" argument seems quite misleading, if not downright false. It is not an either/or question and it completely misses the point when it comes to government spending. In the case of infrastructure or other public goods, yes, the government is best suited to handling funds. Other things, such as shelter, food, medical care, etc. are best suited for an individual. Given that, we as a society must decide how much to allocate based on the need for those public goods, not just how best individuals could spend it. This question is not the right one to be asking when it comes to public policy...

 

[Pocatello]

The Republicans lost because they didn't follow their own beliefs. Smaller governments, forget it. Fiscal responsibility, bah, spend spend and spend some more, and then borrow more from China. I think borrowing money is worse than increasing tax, eventually we all have to pay the piper. I hope the stimulus package provides jobs, we sure need them. But a lot of stuffs in the bills are not stimulus, even if they sound nice. The stimulus bills only meant for an emergency, we shouldn't use it to fund pork projects.

 

[Train]

Funny how Obama's team just before inauguration said they were going to "do what works and not follow an ideology"... then announced they wanted tax cuts to businesses... :Q

Looks like they put party bias aside and actually thought about a real solution.

Then Pelosi and the Dems sat him down and told him to get inline, and hes been slowly benfding to thier will since.

If repubs dont have a clue, then neither does Obama.. because before Pelosi and Co started modifying his bill and tossing on riders.. he was more in line with them.

 

[Lemon law]

This all misses the point, the republirats again voted 100% for gridlock in the House, not that it did them any good, the dems have enough votes to make the GOP roadkill in the House.

Now on to the Senate, missing only the winner of the of the Minnesota race, but still enough republirats to filibuster everything in the US Senate.

We live in interesting times. Will the GOP become the hero's or the goats they became in 2008?

A salute to the GOP, can't lead, can't follow, and can't get out of the way. Its the trifecta.

 

[quest55720]

I hope the GOP blocks this pork pretending to be a stimulus. Want to repair roads and bridges cool with me. Want to spend on SOD for the national mall screw that. I think the stimulus should be all tax cuts on the lowest tax brackets who actually pay federal taxes and repairing infrastructure. I hope the GOP kills this bill as is because it is nothing but wastefull spending.

 

[retrospooty]

Originally posted by: Ocguy31

Originally posted by: GTKeeper

Originally posted by: Ocguy31
Oh no! Not those evil corporations! Not the entities that actually employ people!

If I need a GOP Parrot, Ill buy one and train it.

*high five*



No, you are right. I think all corporations should be shut down immediately.



Where do you work again?

OCguy ... you got owned. Sit down, eheleeeeewse.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: quest55720
I hope the GOP blocks this pork pretending to be a stimulus. Want to repair roads and bridges cool with me. Want to spend on SOD for the national mall screw that. I think the stimulus should be all tax cuts on the lowest tax brackets who actually pay federal taxes and repairing infrastructure. I hope the GOP kills this bill as is because it is nothing but wastefull spending.

They need to start making everyone pay federal income tax. This country is just becoming a country filled with complainy lazy ass bitches who don't want to pay for anything.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
This all misses the point, the republirats again voted 100% for gridlock in the House, not that it did them any good, the dems have enough votes to make the GOP roadkill in the House.

Now on to the Senate, missing only the winner of the of the Minnesota race, but still enough republirats to filibuster everything in the US Senate.

We live in interesting times. Will the GOP become the hero's or the goats they became in 2008?

A salute to the GOP, can't lead, can't follow, and can't get out of the way. Its the trifecta.

GOP wont filibuster. They want the democrats to own this legislation. When it ultimately fails to deliver anything but inflation and a big bill the dems will have nowhere to run.