Republicans in Cali must be livid

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: ICRS
The Governator has called for the courts to throw out Prop 8, saying it is in Violation of the Constitution of California.

Haven't the courts already done enough damage on the issue of gay marriage? If they hadn't tried to shoehorn this in via fiat a la Roe v. Wade, voters would have probably passed it via normal democratic processes before long. Doing it through the courts simply ensures it's going to endure as a culture war issue for years to come.

You keep pushing this logic (this and the Gavin Newsom comment), so I feel compelled to ask...do you think voters are completely retarded? Doing something just because someone tells you not to is the kind of bullshit you're supposed to outgrow in grade school. Do you honestly think there is a large population of people out there who generally support gay marriage, but voted yes on prop 8 because they don't like people telling them to support gay marriage? Because that sounds kind of weird to me...

Personally I think that's just another excuse for people doing what they wanted to do in the first place. Only now they can blame the victims instead of taking responsibility for their own position. Newsom and the court may provide convenient excuses, but people were going to hate gay marriage anyways.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

I'd say the result on prop 8 makes it plenty clear that a LOT of people outside the gay community support gay marriage. Nearly 50% of the population of CA thinks gay marriage should be legal, I think "the public" is getting pretty ready to embrace gay marriage.

Really I think claims like you just made are the big hurdle left in this debate. It's not "the public" vs "the gays", the issue is becoming pretty evenly split among people of every gender, sexual preference and political viewpoint. Education worked just fine, the remaining issue is when people try to sell gay marriage as some radical agenda that normal people are right to reject, instead of a pretty mainstream idea that a lot of people have already come to grips with. You're trying to give people who refuse to rethink their ideas a free ride, by falsely suggesting that they represent "the public" and that the ideas they refuse to listen to are part of an extremist gay agenda with no good argument in its favor.

In other words, you're giving them intellectual cover, which is why any argument in favor of gay marriage can start with "I'm just trying to protect traditional marriage..." or "I'm just protecting my family...". If everyone was being honest, they'd wonder why a huge group of people with traditional marriages and/or families don't care about gay marriage.

 

[GTaudiophile]

I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: glenn1

Originally posted by: ICRS
The Governator has called for the courts to throw out Prop 8, saying it is in Violation of the Constitution of California.

Haven't the courts already done enough damage on the issue of gay marriage? If they hadn't tried to shoehorn this in via fiat a la Roe v. Wade, voters would have probably passed it via normal democratic processes before long. Doing it through the courts simply ensures it's going to endure as a culture war issue for years to come.

You're acting like the courts choose when these cases come before them. If a judge thinks that a law/proposition/whatever is in violation of the constitution, he has no choice, he is legally mandated to strike down the law.

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

if the people voted to gas the jews, would the holocaust have been ok?



btw lol godwins law

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

You might want to check civics 101 man, some things in America are not up for majority vote.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

people aren't being forced to accept anything that hasn't already been established and that is equal treatment and equal protection for all.

If people are feeling "forced" into accepting this then they have a problem.

 

[Lemon law]

Well Arrnie S, God bless his opportunistic ass, is still what Sarah Palin would call and Maverick, and in this case, IMHO, happens to be right.

But California has a strange political structure and empowers ballot initiatives of this nature. And give homophobes and bigots their due, the people have spoken, prop 8 passed, and similar measures would likely pass in at least 30 of 52 states.

And if we wish to understand why it passes in California, lets us not just blame the typical WASP of the religious right, we need to especially single out the the Hispanic community.

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news...oposition_8_28299.html

One would like to think those who are victims of discrimination would feel a bond with others discriminated against, but the human condition does not seem to accommodate that rationality, too many of us are equal opportunity haters, as we hate what we don't wish to understand, and pretend we can deny.

After all gays and Lesbians are not some space aliens or hated foreigners, they are our sons and daughters, who some how did not turn out exactly like the vast majority. Even if we know we can not punish out the behavior, we must feel compelled to punish. Its in the human genome.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

Bigots have spoken and their words are Constitutionally illegal.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

people aren't being forced to accept anything that hasn't already been established and that is equal treatment and equal protection for all.

If people are feeling "forced" into accepting this then they have a problem.

While I understand your sentiment since I fully support gay marriage and voted no on Amendment 2 (which was Florida's version of prop 8), what you're saying really isn't true.

Similar to driving, marriage is not a right, it' a privilege. It's a license granted by the State and the State can choose to revoke it or disqualify people based on any number of reasons. That applies to heterosexuals too as there are many restrictions on heterosexuals marrying ranging from age, to family relationship, and even based on blood tests.

I agree with AT1. The majority are not ready to accept gay marriage yet. It's unfortunate but the majority have made themselves clear on their wishes. Those wishes should be honored.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Well Arrnie S, God bless his opportunistic ass, is still what Sarah Palin would call and Maverick, and in this case, IMHO, happens to be right.

But California has a strange political structure and empowers ballot initiatives of this nature. And give homophobes and bigots their due, the people have spoken, prop 8 passed, and similar measures would likely pass in at least 30 of 52 states.

And if we wish to understand why it passes in California, lets us not just blame the typical WASP of the religious right, we need to especially single out the the Hispanic community.

http://www.efluxmedia.com/news...oposition_8_28299.html

One would like to think those who are victims of discrimination would feel a bond with others discriminated against, but the human condition does not seem to accommodate that rationality, too many of us are equal opportunity haters, as we hate what we don't wish to understand.

We hate ourselves and manufacture people below us to dump it onto. That is the core of the issue. It is not a human condition. It is an understandable fact with its own etiology.

 

[Pastore]

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

If the majority of ATOT votes to have you anally raped by Ron Jeremy, you wouldn't have any qualms?

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

I think they should go after civil unions instead of gay marriage. I think far more people would be more agreeable to civil unions. Going after gay marriage takes on alot more tradition. And lets face, a marriage between a man and woman is different than a marriage of same sex couples.

 

[Pliablemoose]

If we loved ourselves we'd all live in a Star Trek utopia future time, and enjoy being anally raped by Ron Jeremy.

And in my pink, cotton candy, unicorn world, everyone who doesn't agree with me hates themselves.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose
If we loved ourselves we'd all live in a Star Trek utopia future time, and enjoy being anally raped by Ron Jeremy.

And in my pink, cotton candy, unicorn world, everyone who doesn't agree with me hates themselves.

OMG!

Moonbeam is anal raping you right now? Message received. Help is on the way.

 

[ScottyB]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

people aren't being forced to accept anything that hasn't already been established and that is equal treatment and equal protection for all.

If people are feeling "forced" into accepting this then they have a problem.

While I understand your sentiment since I fully support gay marriage and voted no on Amendment 2 (which was Florida's version of prop 8), what you're saying really isn't true.

Similar to driving, marriage is not a right, it' a privilege. It's a license granted by the State and the State can choose to revoke it or disqualify people based on any number of reasons. That applies to heterosexuals too as there are many restrictions on heterosexuals marrying ranging from age, to family relationship, and even based on blood tests.

I agree with AT1. The majority are not ready to accept gay marriage yet. It's unfortunate but the majority have made themselves clear on their wishes. Those wishes should be honored.

Right. Just like black people should have honored the beliefs of their masters in the slavery days.

 

[Ns1]

arnold is the fucking shit

 

[Perknose]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
It's unfortunate but the majority have made themselves clear on their wishes. Those wishes should be honored.

As was done for 100 years in the South with miscegenation laws, yes! The majority did not wish it to be legal for blacks and whites to marry -- after all, it's a privilege not a right! -- and so their "wishes" were brutally "honored." :roll:

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: ScottyB

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

people aren't being forced to accept anything that hasn't already been established and that is equal treatment and equal protection for all.

If people are feeling "forced" into accepting this then they have a problem.

While I understand your sentiment since I fully support gay marriage and voted no on Amendment 2 (which was Florida's version of prop 8), what you're saying really isn't true.

Similar to driving, marriage is not a right, it' a privilege. It's a license granted by the State and the State can choose to revoke it or disqualify people based on any number of reasons. That applies to heterosexuals too as there are many restrictions on heterosexuals marrying ranging from age, to family relationship, and even based on blood tests.

I agree with AT1. The majority are not ready to accept gay marriage yet. It's unfortunate but the majority have made themselves clear on their wishes. Those wishes should be honored.

Right. Just like black people should have honored the beliefs of their masters in the slavery days.

Yay! Way to read what I actually wrote. But you're still stuck on assuming your personal opinion is right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, which is the major fucking malfunction in P&N in the first place.

An opinion is nothing more than that. Like you, I don't agree with that majority opinion either. That doesn't mean it's wrong. It just means I disagree. I can live with that. Apparently some people can't.

 

[Ns1]

n/m

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken

Originally posted by: OrByte

Originally posted by: alphatarget1
These things are never supposed to be decided by courts. The public isn't ready to embrace gay marriage yet, so why doesn't the gay community spend more time and efforts to try to educate to the public about it, instead of trying to have the courts force it down on people?

Forcing people to accept gay marriage does nothing to further your cause.

people aren't being forced to accept anything that hasn't already been established and that is equal treatment and equal protection for all.

If people are feeling "forced" into accepting this then they have a problem.

While I understand your sentiment since I fully support gay marriage and voted no on Amendment 2 (which was Florida's version of prop 8), what you're saying really isn't true.

Similar to driving, marriage is not a right, it' a privilege. It's a license granted by the State and the State can choose to revoke it or disqualify people based on any number of reasons. That applies to heterosexuals too as there are many restrictions on heterosexuals marrying ranging from age, to family relationship, and even based on blood tests.

I agree with AT1. The majority are not ready to accept gay marriage yet. It's unfortunate but the majority have made themselves clear on their wishes. Those wishes should be honored.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Only TLC could come up with a lame brain argument that sex is not a right but a State Licensed privilege. And somehow an all powerful State can take away my sexual identity away in the same way they can suspend my drivers license for too many reckless driving convictions. Bailiff wack off his pee pee or plug her hole, release them back into the general population and tell them to sin no more. And bring on the state sponsored sex police, thou shalt not have same sex sex among consenting adults, or too many minuscule minds will implode.

The very second I was expelled from my momma's womb, the first question everyone asked, is it a girl or a boy immediately after it was apparent I was alive and not dead.

But I love those TLC implications, too much drunken sex and we suspend your sex license for a moving violation, where do you go to get your learners permit, and where can I buy that high risk insurance? Do I go with the gecko or safe auto, and who has the lowest rates.?

Even as a member of the 96% majority who somehow does not find any attraction in same sex sex, I still have to ask, how does it hurt me? I can understand that rape is a crime that belongs in the criminal code, but why should I deny the same right to sexual happiness among consenting adults to those different from me. That too is a form of rape and belongs in the criminal code along with the crimes of those that practice bigotry.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: Lemon lawOnly TLC could come up with a lame brain argument that sex is not a right but a State Licensed privilege. And somehow an all powerful State can take away my sexual identity away in the same way they can suspend my drivers license for too many reckless driving convictions. Bailiff wack off his pee pee or plug her hole, release them back into the general population and tell them to sin no more. And bring on the state sponsored sex police, thou shalt not have same sex sex among consenting adults, or too many minuscule minds will implode.

The very second I was expelled from my momma's womb, the first question everyone asked, is it a girl or a boy immediately after it was apparent I was alive and not dead.

But I love those TLC implications, too much drunken sex and we suspend your sex license for a moving violation, where do you go to get your learners permit, and where can I buy that high risk insurance? Do I go with the gecko or safe auto, and who has the lowest rates.?

Even as a member of the 96% majority who somehow does not find any attraction in same sex sex, I still have to ask, how does it hurt me? I can understand that rape is a crime that belongs in the criminal code, but why should I deny the same right to sexual happiness among consenting adults to those different from me. That too is a form of rape and belongs in the criminal code along with the crimes of those that practice bigotry.

WTF are you going on about?

Again, I will remind you...I fully support gay marriage. I personally see nothing wrong with it. But if you can't tolerate the fact that others, particularly a voting majority, have an opinion that differs from yours and mine, then you need how to learn suck it up and move on instead of trying to manufacture pathetic responses simply as a device to call people names and assess blame.

Get over yourself, LL. Your knee-jerking is not doing you any favors, particularly in this instance.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: RichardE
My ex gf voted yes on prop 8. Shes a bigot though /shrug. (Didn't like Obama because she didn't trust him when pressed admitted it was race and he was a muslim who would ban Christianity, she has her masters and is working on her PhD....I don't know /shrug)

Anyway, shes pissed the courts are going to reverse it, thinks its just another step in the anti-christ taking over the US (She also thinks OBama is the black muslim antichrist)

What will you think of her if he does end up being a muslim antichrist?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: miketheidiot

Originally posted by: GTaudiophile
I love it. You guys only respect the majority when it votes in your favor.

As far as I am concerned, whether I agree or disagree with Prop 8, the people have spoken.

if the people voted to gas the jews, would the holocaust have been ok?



btw lol godwins law

Were concentration camps a proposition voted on by the German people?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

You're acting like the courts choose when these cases come before them. If a judge thinks that a law/proposition/whatever is in violation of the constitution, he has no choice, he is legally mandated to strike down the law.

the Supreme Court very much may pick and choose what cases come before them. trial courts, no. courts of appeals, no. but the Supreme Court almost never hears cases by trial or appeal. it's almost always certiorari, which is very much in the Court's discretion.

oddly enough, roe went up via a 28 USC 1253 appeal rather than a Rule 20 certiorari. the Court could still have declined to hear it under Court precedent, however, which held that 1253 did not authorize an appeal on declaratory relief alone.


of course, california law may be completely different