Republican Spending Blueprint Contains ?No Detail.?

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BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
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In the chart on page 16, I wonder why 2007 is a blue, Republican budget and 2008 is a red, Democratic budget. Was there a change in government between 2007 and 2008 that no one told me about?

It is also sort of amusing how they started their plot in 2004, after Bush had already dug us into the deficit hole so that they conveniently miss the build-up of the deficits under the first few years of the Bush Administration.

And, even coloring the 2009 budget red is sort of questionable. I think it includes several commitments, such as the $700 billion bailout, that were made under the Republican Administration. And, of course, the big jump from FY2008 to FY2009 has more to do with the complete economic meltdown and bailouts than anything else.

I've tried reading through the document, and trying to make sense of the various charts and figures, and I really can't make heads or tails of the diagram on page 8. How should that be interpreted? Is "The Republican Road to Recovery" standing as a block between "Limits Federal Spending" and "Universal Access to Affordable Coverage"? It just seems to be a bunch of terms thrown into Visio and arranged prettily, but utterly devoid of meaningful content.

It's fairly revealing that the only specific policy proposal in the entire budget with numbers is a massive tax cut for the rich. The "plan" proposes establishing two marginal tax rates - 25% for those who make more than $100,000; 10% for everyone else. As I'm sure you know, that's a huge benefit for those who are doing pretty well. Clearly, this is not a party whose sole mission in life is to redistribute income up the ladder.

It's also worth noting that, hilarity aside, it's full of misleading and downright false assertions. A few of the biggies that I saw was the continuing attempt to pin the market meltdown on the Community Reinvestment Act (of 1977), and Fannie and Freddie. Don't know if it's the first, but it certainly won't be the last to liken the budget to the famous Underpants Gnome financial plan.

I Can't determine anything from that pdf. Those nineteen pages should have been an introduction to a larger, wider budget that pairs their own numbers with President Obama's and CBO projections. Instead, it boils down to a bunch of shoulda-coulda-woulda that's gratitiously ornate in pictures and diagrams but lacking in substance.

They've done it again! With a huge buildup, a fanfare, and a flourish of strumpets, they've brought forth an utter nullity, a vacuum with skin! They even had the good grace to time their rollout to detract from a Presidential speech, so that they could gain maximum impact for their empty bromide a-go-go!

General Jubilation T. Cornpone! Commander of Cornpone's Defeat, Cornpone's Rout, and Cornpone's Utter Humiliation! Thank you, Jesus!


 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Welp, it's March 31st. The GOP claimed they would have their vaunted budget details (complete with actual numbers this time) today. I guess someone needs to remind them? Anyone? Eric Cantor? Judd Gregg? Anyone?

:roll:
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Yawn. Maybe the whining liberals can go pound sand now.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20761.html

Flying in the face of the White House ? and perhaps last November?s election results ? House Republicans proposed Wednesday to recall much of President Barack Obama?s economic recovery plan and then go forward with new business tax cuts and a five-year freeze on non-defense spending.

The sweeping attack represents little political threat to the Democratic resolution expected to be approved by the full House Thursday. But as floor debate begins, the 53-page report is the most complete effort yet by the minority to map out a detailed alternative to the president?s program.

Put forward by Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan, the ranking Republican on the House Budget Committee, the 10-year plan seeks to trim $3.6 trillion altogether from the accumulated deficits projected for Obama?s budget by the end of the decade. But given the generous tax cuts, deficits would still be large, and debt as a percentage of the gross domestic product would grow to 62.5 percent compared to 40.8 percent in 2008.

Ryan is gambling that long-term savings from changes in Medicare and adjustments in Social Security will help to bring down that percentage over time, and he argued that his scenario will at least maintain some control over the relative debt by never going above 75 percent of GDP.

By comparison, Obama?s budget would breach the 75 percent as early as 2015 and then move to 82 percent by 2019 according to the Congressional Budget Office.

With the Baby Boom generation moving into retirement, Ryan said any plan will see debt rise, but that under Obama?s proposal it becomes ?uncontrollable.? As a veteran of past budget debates, he said he was sympathetic with the president having inherited a monumental fiscal crisis. But he said the question now should be, ?Is he fixing it or making it worse??

The White House quickly countered, arguing that Ryan?s policy proposals would only magnify the Republican mistakes of the past.

?If you expected a GOP alternative to the failed policies of the past that got our country into the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, then I have two words for you: April Fool?s,? said Kenneth Baer, communications director for the Office of Management and Budget.

Indeed, many of the tax ideas show no effort to temper those tax breaks ? under the Bush Administration?which most benefit upper income families. And Ryan would add on top of this a cut in the corporate tax rate to 25 percent from 35 percent and temporarily suspend all capital gains taxes for 2009 and 2010.

Even in the case of oil companies, he shields the industry from an estimated $31 billion to $80 billion in tax increases backed by the president and dismisses any idea of a cap-and-trade system to cope with climate change and global warming.

In the case of the massive stimulus bill approved in February, Ryan would rescind any new spending beyond the fiscal year ending Sept. 30 with the exception of unemployment assistance.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
In the chart on page 16, I wonder why 2007 is a blue, Republican budget and 2008 is a red, Democratic budget. Was there a change in government between 2007 and 2008 that no one told me about?

Congress. The 2007 budget was written in 2006.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yawn. Maybe the whining liberals can go pound sand now.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20761.html

Flying in the face of the White House ? and perhaps last November?s election results ? House Republicans proposed Wednesday to recall much of President Barack Obama?s economic recovery plan and then go forward with new business tax cuts and a five-year freeze on non-defense spending.
The best April Fool's joke of all! Nicely played, GOP. :laugh:
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yawn. Maybe the whining liberals can go pound sand now.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/20761.html

Flying in the face of the White House ? and perhaps last November?s election results ? House Republicans proposed Wednesday to recall much of President Barack Obama?s economic recovery plan and then go forward with new business tax cuts and a five-year freeze on non-defense spending.
The best April Fool's joke of all! Nicely played, GOP. :laugh:

I dunno what's so funny. You lefties weren't going to like what they put up anyway.

Although you might want to edit the OP.
 

evident

Lifer
Apr 5, 2005
12,152
774
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our future was already mortgaged in 2003 to pay for the stupid iraq war, so stfu repubs plz.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
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yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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I think we need to run the plan through the CBO to ensure their 75% of GDP debt scenario is accurate.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.

There are tons of companies making money. Just because you hear the left wing and the media whine about Armageddon 24/7, doesn't mean it's the reality on the ground. 90% of the companies my company deals with are still making and spending money. Many of the smart ones are using this slump/plateau in their sales (ie: not seeing increases but no where near losing their ass) to rework their operations that may have been ignored/put off due to no available down-time. That is both on the floor and in the offices.
Hell, then there are some companies(mine in particular) who are still turning away work due to not enough skilled staff(or rather the lack of qualified candidates). Even though some of our big customers have slowed spending with us, we have picked back up the smaller customers that we've had to ignore/turn down the last 5 years due to being too busy. We used to pawn the mid sized stuff off to local 1-2 man operations but even they are too busy to do our overflow.

Oh well - I guess some people just want to think things are bad - just like they've tried to say for the last 5 years...
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.

The fact that you don't like it does not make it 'not a real budget'.

Oh, there was over a trillion dollars in corporate profit in 2008. I know a trillion's not a lot to you folks, though.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I think we need to run the plan through the CBO to ensure their 75% of GDP debt scenario is accurate.

I doubt the CBO will waste much time on an alternative budget that has no chance of becoming law.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.

1. Our corporate income tax rate is the second highest in the world. Only companies without net income don't mind being here. With a lower rate we may more profitable businesses remain (or come) here, that's more revenue.

2. We still have a lot of individuals employed. A tax cut for them allows them to spend more, increasing demand for products and all that brings with it.

Fern
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,948
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Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.

1. Our corporate income tax rate is the second highest in the world. Only companies without net income don't mind being here. With a lower rate we may more profitable businesses remain (or come) here, that's more revenue.

2. We still have a lot of individuals employed. A tax cut for them allows them to spend more, increasing demand for products and all that brings with it.

Fern

points taken. Why wasn't this corporate tax on the republican agenda during bushes first term?
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
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Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

points taken. Why wasn't this corporate tax on the republican agenda during bushes first term?

IDK, maybe it was?

Or, maybe everybody elses' corporate income taxes have come down since then?

Maybe some wnated to fix it but couldn't get it through the Senate (IIRC, the Repubs didn't have much control there).

Personally, I wouldn't have thought our corporate income taxes were that high, but I recognize the potential problems when we're at #2 in the world. And I don't know if that ranking is based on federal taxes alone, or includes state corporate income taxes (very few other countries have 2 layers of income tax like us).

Fern
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
yawn is right winnar. More tax cuts? Those don't work and what business is making money now anyhow? How the fuck does a tax cut help when you are losing money anyhow? Freeze ALL spending for 5 years? whatever. I will give them this, they are smart for not even trying to make a real budget. Now they can continue to criticize everything the dems do and paint all of these problems as dem created. Only time will tell if this strategy will work out for them.

1. Our corporate income tax rate is the second highest in the world. Only companies without net income don't mind being here. With a lower rate we may more profitable businesses remain (or come) here, that's more revenue.

2. We still have a lot of individuals employed. A tax cut for them allows them to spend more, increasing demand for products and all that brings with it.

Fern

I believe the measurement typically used compares Federal corporate tax revenues to domestic GDP - it gives a better picture than by going country to country, rate by rate. As a percentage of GDP Federal corporate tax revenues in the US are actually below average.

Where it starts getting stinky is when you attempt to attach State corporate taxes - some states follow Federal policy, others don't. I think NC (for the most part) follows the Fed.

They try to factor in the 'distortion' but it's all pretty much Fail (to me, anyway). I think for the most part we are in basic alignment with the G8s when you try to balance everything out concerning corporate taxation.

We are all 'balanced' on the head of a pin. At the Federal level in the US corporate profits are not taxed when they are invested back into the corporation. We want businesses to grow and expand. When the profits are 'pulled' from the corporation they are then taxed - and that itself creates further problems. Retention of capital (whether on a corporate or individual basis) is not favored against (re)investment or the assumption of debt.

There's no end to the *mess*. C- and S-Corps (and partnerships, sole-proprietors, etc.) are treated differently under the tax code. State and local gov'ts provide different levels of incentives and credits. We might want to 'tinker' around the edges but making wholesale changes or cuts (without world-wide consensus - LOL) could lead to an even bigger mess.

Be certain that our friends in the G8 would reciprocate in some fashion, too. The delicate balance we maintain today would be lost. If we 'steal' a corporate entity don't think it will not go unnoticed.

So ... cutting the rate has consequences and our global friends will respond accordingly to remain competitive. Now, if we could only simplify the corporate and individual tax mess in this country we could really go places ...

:laugh:

 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
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The tax cuts are not offset by required spending cuts, and thus, it's really just pick your poison. Massive govt. spending on military/va, or on domestic programs. Large tax cuts for the wealthy, or modest tax cuts for the middle class and tax hikes for the upper class.

 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: winnar111
Yawn. Maybe the whining liberals can go pound sand now.

*sniff* We can't help it. *sob* We're sorry. We just love our country. *gulp* And we fear for it. *crai*
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
The republicans almost have it right. A spending freeze across the board with a 10% reduction in military spending and tax cuts for the 2 lowest brackets who actually pay federal income taxes is just right. Time to get this government spending under control before it is to late. I would like to see the military budget cut by 35%-40% over the next decade along with a spending freeze on everything else and we can work our way out of this horrible debt.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

I believe the measurement typically used compares Federal corporate tax revenues to domestic GDP - it gives a better picture than by going country to country, rate by rate. As a percentage of GDP Federal corporate tax revenues in the US are actually below average.

Wow, if true that could be really problematic. We have an awful of businesses contributing to domestic GDP that are not taxed as corporations (thus no corp tax revenues).

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Where it starts getting stinky is when you attempt to attach State corporate taxes - some states follow Federal policy, others don't. I think NC (for the most part) follows the Fed.

Well, it might be differen to factor in, if only because the states have different rates. But yet it a tax cost and should be done.

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
They try to factor in the 'distortion' but it's all pretty much Fail (to me, anyway). I think for the most part we are in basic alignment with the G8s when you try to balance everything out concerning corporate taxation.

We are all 'balanced' on the head of a pin.

I'd be interested to see that if you have a link

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
At the Federal level in the US corporate profits are not taxed when they are invested back into the corporation. We want businesses to grow and expand. When the profits are 'pulled' from the corporation they are then taxed - and that itself creates further problems. Retention of capital (whether on a corporate or individual basis) is not favored against (re)investment or the assumption of debt.

No, whether or not a corporation distributes it's taxable profit (to shareholders) or retains it is irrelevent in corporate tax; they pay taxes on it. That only matters to the shareholders, basically they get taxed on dividends, if the company retains the profits (i.e., no dividend distribution) they don't pay any.

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
There's no end to the *mess*. C- and S-Corps (and partnerships, sole-proprietors, etc.) are treated differently under the tax code. State and local gov'ts provide different levels of incentives and credits. We might want to 'tinker' around the edges but making wholesale changes or cuts (without world-wide consensus - LOL) could lead to an even bigger mess.

Yes, they are treated differently. But we are just talking about corporate tax rates here. For the most, and for a variety of reasons I don't want to get into, most foreigners doing business here do so through a regular corporation (e.g., can't have a S-corp unless you are a US person)

Fern
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
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0
I'll try to dig up a link fer yah, Fern. I believe it was part of a CBO study - 'voluminous' stuff. I think it's the reason the Cons didn't jump all over a reduction in the corporate rate.

Around the globe it seemed that higher (or lower) corporate tax rates were balanced out by lower (or higher) depreciation rates, credits, incentives, etc.



 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
1
81
Originally posted by: Carmen813
The tax cuts are not offset by required spending cuts, and thus, it's really just pick your poison. Massive govt. spending on military/va, or on domestic programs. Large tax cuts for the wealthy, or modest tax cuts for the middle class and tax hikes for the upper class.
Basically this. Looks like Republicans plan to balloon the deficit as well, just in a different way than the Dems.