Republican comments on 11 year old being raped.

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Nov 30, 2006
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Certainly, and also that rape is evil. However as a parent one cannot depend on the world being a nice place. There will always be predators, and one must actively keep one's children from being in harm's way, even (perhaps usually) against their will.


I do have some idea, my stepdaughter had much the same behavioral problems although thank G-d not at freakin' 11! Willful children who consider themselves adults can be extremely difficult to deal with. But the fact remains that no matter what they tried, they failed their daughter.

One can try as hard as possible and still fail. There's not always a right choice and a wrong choice, and quite often the better choice has its own bad effects. I'm not saying that these parents are evil, but I am saying that they failed their daughter.
...and the daughter failed her parents through repeated acts of willful disobedience. You see...there's plenty of blame to go around.

These parents are in a 'no win' situation...they live in poverty struggling to keep the lights on and feed their children...they both have serious medical issues (the mother will not likely live long with her brain tumor and doesn't seek treatment because she doesn't want to live anyway)...they've recently had to move due to the death threats.

Now, to add insult to injury, the parents are labeled 'failures' by you for not raising their children to your 'standards'.

This story strikes a chord with me as I grew up in poverty and know what it's like to go hungry, to have the lights turned off on many occasions, and going cold in the winter because we couldn't afford to pay for heating oil. My father couldn't hold a job and failed us by leaving us for long periods of time throughout my childhood...he died when I was 11 years old. I was the oldest of three...my sister and I were 'rebellious' and both had several near brushes with death. My mother had no skills...but she loved us....and I thank God to this day she didn't put us in a foster home...imo, that would have been true abandonment and failure.

You really don't know enough to judge them.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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...and the daughter failed her parents through repeated acts of willful disobedience. You see...there's plenty of blame to go around.

These parents are in a 'no win' situation...they live in poverty struggling to keep the lights on and feed their children...they both have serious medical issues (the mother will not likely live long with her brain tumor and doesn't seek treatment because she doesn't want to live anyway)...they've recently had to move due to the death threats.

Now, to add insult to injury, the parents are labeled 'failures' by you for not raising their children to your 'standards'.

This story strikes a chord with me as I grew up in poverty and know what it's like to go hungry, to have the lights turned off on many occasions, and going cold in the winter because we couldn't afford to pay for heating oil. My father couldn't hold a job and failed us by leaving us for long periods of time throughout my childhood...he died when I was 11 years old. I was the oldest of three...my sister and I were 'rebellious' and both had several near brushes with death. My mother had no skills...but she loved us....and I thank God to this day she didn't put us in a foster home...imo, that would have been true abandonment and failure.

You really don't know enough to judge them.
I don't want to label them as failures; that implies a judgment about them as a whole. Everyone fails from time to time, and they did fail their daughter in this case. I have no doubt that this child is a rebellious little asshole whose willful acts placed her in a position for this to happen, but a parent's job is to prevent this in spite of the child. (Trust me, I've been on both sides of the rebellious little asshole fence.) That's not just my standards; I'd bet money her parents have the same standards, and I imagine they are blaming themselves too.

You have an interesting life story. I too was raised poor, in a rented house with no indoor bathroom, heated (poorly) with a single pot-bellied coal stove - meaning you had the choice of which side would be roasting and which would be icy. However my parents were the greatest; our power was never cut off, we never went hungry (although I've gotten pretty damned tired of potato soup), my mother stayed home until I attended school, and both of my parents worked hard, took on additional responsibilities, stayed sober, didn't have other children they could not afford, learned new job skills, and sacrificed. My father spent long days standing on concrete even though he had two collapsed disks; my mother worked maybe sixty hours a week for forty hours' pay. As a result my life (and theirs) became increasingly more comfortable. That is what parents SHOULD do. Certainly there were times as a teenager when I sneaked out and did things that were dangerous, and something equally heinous could have happened to me. However, there's a big difference between a 14 year old occasionally sneaking out and an 11 year old sneaking out regularly. That's a pretty serious failing in parents, even granting there are some fairly serious mitigating circumstances here.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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There's fail everywhere you turn in this story and I just found it odd that you focused on the parents making conclusions on very limited information at best. You have not walked in their shoes.

BTW...I'm glad to see we a few people here that understand what it's like to live in poverty...I think you'll agree with me that we're richer for it.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
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Reminds me of the nude protestors in San Francisco who get pissed when their picture is taken.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
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This story strikes a chord with me as I grew up in poverty and know what it's like to go hungry,

My dad left when I was 2. Props to you for getting through that. It takes a tough person to fight for something better when handed shit.
 

woolfe9999

Diamond Member
Mar 28, 2005
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In the real world, anything can influence the probability of anything happening. That doesn't make a wrongdoer any less responsible. However, pretending that pathological behavior (i.e. rape) exists in a complete vacuum is utter nonsense.

For the record, I can't see anything wrong with what this politician said other than that she may be oversimplifiying something that is multi-causal to make it seem mono-causal. I don't necessarily support stringent dress codes in public schools as I think it is an issue of parental responsibility but I'm just not getting the outrage here over these comments. Yeah, I do have a teenage daughter. That and the fact that I like to think I also have a brain are why I'm not seeing the issue here.

- wolf
 
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ericlp

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
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I read it as if your a 21 year old prostitute it's ok to rape them... Sheesh
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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There's fail everywhere you turn in this story and I just found it odd that you focused on the parents making conclusions on very limited information at best. You have not walked in their shoes.

BTW...I'm glad to see we a few people here that understand what it's like to live in poverty...I think you'll agree with me that we're richer for it.
To some degree I HAVE walked in their shoes - I've discovered that my step daughter wasn't even in the same county, let alone in her room. When I say her parents have failed her, don't think that I haven't failed too. But I think that it's important not to excuse failure, merely to admit it and gain motivation and experience from it. Good judgment is often, perhaps usually, the result of bad judgment.

I do think poverty can and should be a motivating force, although honestly I never really felt poor growing up. I knew other kids had things I didn't have, but that was just the way things were. I'm sure that had I gone hungry or been without power or water, or homeless, real poverty, that would have made a LOT bigger impact on me. As it was, I got to experience my world getting demonstrably better - things like getting an inside bathroom. No more night trips through the garden to the outhouse! No more bathing in a galvanized tub in front of a pot-bellied stove! Getting stack heaters, so that my bedroom had a heat source! Eventually building a new house with central heat and air conditioning! (A house with a tin roof and no A/C in dog days is practically unbearable once you've lived in a well-insulated house with central HVAC, although it was just normal at the time, both for me and for a lot of people I knew.)

I consider myself very lucky in that I had parents who demonstrated the value of hard work, and I got to live the benefits of climbing out of poverty, without experiencing real poverty and deprivation. I probably didn't get as much motivation from it as did you, since I never really had a sense of being in poverty, but I enjoyed a storybook childhood with excellent role models. And I definitely think I am richer for having lived it. Growing up in an urban jungle now, where there is little respect for human life or property rights, to me that's much more horrific, even if one has central HVAC and a nice apartment and a big screen TV.

In the real world, anything can influence the probability of anything happening. That doesn't make a wrongdoer any less responsible. However, pretending that pathological behavior (i.e. rape) exists in a complete vacuum is utter nonsense.

For the record, I can't see anything wrong with what this politician said other than that she may be oversimplifiying something that is multi-causal to make it seem mono-causal. I don't necessarily support stringent dress codes in public schools as I think it is an issue of parental responsibility but I'm just not getting the outrage here over these comments. Yeah, I do have a teenage daughter. That and the fact that I like to think I also have a brain are why I'm not seeing the issue here.

- wolf
Yeah, I had no outrage, but I did think it was a particularly dumb thing for a politician to say. While her provocative dress definitely increased her chances of something like this happening, and fits into Passidomo's support for the school uniform bill, the child's dress seems to me to be one of the least causative factors in this tragedy, and pointing it out seems awfully close to blaming the victim.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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...and the daughter failed her parents through repeated acts of willful disobedience. You see...there's plenty of blame to go around.

These parents are in a 'no win' situation...they live in poverty struggling to keep the lights on and feed their children...they both have serious medical issues (the mother will not likely live long with her brain tumor and doesn't seek treatment because she doesn't want to live anyway)...they've recently had to move due to the death threats.

Now, to add insult to injury, the parents are labeled 'failures' by you for not raising their children to your 'standards'.

This story strikes a chord with me as I grew up in poverty and know what it's like to go hungry, to have the lights turned off on many occasions, and going cold in the winter because we couldn't afford to pay for heating oil. My father couldn't hold a job and failed us by leaving us for long periods of time throughout my childhood...he died when I was 11 years old. I was the oldest of three...my sister and I were 'rebellious' and both had several near brushes with death. My mother had no skills...but she loved us....and I thank God to this day she didn't put us in a foster home...imo, that would have been true abandonment and failure.

You really don't know enough to judge them.

I'm not trying to undermine you personal success in overcoming adversity, but if your father was such a loser, why on earth did your parents have kids in the first place? It's one thing when an unforeseeable misfortune triggers a descent into poverty, but to bring children into the world when you know you won't be able to provide a proper home environment seems the height of irresponsibility to me.
 

Lanyap

Elite Member
Dec 23, 2000
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I'm not trying to undermine you personal success in overcoming adversity, but if your father was such a loser, why on earth did your parents have kids in the first place? It's one thing when an unforeseeable misfortune triggers a descent into poverty, but to bring children into the world when you know you won't be able to provide a proper home environment seems the height of irresponsibility to me.


Sex.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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I'm not trying to undermine you personal success in overcoming adversity, but if your father was such a loser, why on earth did your parents have kids in the first place? It's one thing when an unforeseeable misfortune triggers a descent into poverty, but to bring children into the world when you know you won't be able to provide a proper home environment seems the height of irresponsibility to me.
Very few people get married and spawn thinking they are losers. Instead, something happens - injury, mental illness, addiction - at a later point that leaves them unable to fully function. And of course, some people think they have life all figured out and only later learn how wrong they are. Maybe that great job at the plant vanishes when the plant closes or moves to China or Mexico (or South Carolina or Tennessee), leaving one without formal education and with obsolete job skills. Maybe expenses grow while income decreases, until that piece of land can no longer produce a living. Doc Savage Fan's a pretty sharp fellow, so I'm guessing his father was more or less the same until something happened from which he never recovered. It's not an uncommon story. I know people who in and/or just out of high school had it all, the hot girl, the hot car, the well-paying job. Then something happens, often just the well-paying job for which they dropped out of high school goes away, sometimes addiction, sometimes an injury, and they simply never recover. It's like they just give up, just quit trying, can't see any way forward.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
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An 11 year old child has extremely limited cognitive capacity to recognize dangers and risks associated with their behavior. The brain isn't even fully developed until the early 20s. One of the problems that teenagers have with assessing risk is that other areas of the brain develop more rapidly than the frontal cortex, associated with executive functioning and decision making. Associating a child, nay ANYONE, being raped due to the actions of anyone other than that of the perpetrator is nothing more than victim blaming.

It doesn't matter what she wore or what her parents did. Fact is that thousands of rapes occur everyday, and it doesn't really matter what their background is or what they or their parents did.

Focusing on the actions of the victim and parents is a convenient way of ignoring our societies substantial problems with sexual violence and the fact that most communities are no longer safe. These are societal and cultural problems, not problems with individuals. We need to wake up and realize that if we all continue to live as individuals the only thing we will succeed in doing is failing as a group. We all need to think a bit more complexly about why the world is the way it is.

As far as pedophilia is concerned, it strikes me as somewhat horrifying that some believe that the victim's dress is involved in any significant way. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. Clothing has little to do with it. Their attraction often has to do with a sense of power and deeper psychological underpinnings. They could easily find a girl in a school uniform attractive. Put it another way, have you never found yourself attracted to someone despite their appearance?
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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An 11 year old child has extremely limited cognitive capacity to recognize dangers and risks associated with their behavior. The brain isn't even fully developed until the early 20s. One of the problems that teenagers have with assessing risk is that other areas of the brain develop more rapidly than the frontal cortex, associated with executive functioning and decision making. Associating a child, nay ANYONE, being raped due to the actions of anyone other than that of the perpetrator is nothing more than victim blaming.

It doesn't matter what she wore or what her parents did. Fact is that thousands of rapes occur everyday, and it doesn't really matter what their background is or what they or their parents did.

Focusing on the actions of the victim and parents is a convenient way of ignoring our societies substantial problems with sexual violence and the fact that most communities are no longer safe. These are societal and cultural problems, not problems with individuals. We need to wake up and realize that if we all continue to live as individuals the only thing we will succeed in doing is failing as a group. We all need to think a bit more complexly about why the world is the way it is.

As far as pedophilia is concerned, it strikes me as somewhat horrifying that some believe that the victim's dress is involved in any significant way. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to children. Clothing has little to do with it. Their attraction often has to do with a sense of power and deeper psychological underpinnings. They could easily find a girl in a school uniform attractive. Put it another way, have you never found yourself attracted to someone despite their appearance?
Two things. First, her dressing might (or might not) have influenced the animals to react to her as a woman rather than as a child. No way to know, but in general dressing provocatively increases your chances of being raped. If you doubt that, talk to a detective. There are two basic ways people become victims, being in the wrong place or attracting attention from the wrong people.

The second thing is the second part of being selected as a victim, being in the wrong place. Had her parents succeeded in keeping her at home and supervised - and I'm sure they tried to do so - then this particular atrocity would not have happened. It's not a perfect shield, as there are plenty of victims who simply happened to be in the house selected to be robbed, or who were sighted and targeted at home, but in general an 11 year old at home is hugely more safe than an 11 year old hanging around with teenagers and older.

We should indeed keep the emphasis on the perpetrators, as what they did was actively, intentionally evil rather than a simple failure or lack of judgment. But not to the point of ignoring the contributions of one's own behavior on one's safety.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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First, her dressing might (or might not) have influenced the animals to react to her as a woman rather than as a child. No way to know, but in general dressing provocatively increases your chances of being raped. If you doubt that, talk to a detective.

You keep repeating this, is there any evidence for it at all? Dressing sexy will lead to more attention from everyone. Attention is not how rapists choose their prey. Female joggers get raped regardless of clothing. Women walking alone at night get raped regardless of clothing. Dates get raped regardless of clothing. Ugly conservatively dressed grandmothers get raped regardless of clothing. Rape is about power and vulnerability. Raping the uptight stuffily dressed woman is a more likely scenario than raping the party girl since the former is apparently not interested in attention making the violation more rewarding for the sicko, and the party girl as a focus of attention makes her a much harder target to isolate. You might as well say dressing more conservatively makes you more attractive to rapists. If you have anything to backup your continued assertion feel free to post it. Every study I've seen says clothing motivating rape is myth.

As to detectives, no disrespect, but that'd be confirmation bias more likely than not. Most rape victims aren't "hot" so the cop can focus on finding a real motivating factor or cause if one even exists besides the twisted mind of the perpetrator. When the victim was hot or dressed sexily, "ah, that must have been why."

Succintly put, some rapists might like sexy girls, some rapists might like dowdy girls, thus, dressing to avoid rape is a fools errand and placing attention on clothing only serves to distract from the 100% fault of the rapist.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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You keep repeating this, is there any evidence for it at all? Dressing sexy will lead to more attention from everyone. Attention is not how rapists choose their prey. Female joggers get raped regardless of clothing. Women walking alone at night get raped regardless of clothing. Dates get raped regardless of clothing. Ugly conservatively dressed grandmothers get raped regardless of clothing. Rape is about power and vulnerability. Raping the uptight stuffily dressed woman is a more likely scenario than raping the party girl since the former is apparently not interested in attention making the violation more rewarding for the sicko, and the party girl as a focus of attention makes her a much harder target to isolate. You might as well say dressing more conservatively makes you more attractive to rapists. If you have anything to backup your continued assertion feel free to post it. Every study I've seen says clothing motivating rape is myth.

As to detectives, no disrespect, but that'd be confirmation bias more likely than not. Most rape victims aren't "hot" so the cop can focus on finding a real motivating factor or cause if one even exists besides the twisted mind of the perpetrator. When the victim was hot or dressed sexily, "ah, that must have been why."
It's going to be hard to prove that, especially since today it's very politically incorrect to suggest that anything about the victim in any way contributed to her being raped, or in other words that rape is always a crime of aggression against victims always selected at random. There are however a couple of indications. First, I'm sure if you're interested in the subject that you've seen studies on attitudes toward rape, like this. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7676869
Abstract

A vignette depicting a date rape was presented to 352 male and female high school students. To investigate the effect of the victim's clothing on subjects' judgments of the date rape, the vignette was accompanied by either a photograph of the victim dressed provocatively, a photograph of the victim dressed conservatively, or no photograph. Subjects who viewed the photograph of the victim in provocative clothing were more likely than subjects who viewed the victim dressed conservatively or who saw no photograph of the victim to indicate that the victim was responsible for her assailant's behavior, that his behavior was justified, and were less likely to judge the act of unwanted sexual intercourse as rape.
While not conclusive, it seems reasonable that if men are more likely to reject a charge of rape for provocatively dressed victims, they are also more likely to overcome their (hopefully innate) revulsion toward raping another human being.

Crooks and Bauer made reference to "a number of studies":
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mp...q=influence%20of clothing on rape&f=false
A number of studies have found that men regard rape as justifiable, or at least hold the woman more responsible than themselves, if she leads a man on by such actions as dressing "suggestively" or going to his apartment (Muchlenhard et al., 1991; Workman and Freeburg, 1999.)
Again, while not conclusive, this tends to support my point. We saw the same thing acted out with Kobe Bryant; when a woman presents an image that she is there for sex, some men will rape them, justifying in their minds as "Well, she wanted sex, I gave it to her" or "slut got what she deserved." Any appearance or behavior that can help a potential rapist justify his behavior makes it easier for him to do the deed.

This whole area is very difficult to evaluate for several reasons. Victims seldom want to discuss a rape, much less what (if anything) they might have to done to avoid it. Rapists are interested primarily in reducing the appearance and magnitude of their own guilt, at least for sentencing and parole purposes even if they have nary a shred on conscious left. Feminists are interested primarily in making sure that no stigma attaches to woman and that their freedom is not in any way constrained, even to the point of denying reality.

Nonetheless, there are certain undeniable things one can say about rape, such as its diverse causes. First is aggression; the rapist wants to enforce his will on another. Second is anger, toward all women or toward a certain type of woman, or even toward a particular individual, that drives the rapist to rape someone he sees as representative of that group to punish the group as a whole and thereby make himself feel better. Third is lust; the rapist wants to have sex with a particular woman (or even ANY woman) and has no conscious, so he takes what he wants without the slightest concern for the woman. Fourth is a demonstration of manhood, often seen in gang rapes. A young man might not be a threat alone, but in the gang situation participates in a gang rape in order to demonstrate his manhood to his peers. Only the third necessarily requires a woman the rapist finds attractive; although anger might drive a rapist to rape sexily dressed women, his anger might equally be against middle-aged women in house dresses. However, notice that while the third motivation definitely tilts in favor of provocatively dressed women, none of the other motivations necessarily tilt in favor of conservatively dressed women. That alone increases the odds of a provocatively dressed women being raped.

I should also emphasize again that in no way does this mitigate the rapists' guilt or attach any blame to the girl or to the parents for the rape. She has a perfect right to not be raped even if she is masturbating naked on a car hood. And even the most conservatively dressed woman working in a police station and living next door is not 100% safe against rape. But in my opinion, this politically correct notion that appearance and location have zero influence on a woman's chances of being raped are poorly serving women, much in the way that refusing to admit that HIV/AIDS was being spread in homosexual bath houses poorly served homosexual men. Failure to recognize the world as it is makes poor armor against evil.

EDIT: If you can find it, Camille Paglia did some excellent writing on this source.
 
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jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
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First let's dispense with anyone implying that anyone is saying rape is ok or that any woman or man deserves it, it'll save a lot of ink in back and forth.

While not conclusive, it seems reasonable that if men are more likely to reject a charge of rape for provocatively dressed victims, they are also more likely to overcome their (hopefully innate) revulsion toward raping another human being.

Crooks and Bauer made reference to "a number of studies":

Again, while not conclusive, this tends to support my point.

Unless your point was that men have a bias against women dressed provocatively, then I don't think it supports your conclusion at all. The reaction of men to whether or not a woman deserved or invites or justifies a rape has zero to do with whether or not rapists are generally or specifically motivated by dress. All it speaks to is male society's views of women. If you asked any of those participants if a woman dressed provocatively would make them even marginally more likely to rape her, I'm thinking you'll be met with a chorus of "what?? no!"

We saw the same thing acted out with Kobe Bryant; when a woman presents an image that she is there for sex, some men will rape them, justifying in their minds as "Well, she wanted sex, I gave it to her" or "slut got what she deserved." Any appearance or behavior that can help a potential rapist justify his behavior makes it easier for him to do the deed.

This is a bit of a tangent for several reasons, mainly being we don't actually know what happened in that case, and IIRC the girl had semen stains from multiple partners on her underwear, told her friends she was going to have sex with him, and I think she'd had a history of mental instability.

Nonetheless, there are certain undeniable things one can say about rape, such as its diverse causes. First is aggression; the rapist wants to enforce his will on another. Second is anger, toward all women or toward a certain type of woman, or even toward a particular individual, that drives the rapist to rape someone he sees as representative of that group to punish the group as a whole and thereby make himself feel better. Third is lust; the rapist wants to have sex with a particular woman (or even ANY woman) and has no conscious, so he takes what he wants without the slightest concern for the woman. Fourth is a demonstration of manhood, often seen in gang rapes. A young man might not be a threat alone, but in the gang situation participates in a gang rape in order to demonstrate his manhood to his peers. Only the third necessarily requires a woman the rapist finds attractive; although anger might drive a rapist to rape sexily dressed women, his anger might equally be against middle-aged women in house dresses. However, notice that while the third motivation definitely tilts in favor of provocatively dressed women, none of the other motivations necessarily tilt in favor of conservatively dressed women. That alone increases the odds of a provocatively dressed women being raped.

If you argue that it comes down to what the rapist finds attractive, you're assuming slutty dress attracts more rapists than another style, say business suit, or jeans, or a man's shirt and hornrim glasses. Given the diverse causes you list, asserting with certainty that provocative dress increases the likelihood of rape may still "feel" like it has to be true, but remains unsupported.

In any event, I think the clothing discussion is predominantly a distraction to the issue. She could have been wearing a beekeepers suit, haning out with delinquent fucks like those pricks wasn't going to end well. After Columbine the 'experts' gathered and blamed Marilyn Manson and Mortal Kombat as a causes. Nevermind that untold millions listen to MM and play MK and don't blow up their schools, it was clearly the cause. Today they'd probably focus on the bullying aspect, bullying being so hot right now.

Ed: also, I'm not saying that there isn't any individual rapist out there who isn't motivated by provocative dress; merely that in the aggregate those so motivated don't skew the stats enough that a particular type dress will increase or decrease the odds of rape. IOW, add up the [type 3] rapists who are motivated by the stripper look vs all remaining [type 3] who like every other type of look and dress becomes moot.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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SNIP
In any event, I think the clothing discussion is predominantly a distraction to the issue. She could have been wearing a beekeepers suit, haning out with delinquent fucks like those pricks wasn't going to end well. After Columbine the 'experts' gathered and blamed Marilyn Manson and Mortal Kombat as a causes. Nevermind that untold millions listen to MM and play MK and don't blow up their schools, it was clearly the cause. Today they'd probably focus on the bullying aspect, bullying being so hot right now.
I agree with that; I think by far the biggest factor is availability. If a woman is poor, she has a much higher chance of being raped, probably because men value her less and definitely because statistically she probably lived in closer proximity to rapists. If a woman has a job that involves her walking alone to a bus stop late at night, she has a much higher chance of being raped. If a woman has to regularly go into areas where people are not likely to interfere with a rape, for work or home or family or whatever, she has a much higher chance of being raped. By being in poverty, this child was automatically at higher risk. By choosing to make herself available to the animals who raped her, outside of responsible adult supervision, she placed herself at much higher risk as well.

Ordinarily I suggest such a woman go armed, but in the case of headstrong 11 year old children I'll forgo that suggestion.