Representation without Taxation?

[Lithium381]

Back in the early 1900's, the womens movement used the slogan "taxation without representation", as did the /then/ brits living in America.....
meaning they were taxed, but had no way of voicing an opinion to the powers-that-be. They got fed up, and here we are today.

But what about representation without taxation? People who contribute nothing to the government(one can argue that they are indeed leeches) are given a voice to keep receiving free support. I think Spidey threw out a 53% number of people who actually contribute to the countrys' coffers...

What say you that if you don't pay taxes, you don't get a vote? It might add a bit of overhead in determining who is eligible, but with computers these days it's completely feasible. Of course Federal taxes and State taxes and Local taxes are all different, and paying state income tax would not automatically qualify you for federal votes....

 

[fskimospy]

Back in the early 1900's, the womens movement used the slogan "taxation without representation", as did the /then/ brits living in America.....
meaning they were taxed, but had no way of voicing an opinion to the powers-that-be. They got fed up, and here we are today.

But what about representation without taxation? People who contribute nothing to the government(one can argue that they are indeed leeches) are given a voice to keep receiving free support. I think Spidey threw out a 53% number of people who actually contribute to the countrys' coffers...

What say you that if you don't pay taxes, you don't get a vote? It might add a bit of overhead in determining who is eligible, but with computers these days it's completely feasible. Of course Federal taxes and State taxes and Local taxes are all different, and paying state income tax would not automatically qualify you for federal votes....

The '53%' thing is for federal income taxes specifically. Those who do not pay federal income taxes pay lots of other taxes, including other federal ones. The idea that they do not contribute the country's coffers is just another one of spidey's delusional ideas.

Oh, and what you are trying to do is explicitly prohibited by the 24th Amendment to the Constitution. Taxation as a prerequisite to voting was shown to be a horrible idea in practice, with a long history of abuse.

 

[Thump553]

That's the official slogan on Washington, DC license plates.

 

[xBiffx]

The '53%' thing is for federal income taxes specifically. Those who do not pay federal income taxes pay lots of other taxes, including other federal ones. The idea that they do not contribute the country's coffers is just another one of spidey's delusional ideas.

Oh, and what you are trying to do is explicitly prohibited by the 24th Amendment to the Constitution. Taxation as a prerequisite to voting was shown to be a horrible idea in practice, with a long history of abuse.

OK so you agree that some people pay no FEDERAL income tax. Then I guess this would only apply to US elections, i.e. US rep, Sen, Pres. Since, as you say, they pay "other" taxes, then its seems that then he is making the case that they would vote in "other" elections.

 

[piasabird]

What about the gas tax and SS Tax???

Everyone that works is paying some kind of federal tax!

 

[Jaskalas]

Vote Cain, enact 9-9-9 and NO ONE will be without Taxation. Problem solved.

 

[xBiffx]

What about the gas tax and SS Tax???

Everyone that works is paying some kind of federal tax!

Income tax? Seems this is the source of money for most of the government programs which your vote on. Also, how does working automatically mean you pay gas tax?

 

[fskimospy]

OK so you agree that some people pay no FEDERAL income tax. Then I guess this would only apply to US elections, i.e. US rep, Sen, Pres. Since, as you say, they pay "other" taxes, then its seems that then he is making the case that they would vote in "other" elections.

I said they pay other FEDERAL taxes, so I don't know why your distinction matters.

Also, what you proposed for federal elections is totally irrelevant anyway as it is explicitly unconstitutional to bar people from voting for US representatives, Senators, and the Presidency based on payments of any tax, federal or otherwise.

Text of the 24th amendment:

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

 

[xBiffx]

I said they pay other FEDERAL taxes, so I don't know why your distinction matters.

Also, what you proposed for federal elections is totally irrelevant anyway as it is explicitly unconstitutional to bar people from voting for US representatives, Senators, and the Presidency based on payments of any tax, federal or otherwise.

Text of the 24th amendment:

Isn't this topic about changing that? Seems like I was just elaborating.

 

[piasabird]

I think we should also have a federal sales tax to supplement the income tax. It would be a way to raise federal revenue without hurting too much. I am for a kind of hybrid tax system where we can have a lower income tax and also a sales tax. That way everyone will pay a little tax for what they buy. So if you buy a lot you will contribute a lot also.

SSTAX is a tax. Even if you dont drive whatever form of travel you use someone is paying for the fuel/energy to get you to work, unless you walk or ride a bicycle. There ae a lot of other taxes that apply also from taxes having to do with phones, to cigarette and alcohol tax to a wide variety of taxes that people pay or wholesalers or distributors pay simply because we are buying goods and services. There are a lot of stealth taxes.

 

[fskimospy]

Vote Cain, enact 9-9-9 and NO ONE will be without Taxation. Problem solved.

There is always the problem that Cain's 9-9-9 plan is an insanely horrible idea however.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/inside-the-cain-tax-plan/

 

[fskimospy]

Isn't this topic about changing that? Seems like I was just elaborating.

I don't know, the OP makes no mention of the 24th amendment, and given his other posting history I would be terribly surprised to find out he didn't know about it.

If the post is about reintroducing poll taxes, then the answer is easy: oh jesus, no.

 

[xBiffx]

There is always the problem that Cain's 9-9-9 plan is an insanely horrible idea however.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/11/inside-the-cain-tax-plan/

Yeah, for one, WTF is an Empowerment Zone? Seems like he isn't eliminating all deductions, just changing definitions.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe only landowners should get to vote. If you dont have skin in the game, then you should not get to vote. Also anyone oweing property tax should be exempted from voting.

 

[JSt0rm]

Maybe only landowners should get to vote. If you dont have skin in the game, then you should not get to vote.

White land owners

 

[Paul98]

Screw all you guys, I should be the only one who can vote!

 

[MovingTarget]

If you are taxed, then you should have representation in government.

Most people agree on this. However, considering the above statement as true does not mean that you must also subscribe to its converse.

This "53%" thing is nothing more than a poor attempt to discredit those who do not think that excessive concentration of wealth is becoming a problem.

 

[Lithium381]

My main point was that those who benifit from the system do not contribute to it, and yet get to vote for its perpetuation...... and who isn't going to vote for free stuff?

I understand Eskimo's point about the 24th..... which is fine, but since most "entitlements" are handled at the state level(to my knowledge) then my original premise stands.

 

[fskimospy]

My main point was that those who benifit from the system do not contribute to it, and yet get to vote for its perpetuation...... and who isn't going to vote for free stuff?

I understand Eskimo's point about the 24th..... which is fine, but since most "entitlements" are handled at the state level(to my knowledge) then my original premise stands.

Actually poll taxes have been found unconstitutional at state and local levels as well. (Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections)

 

[woolfe9999]

LOL disenfranchise the poor. Great idea! I have another one. How about we disenfranchise anyone who doesn't accept the scientific evidence of evolution, or thinks that the earth is less than 10,000 years old? Those people are too stupid to vote anyway. Sounds good to me.

 

[BudAshes]

Guess the Op never heard of sales tax.

 

[JTsyo]

When it really boils down, only ATPN deserves to vote. All national elections should be determined by polls here.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

That would be a good point if it wasn't lobbiest and corporations that ultimately determine who people get to vote for anyway.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
What say you that if you don't pay taxes, you don't get a vote?

Bad idea.

IMO, the whole concept of "taxation without representation" is over-rated, misunderstood and erroneous.

I pay a butt-load of real prop taxes on my office building located within city limits, but since I don't personally live within the city I don't get a vote. I pay far more tax than many of those who get to vote. Taxation w/o representation? You bet your sweet azz it is.

Additionally, realize that we didn't even have an income tax until 1913. Seems we got along just fine without the whole "taxation without representation" thing for quite a while. (BTW: I don't consider all the other federal taxes relevant in this discussion. They are basically user fees, such as tax on gas for the highways etc. E.g., I pay 'user fees' for my internet account and it doesn't allow to vote on their corporate matters etc.)

If you are taxed, then you should have representation in government.

Most people agree on this.

Really?

If they do they haven't thought about it very much.

Should illegal aliens who pay (withholding) tax here get the right to vote? Of course not. Foreigners who make money here pay tax to the USA and they don't get to vote. Neither do green card holders living and working here. US citizens who pay tax to other countries on income from there don't get a vote.

Income taxation, IMO opinion and that of many other tax professionals, should be tied to the source of the income (you pay the tax to the country where the income originated from). Voting rights should be tied to citizenship.

My main point was that those who benifit from the system do not contribute to it, and yet get to vote for its perpetuation...... and who isn't going to vote for free stuff?
-snip-

A big problem, and was foreseen by the Founding Fathers. Their obvious solution was no federal benefits, but we blew that one quite a while ago. Seems to me their other solution was no income tax, just user fees and war taxes (when necessary); but, again, we blew that too.

Fern

 

[xBiffx]

A big problem, and was foreseen by the Founding Fathers. Their obvious solution was no federal benefits, but we blew that one quite a while ago. Seems to me their other solution was no income tax, just user fees and war taxes (when necessary); but, again, we blew that too.

A big QFT.