Replumbing entire house

[paperfist]

Meh, Im not a plumber. I dont have many plumbing tools and have even less skill. I just learned how to sweat pipe recently. When dealing with dwv, probably best to leave it to pros as sewer accidents are expensive to fix and have the effect of driving away rental business.

I would seriously consider it if I found a plumber that was willing to do exactly what you suggest and replace only rotted sections. But thats not code and when a pro with a license touches it, they are insistent on doing it by the books. So the whole system is going away.





Thats actually a great idea and asked my plumber to implement it. Thanks. Why build a "contraption" out of 2x4s (hours of billable time) to support 3 feet of hanging pipe from the roof rafters when I have already decided to put a proper pipe boot on the roof. At best, the pipe will just need to be temporarily supported to not disturb the seal until it can be replaced at end of this project with PVC. Box it in and support it using some scrap wood nailed to the ceiling joists of second floor.

I guess in hind site messing with old cast is probably not wise. It's a nightmare to take apart at the hubs with the leads and sealants they used. You would likely end up with a maze of Ferco couplings and those aren't cheap or pretty.

I've been itching to buy a rental property so it's interesting to follow along your threads about your adventure. Thanks for sharing.

 

[NetWareHead]

I guess in hind site messing with old cast is probably not wise. It's a nightmare to take apart at the hubs with the leads and sealants they used. You would likely end up with a maze of Ferco couplings and those aren't cheap or pretty.

I've been itching to buy a rental property so it's interesting to follow along your threads about your adventure. Thanks for sharing.

The thing is that I would love to keep the cast iron. I'm old school and very particular. I enjoy creating quality unique rental units and finding those sorts of tenants that also approve and pay for these sorts of things too. This house has the original tin ceilings for instance in remarkably good condition. I know most run of the mill tenants wont care for them but there are those that do. So I hope to get good rents out of it as well as a tenant that will develop a bond with the unit and take good care of it. Back to the cast iron, when it doesnt rot (lol) it is a better waste pipe for the sound deadening qualities alone.

Sometimes budget reasons dictate I put in PEX and PVC instead of cast iron and copper. The desire to never have to open the walls again for plumbing reasons is also strongly desired.

Get pre-approved for a mortgage soon if you want to. The feds will most likely raise the rates soon (if rumors are to be beleived). Beleive this will be the first increase since 2006

 

[DrPizza]

Afaik, Pex A leaches, pex B doesn't. B kinks and cannot be repaired with a heatgun or torch like pex A. But a coupling is easy to install in the unlikely event of a kink. B also has "memory" -want,ing to coil back up. Not that big of a deal though.

 

[Micrornd]

I missed something along the way. Green stain on copper doesn't indicate a leak, it's generally old flux and it could become a problem in a couple hundred years.

True, it's not a problem.

But it does indicate the difference between an install and a proper, quality install, especially when it is around threaded joints, packing nuts and a 90 that appears to have been dipped in flux.

Makes you wonder if there is anything else they may have done "good enough"? :hmm:

 

[NetWareHead]

Update: While waiting for the plumber to start on the sewer pipe replacement, the thing ended up failing anyway. Came downstairs to the basement one day greeted by a pool of water on the floor. Found a gap in the cast iron that allows dirty water to run out.

While I wanted to replace this pipe because it was opportune to do so (both tenant units vacant and gutted to studs and subfloors), now I have no choice and have to do it now.

It looks like the section of CI that failed is an extremely thin section that was held together by rust. I had to rent a 20 pound demolition hammer recently to remove a tile floor from hell. Some of the thickest tiles I've ever seen (3/4 inch thick!) with an equally thick layer of grout poured on top of wire mesh nailed to plywood underlayment. I was able to remove all other tiles with a regular hammer but not these one. The demo hammer busted all of this up but Im thinking the vibrations carried their way throughout the structure and forced the pipe to finally give out.

The basement stinks like sewer gas so I used electrical tape to cover up the hole as best as possible. I looked into the pipe and its rusted as hell from the inside too, all jagged, rusty and eaten up. I dont know how the hell this pipe has any structural strength to carry the weight of the stack from the attic, down 2 more floors and into the basement. I may be able to easily break it with a hammer than having to sawzall it... I'm also afraid that if I begin to work on it, it may collapse on its own. It may be a good idea to get some help to hold the pipe while I cut it...

Should I be worried about the buried CI pipe under the concrete basement floor? If the pipe looks this bad above ground, what about the rest of it that I'm not changing? What about the rest of the run to the street? I could ask my plumber and see if he has a camera that can asess the condition of the buried sewer pipe. Appreciate any advice...

 

[Greenman]

Running a camera in it is a good idea. If it's toast they can pull a new pipe through it and it will be as good as new, and it's never going to be cheaper or easier than right now.

 

[Micrornd]

Running a camera in it is a good idea. If it's toast they can pull a new pipe through it and it will be as good as new, and it's never going to be cheaper or easier than right now.

Exactly.
Most of the Roto-Rooter franchisees in my area can camera, and are normally cheaper than independent plumbers here, if that helps.

 

[DrPizza]

I'd like to retract the idea of waiting for the roof to be redone before replacing the last section of the stack that vents out of the roof. I'm putting in a new vent today for the new laundry area & new bathroom; it's insanely easy to seal it; the boot's only $20.

 

[NetWareHead]

Update: Started cutting the cast iron stack yesterday. Project is split up in two phases: Sewer stack removal and removal of bad supply copper plumbing in kitchen/bathroom.

I've really come to dislike plumbing demolition. Drywall/framing demolition is acceptable, flooring demo is hard and u need to pull up a ton of nails but plumbing demo is the worst kind of demo so far I've encountered in this house. Pipes dont empty all the way and when you start saw-zalling them, they pee all over you and you have to back away the tool really quick so it doesnt get wet. Cast iron demo needs a $30 diamond sawzall blade that is good for like 5 cuts. And I have extra heavy grade (XH) pipe which my back appreciates carrying (the weight of even a short 2-3 foot section is very surprising). And of course, XH needs about 30-40 whacks with a 2 pound sledgehammer before it breaks. Im fricking exhausted and there is still more pipe to demo.

I am accumulating a nice collection of scrap piping that I will haul to the junk yard that my plumber instructed me on how to sort. #1 copper is pure copper without joints (solder). #2 copper that has solder on it. Cast iron and brass piping.

We temporarily connnected a PVC run so I can use a toilet and shower to wash paint brushes etc...

Regarding the roofing penetration, we built a very sturdy platform out of scrap 2x4s to hug the pipe. Then put a pipe clamp on it and nailed it to the wood securely. When we started cutting, I was surprised at how little the pipe was not moving. I put a bucket under the pipe in case of a leak and will get a roofer to reboot the pipe soon.

2 tips I can offer to anybody demoing cast iron. First is wear safety goggles. Had a metal splinter shoot out after whacking it with the hammer and hit my safety glasses. Second is close your mouth when cutting a pipe. Yeah, a tic-tac sized piece of gunk that I prefer not think what that really was was kicked out by the saw blade and flew into my open mouth while I was grunting. Really disgusting and not really the kind of breath freshener I was looking for. Anyway, I'll post pics of the project soon.

 

[DrPizza]

2 tips I can offer to anybody demoing cast iron. First is wear safety goggles. Had a metal splinter shoot out after whacking it with the hammer and hit my safety glasses. Second is close your mouth when cutting a pipe. Yeah, a tic-tac sized piece of gunk that I prefer not think what that really was was kicked out by the saw blade and flew into my open mouth while I was grunting. Really disgusting and not really the kind of breath freshener I was looking for. Anyway, I'll post pics of the project soon.

Whacking it with a hammer? Saw blade?? Tip #3: don't do it that way! You can rent this tool for the cost of a couple of blades. It honestly takes less than 3 minutes for each cut of the cast iron. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76UdL1Gzx48&t=3m No whacking with a hammer, no saw blade kicking gunk back at your face.

 

[Micrornd]

Second is close your mouth when cutting a pipe. Yeah, a tic-tac sized piece of gunk that I prefer not think what that really was was kicked out by the saw blade and flew into my open mouth while I was grunting. Really disgusting and not really the kind of breath freshener I was looking for.

:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin: That's just hilarious :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Truth is though, anybody that has done any amount of plumbing and says it has never happened to them.........is just lying :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

 

[NetWareHead]

Whacking it with a hammer? Saw blade?? Tip #3: don't do it that way! You can rent this tool for the cost of a couple of blades. It honestly takes less than 3 minutes for each cut of the cast iron. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76UdL1Gzx48&t=3m No whacking with a hammer, no saw blade kicking gunk back at your face.

I agree the ratchet cutter is the fastest but I don't always have access to the entire circumference of the pipe especially in the higher floors of the house where it is in-between walls or next to a stud or beam. Even the sawzall won't exactly reach either so hammering will have to work. I have a cold chisel too to concentrate the force on a smaller area if need be.

We still used a sawzall in the basement because we needed a clean and straight cut rather than snapping off the pipe. Where we are sawing is the attachment point for the future replacement pvc. We didn't want to risk a crushed pipe or a lengthwise crack.

I am so tempted to rent an angle grinder but decided against. They throw so many sparks when cutting metal and given the age of the wood framing, I think the fire risk is great.

 

[Micrornd]

There have been close quarters where I have had to cut a "window" in the CI and cut it from the inside out on larger pipes.
An angle grinder works well for that and the sparks are contained (for the most part).
Gloves are mandatory.

 

[NetWareHead]

There have been close quarters where I have had to cut a "window" in the CI and cut it from the inside out on larger pipes.
An angle grinder works well for that and the sparks are contained (for the most part).
Gloves are mandatory.

Good idea on the windowing. I'd get a face sheild too after listening to a buddy of mine describe how a cutting disk disintegrated and pieces embedded in a nearby wall. Those grinders are serious tools!

 

[NetWareHead]

I feel beat to hell all over. No wonder plumbers moved to ABS and PVC piping. You can plumb a house in one day and by yourself with plastic. I cant see how you could install (or demolish) cast iron by yourself. My fiance helped me and there was no way I could have done the job alone. Cutting a pipe and having to catch the higher piece after it snaps. Plenty of times and places for something to go wrong. Surprised we did it without injury....

You might be asking, "well why didnt you cut the pipe to more manageable section. You had a snap cutter right?" That tool didnt not work out as well as we had hoped. We needed to make about 10 snaps to produce easy to manage pieces. We could only do 2-3 total snaps. I remember one time I had the snap cutter on a section of the stack. Tightened it and attached the ratcheting tool. Kept tightening it and at one point I could not tighten it any further. I decided to step off the ladder and slowly allow my entire body weight (+205 pounds!) to hang by the handle of the ratcheting tool to see if I could ratchet tighter. Nothing, the pipe would not snap! I removed the snap cutter and inspected the circumference of the pipe. All of the cutting discs had made contact and left deep gouges in the pipe. I attached the cutter again and again nothing. I really dont know what I did wrong?!? Throwing the snap cutter aside, I got out the 3 pound sledge and cold chisel and starting demolishing the closest available hub. Every cut that night was made this way. As a result, I had to cut sections only where there was already a hub so thats why we were lugging 5-6 foot pipe sections.

If I knew we had to work with such heavy sections, I would have asked one of my guy friends for some muscle. Imagine the dilemma, I have a 6 foot section of pipe in the attic, the useless snap cutter cant cut it. I was considering postponing until we got some more help but she wanted to at least try. I had lay on my belly with arms hanging out of the attic hatch lowering 100 pounds to my fiance on a ladder (no fold down stairs). I had no idea how we were going to get the pipe out of the attic and was worried for her safety. She insisted we go on and yelled at me to let go and let her have it. One of the scariest moments as I transferred the weight to her. In shock I watched as she slowly descended the ladder with the pipe and safely laid it on the floor. She might be 5'1" but she is tougher than she looks The non functioning pipe cutter really screwed up our plans and we were unable to finish in one night.

There was a difference in the pipes I was able to snap and the ones I wasn't. I have extra heavy (XH) in the lower portions of the stack that sees water, toilet flow etc. The rest of the stack (higher portions for ventilation) was most likely service weight (SV). There is a marked difference in the thickness of the pipes when put next to one another. (pics to follow) Has anyone successfuly used a snap cutter on XH pipe? Or could offer an explanation on why it wouldn't work??

I also have to comment on the quality of workmanship from whoever that plumber was in 1890 when the house was built. Every joint was beautiful, strong and survived to present date. I almost felt bad for beating it to pieces. The bead of lead extended an inch into the hub and the oakum was in great condition. :thumbsup:

 

[NetWareHead]

So I figured it out. I rented a Rigid 226 pipe cutter (all home depot had) and never knew it has a beefier brother: Rigid 246 which is made for XH pipe up to 5 inch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q7nLl1CzBQ Appears to be same pipe cutter spectacularly failing trying to cut 10" XH pipe (can cut up to a 5 inch XH pipe). I now think had we pushed the pipe cutter last night even further, it would have broken.

Next time I'll go to a different rental place and get the XH rated cutter. Live and learn!

 

[Micrornd]

I've never used or considered a ratcheting cutter.
I always used a hydraulic.
It has a small hand pump similar to the type on a porta-power.
I've cut 12" XH with that type.
If you can find one at a rental store, that's what I would use.

All of the cutting discs had made contact and left deep gouges in the pipe.

When this happens, it is important to reposition the cutters so they are not in the gouges, but on the unblemished pipe in between the gouges.

Just be happy the house is new enough that no one has mixed in DI (ductile iron) pipe. :biggrin:
Those chain cutters only distort DI, it has to be cut by friction.

 

[NetWareHead]

When this happens, it is important to reposition the cutters so they are not in the gouges, but on the unblemished pipe in between the gouges.

I figured the gouges were areas of weakness so lets create more weakness areas. Rotated the chain slightly and began tightening. I'll post pics soon that detail the differences between XH and SV.

Just be happy the house is new enough that no one has mixed in DI (ductile iron) pipe. :biggrin:
Those chain cutters only distort DI, it has to be cut by friction.

Thanks for the tip. Will look up the differences and how to spot them.

 

[Micrornd]

Just be happy the house is new enough that no one has mixed in DI (ductile iron) pipe. :biggrin:
Those chain cutters only distort DI, it has to be cut by friction.

Screwed that up.
Meant to say OLD enough, Not new enough.
DI is newer than CI, not older.
Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Micrornd]

I figured the gouges were areas of weakness so lets create more weakness areas. Rotated the chain slightly and began tightening. I'll post pics soon that detail the differences between XH and SV.

They are areas of weakness, that's why you want to reposition to the unweakened areas.
As you "gouge" it hairline cracks begin connecting the "gouges".
The closer the "gouges" are together, the thinner the metal the hairline cracks have to "crack" through to join into one large break.
The thicker the metal is between the "gouges," the harder for the cracks to connect to each other

 

[NetWareHead]

Pipe before failure: https://goo.gl/photos/vNVCXPvLuW1vveUy5 Note patching compound

Pipe after failure: https://goo.gl/photos/P9FYAnCHhTdQzbTW6 Happened after I used demo hammer in house to bust up tile floor. I think the vibrations carried through house and finally caused this pipe to fail.

Cast iron stack cut down to floor and new PVC tied in: https://goo.gl/photos/53SachBF2A1apsRZA This is a temporary stack that was hooked up to one toilet and a shower stall so we have a bathroom, place to wash hands & paintbrushes etc...

Cast iron stack remaining in the attic: https://goo.gl/photos/XYnmv2iWEe3R4euH9 Temporarily supported by some scrap 2x4s we nailed to attic floor joists. Clamp on pipe secured to 2x4 with screws. Pretty secure and not going anywhere. Bucket placed underneath vertical pipe to catch any leaks and rainwater down the pipe.

Vertical remnant of vent stack showing roof penetration: https://goo.gl/photos/mfYrqrwXcuWKEof99. When roofer is ready to work, this will be replaced with PVC as well.

Cutting of stack with diamond blade https://goo.gl/photos/vkgKUgfz9nVgyu7q8

In tighter areas, no clearance for saw so 3 pound sledgehammer and cold chisel used to pry hub apart and remove individual sections:
https://goo.gl/photos/MhK7sQFrvG1rRJ3k7

After hammering, a crack appeared: https://goo.gl/photos/HwwQ3AovTbcqrwyK7

Cold chisel forced into crack https://goo.gl/photos/npnrZyHxeenY1oKb9 and then driven to bottom of hub: https://goo.gl/photos/bhwia5TYMp9whZT49

Portion of hub broken off. Quality plumbing work, note the bead of lead sealing the joint, how far it runs down the hub: https://goo.gl/photos/bdZnAboUEjibfuQaA

Second floor bathroom. Here the pipe transitions from SV to XH strength. Above this bathroom, the pipe is solely used for ventilation purposes. Water damaged subfloor surrounding toilet closet flange removed from floor joists. Note: these are same floor joists I posted about that were overly notched and had too much material removed. Removal of this subfloor will make it easier to sister them https://goo.gl/photos/RK4PFAEyyURLAnPDA

Side by side comparison of service (SV) grade cast iron pipe on left and extra heavy (XH) on right. Note the wall thickness. Shame I had to rip it out as there is plenty of material and strength to last a long time https://goo.gl/photos/djRq514SG5iSqrVt8

Accumulation of pipe scrap in basement. When attic cast iron pipe is finally removed, I'll take a trip over to metal recycler. Copper, brass, cast iron and lead can be seen here https://goo.gl/photos/kP7X5kNuG3gzLqVs7