Replacing existing router in Vista

[boomerang]

I've got three wireless routers here at my disposal at the moment.

Buffalo WHR-G125
Linksys WRT54GL
Netgear WGR614 v9

I've been using the Buffalo right along here at home and had no problems setting it up. Throughout all this, every computer was hard-wired.

Built a computer for a friend and ordered the Linksys for him. Tried and tried and could not get it working - figured it was NFG. I went out locally and bought the Netgear and couldn't get it working either. All of these at my home prior to delivering it to him. Two routers and neither work? Naaah, don't think so.

With either the Linksys or Netgear in place, I can connect an XP box and I'm off and running, so this is definitely a Vista issue.

After much monkeying around I was able to get them both working, but it was a real chore and I'm still not sure what steps I took to do it. I did so many things that I'm confused.

I can't find a step-by step tutorial anywhere. I noticed that each router gets it's own designation. I'm on the Linksys right now and it's Network 3. I get the feeling that Vista keeps configuration settings for, in this case, each router and has a tough time letting go of the previous configuration.

Anyone else run into this situation and have any light to shed?

 

[JackMDS]

The OS does not keep any thing concerning the Router per-se and does not really care what Router is used as long as the Router is compatible with the OS.

The Network 3 is just a label it does not mean that you have 3 networks configured in the OS.

Router are usually very easy to set, if you ould describe in technical term waht is that you di it might be easy to understand waht went Wrong.

 

[boomerang]

I'm seeing this exact same behavior in two Vista 64-bit computers with Comcast. I will refer to only one computer as the symptoms are identical with each. There is no third-party software firewall involved. Every iteration here is hard-wired. No wireless involved. They just happen to all be wireless routers.

The computer was originally put on the 'net with the Buffalo. The default IP of the Buffalo is 192.168.11.1. The router was instantly recognized and the computer was on the 'net.

The Buffalo is taken out of the equation and a Linksys (or Netgear, makes no difference) is installed. The default IP of the Linksys is 192.168.1.1. The computer cannot see the Linksys and of course no Internet connection is available. I should say that everything is shut down or power is removed and restarted in the correct order.

To get it to work, I shut off the Vista firewall, manually set the Default Gateway to the IP of the replacement router. Usually at this point, the router is detected (but not always). I then set the Gateway back to default settings (blank actually), it then will usually still see the router. Then to get an internet connection, I have had to pull the network cable for the computer in question momentarily from the router (easier to get to that the computer itself) and usually the Internet is now available.

I am getting inconsistent results with my "procedure", but the replacement router is consistently not being recognized.

Curiously, when I put the Buffalo back into the mix, it is instantly recognized and the Internet is instantly available. No gyrations needed. I don't even need to reboot the computer. It's like the settings for the Buffalo router are stored. (MAC related?)

I wish I could say for certain that SP1 for Vista caused this behavior, but as all this was started after it's installation, I can't say for certain.

I should say that I have built many, many computers here and have set up many,many routers here at my home. The only MAC address Comcast is concerned about (here anyway) is the MAC of the modem. I have never had to clone a MAC to get anything working. My migration to Vista was recent. Up to now, everything has been XP.

 

[JackMDS]

It does look some OS setting/configuration problem.

Try to disable the IPv6 Stack, make sure that every thing is on Auto Obtain and that the Network Discovery is On.

If you make changes Re-Boot even if the OS does not ask for it.

 

[boomerang]

I've disabled the IPv6 Stack, everything was already on Auto and Discovery is On. I'll reboot, give it a whirl and report back.

 

[boomerang]

No consistent results.

I tried the Netgear first and it was instantly recognized.

The Linksys, I had to go through all the gyrations and couldn't get it working. On a whim, I rebooted and on the second reboot it was recognized.

 

[JackMDS]

While Win98 and XP used to be plagued with many reboots when changing Network settings. There was an effort to reduce to number of reboots in Vista.

Alas, like a lot of other things in life it does not always work.

So as a rule if I make change in the Network setting and it does not take place I reboot before I start playing with the system.

 

[boomerang]

I guess it points to rebooting as the "cure". Time will tell.

For anyone following the thread, I found this.

http://pics.bbzzdd.com/users/boomerang/DelNetLoc.jpg

I'm not sure what Merge would be used for, but there is a Delete button. It appears that Vista does retain network configurations. I can understand Wireless settings being saved, but I fail to see the point in saving connections to the network adapter. But, if I was really smart, I wouldn't be working for a living. 🙂

 

[boomerang]

The Linksys router that was fully recognized last night (after the usual ministrations) and remained in place overnight, is no longer recognized this morning. I'm running Vista Business 64-bit and my wife has Vista Business 32-bit. Her computer instantly recognizes any router I connect hers to.

I'm convinced this is a 64-bit issue as the other computer with the same problems is 64-bit.

Now, to find the answer .............. :frown:

 

[HannibalX]

Strange.

Try turning off DHCP and hardcode the IPs.

 

[boomerang]

I've got a slow day going at work here and have been researching this hot and heavy.

From various Forums I have learned that mine is not an isolated circumstance. Many routers that are certified as Vista ready or compatible are done so for the 32-bit version of the operating system, not the 64-bit version. Users have contacted the manufacturer, gone through trouble-shooting steps, only to eventually be sheepishly told that their product only supports the 32-bit version of Vista.

I have found a knowledgebase article dealing with the issue which I'll have to look at later.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/928233

I have also emailed all the major router companies with the specific question of which models are 64-bit compatible.

I've not mentioned it earlier, but I'm having intermittant connection problems to the Buffalo I'm using too. Once again, only with a 64-bit version of the OS.

This research is starting to make all of this very clear now. Kind of a crock actually. Typical situation where someone has to step up to the plate, the router people or Microsoft. With the consumer in the middle.

 

[Jeff7181]

Call me ignorant, but why would you think the OS has anything to do with the router? Sounds to me like the issue would be between your NIC and the OS, or the NIC and your router.

 

[drebo]

The OS doesn't have anything to do with the router, except in a client configuration role.

If you router is on one subnet and the computer is still on a different subnet (or even if they're the same subnets, but the MAC addresses have changed) you'll have problems.

If you're not making sure to clear your ARP cache and what not, you could potentially have these kinds of issues. Also, DHCP could give you these issues if you're changing them frequently.

I've never had an issue using any router on any OS before, though.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Call me ignorant, but why would you think the OS has anything to do with the router? Sounds to me like the issue would be between your NIC and the OS, or the NIC and your router.

Well, obviously I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed on this stuff, but I think the KB article I linked to in my above post might help explain it.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Call me ignorant, but why would you think the OS has anything to do with the router? Sounds to me like the issue would be between your NIC and the OS, or the NIC and your router.

Well, obviously I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed on this stuff, but I think the KB article I linked to in my above post might help explain it.

I guess I asked the wrong question... why do you think the OS being 32-bit or 64-bit has anything to do with the router? Is DHCP discovery enabled in one and disable in another?

On a similar note, if DHCP discovery is disabled in WinXP, how does it obtain a lease then? Isn't DHCP discovery the first step in obtaining a lease when a client says,

"hey, I'm looking for an IP address"

... to which the DHCP server replies ...

"I can give you this one" and then the client replies...
"ok, I'll take it, thanks everyone else who offered" to which the DHCP server then replies...
"ok, here's your IP address, default gateway, DNS server (etc. etc. etc.)"

If no DHCP discovery broadcast is sent, how does the server know who to offer an IP address to?

(sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, just wondering how DHCP leases can be handed out if DHCP discovery broadcasts don't happen)

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: Jeff7181
Call me ignorant, but why would you think the OS has anything to do with the router? Sounds to me like the issue would be between your NIC and the OS, or the NIC and your router.

Well, obviously I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed on this stuff, but I think the KB article I linked to in my above post might help explain it.

I guess I asked the wrong question... why do you think the OS being 32-bit or 64-bit has anything to do with the router? Is DHCP discovery enabled in one and disable in another? I understand what you're saying. My sole reason for feeling it's a 64-bit issue is that a Vista 32-bit machine under my roof consistently gets an IP address regardless of what router I have in the mix. My 64-bit and the friend's with 64-bit are both having problems. The registry is identical with both versions in this regard (in reference to the KB article). As I said, I understand where you're coming from and agree with your thinking, I'm just not well versed enough in all this to make total sense of it. I should add that I'm seeing posts in other Forums and in Newsgroups with similar problems with the 64-bit version of Vista. I'm not alone in this.

On a similar note, if DHCP discovery is disabled in WinXP, how does it obtain a lease then? Isn't DHCP discovery the first step in obtaining a lease when a client says,

"hey, I'm looking for an IP address"

... to which the DHCP server replies ...

"I can give you this one" and then the client replies...
"ok, I'll take it, thanks everyone else who offered" to which the DHCP server then replies...
"ok, here's your IP address, default gateway, DNS server (etc. etc. etc.)"

If no DHCP discovery broadcast is sent, how does the server know who to offer an IP address to? XP, I don't know, but I can tell you that I have disabled the broadcast in my Vista 64-bit and it's getting an IP consistently now. Probably too early to declare it "fixed" though.

(sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, just wondering how DHCP leases can be handed out if DHCP discovery broadcasts don't happen) No problem, I welcome this kind of discussion, it's how I learn.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: boomerang

I have also emailed all the major router companies with the specific question of which models are 64-bit compatible.

An update;
Linksys just answered back with apologies that they have no wireless routers that support 64-bit Vista at this time.

 

[blahsome]

From my experience, Vista does sometimes recognize that you have changed the router and will designate a new "Network" for it. It then will attempt to ask you whether this is a Public network (e.g. in a internet cafe, airport, or school) or Private network (work, home, etc). You can delete or merge such Networks in your Network and Sharing Center.

In other words, Vista seems to be separating the notion of a Network from the notion of a Network Connection (which is more or less hardware-based). XP deals more or less exclusively with Network Connections, so in that sense XP is definitely less confusing.

What I'm still not clear is that what exact difficulties you were having with Vista.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: boomerang

I have also emailed all the major router companies with the specific question of which models are 64-bit compatible.

An update;
Linksys just answered back with apologies that they have no wireless routers that support 64-bit Vista at this time.

The OS has nothing to do at all with a router. There is no such thing as a router that supports a particular OS. They are not related in any way.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: boomerang

Originally posted by: boomerang

I have also emailed all the major router companies with the specific question of which models are 64-bit compatible.

An update;
Linksys just answered back with apologies that they have no wireless routers that support 64-bit Vista at this time.

The OS has nothing to do at all with a router. There is no such thing as a router that supports a particular OS. They are not related in any way.

Well I paraphrased a short reply from Linksys.

Here is my question for them;
Hello,

Could you tell me if you have a wireless router that will work with Vista 64-bit. My understanding is that a lot of the manufacturers have routers that are "Vista compatible" but that are not compatible with the 64-bit version of Vista. I've been trying to get one of your competitor?s products working consistently and am not having any luck.

Thank You,

And their reply;

No 64-bit at this time.Sorry

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: blahsome
What I'm still not clear is that what exact difficulties you were having with Vista.

The problem was (is) that I cannot reliably get an IP address with two different computers running Vista 64-bit. A Vista 32-bit box gets one every time. This, with them all connected to the same router.

So far, I am having a 100% success rate using a registry edit documented in the KB article I linked to in an earlier post. But it's only been a short time.

Here is a copy and paste;
If the router or the non-Microsoft DHCP server does not support the DHCP BROADCAST flag, you can set the following registry entry as follows:
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Tcpip\Parameters\Interfaces\{GUID}

Value name: DhcpConnForceBroadcastFlag
Value type: REG_DWORD
Value data: 0
Note A data value of 0 disables this registry entry. You can use this registry entry to prevent Windows Vista from using the DHCP BROADCAST flag. After you set this registry entry, Windows Vista never uses the DHCP BROADCAST flag.

 

[boomerang]

Replied instead of editing.

 

[spidey07]

That's a problem with vista then, and not a router. Microsoft isn't following internet standards, as usual.

I read the RFC for DHCP, it is NOT supposed to set that flag.

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: spidey07
That's a problem with vista then, and not a router. Microsoft isn't following internet standards, as usual.

I read the RFC for DHCP, it is NOT supposed to set that flag.

Yes, but I had no idea what the problem was, or where to start. As I said earlier, I'm not the sharpest or brightest in regards to networking. I'm a Die Maker.

Do you feel that this registry edit will give consistent results? This all started because I built a Vista box for a good friend and co-worker, set him up with a Linksys wireless router (so his wife can connect with her laptop) and several days later, he can no longer connect.

I feel obligated to correct the situation and have gone down a long path trying to find the fix. I want to make this right.

 

[spidey07]

The edit should work fine. The fact that you can turn it off and it works means that vista isn't supposed to be setting that flag anyway.

For giggles here's how much MS dropped the ball on this one, completely ignoring internet standards AGAIN.

RFC2131 refers to RFC1542 for clarification on use of broadcast flag. From RFC1542, year 1993. Microsoft is ignoring a standard that is over 15 years old.

3.1.1 The BROADCAST flag

Normally, BOOTP servers and relay agents attempt to deliver BOOTREPLY messages directly to a client using unicast delivery. The IP destination address (in the IP header) is set to the BOOTP 'yiaddr' address and the link-layer destination address is set to the BOOTP 'chaddr' address. Unfortunately, some client implementations are unable to receive such unicast IP datagrams until they know their own IP address (thus we have a "chicken and egg" issue). Often, however, they can receive broadcast IP datagrams (those with a valid IP broadcast address as the IP destination and the link-layer broadcast address as the link-layer destination).

If a client falls into this category, it SHOULD set (to 1) the newly-defined BROADCAST flag in the 'flags' field of BOOTREPLY messages it generates. This will provide a hint to BOOTP servers and relay agents that they should attempt to broadcast their BOOTREPLY messages to the client.

If a client does not have this limitation (i.e., it is perfectly able to receive unicast BOOTREPLY messages), it SHOULD NOT set the BROADCAST flag (i.e., it SHOULD clear the BROADCAST flag to 0).

DISCUSSION:

This addition to the protocol is a workaround for old host implementations. Such implementations SHOULD be modified so that they may receive unicast BOOTREPLY messages, thus making use of this workaround unnecessary. In general, the use of this mechanism is discouraged.