Repairs

[snoopy7548]

Are you still running it without oil?

 

[Craig234]

Are you still running it without oil?

I hope not - remember I found out getting an oil change. It hadn't been leaking a lot since then. I'm trying to get the manifold leaks fixed the but repair guy didn't show up today...

 

[mindless1]

Unless it was already mentioned, I feel like we are getting an insufficient amount of info in little bits and pieces.

Why was it low on oil? Was it a perpetual oil burner and you hadn't checked it, or it was way past the oil change interval? Is it possible the engine was already shot and that, not the current repair costs, makes it an unsuitable investment to repair?

It could be that you have a head gasket problem (causing oil burning) not intake manifold, or both. At the very least I would get a compression test done to see if it's still within an acceptable range.

You mentioned it hadn't been leaking so the big question is where did the oil go? A quart between oil changes, even two on an old engine is sometimes considered acceptable but a complete loss not so much.

 

[Craig234]

Unless it was already mentioned, I feel like we are getting an insufficient amount of info in little bits and pieces.

Why was it low on oil? Was it a perpetual oil burner and you hadn't checked it, or it was way past the oil change interval? Is it possible the engine was already shot and that, not the current repair costs, makes it an unsuitable investment to repair?

It could be that you have a head gasket problem (causing oil burning) not intake manifold, or both. At the very least I would get a compression test done to see if it's still within an acceptable range.

You mentioned it hadn't been leaking so the big question is where did the oil go? A quart between oil changes, even two on an old engine is sometimes considered acceptable but a complete loss not so much.

I think I last had the oil changed about a year ago (but again, it's driven very little). I don't know how long it was out of oil, and the shop said they didn't know why it was. When I say it wasn't leaking, I'm only referring to the last week hearing that it's not leaking a lot. I'm assuming the leak was the manifold leaking. I've indicated I can only say the engine seems to work ok.

 

[Craig234]

Now I'm wondering if the repair guy was a scam.

His original estimate was:

Crank sensor - $25
Ignition module - $150
Intake gasket set - $70
Labor - $155

As I noted above, he said he found an additional leak in the Manifold and would need to replace the top part. He agreed to buy the part Saturday and finish the work this morning; he asked for $300 for the crank sensor and ignition module he said he completed Friday night and would get another $150 today for the manifold. He didn't show up and is not returning e-mail or phone calls.

 

[mindless1]

On "most" engines, an intake manifold leak will not cause oil loss. Did you check the oil level after the oil was changed? I'm wondering if they forgot to refill it, and in an odd bad/good luck sort of way, you were fortunate that they hadn't let 100% of the oil drain out so you still had a tiny bit of protection.

I don't know what to make of the repair guy. So far you paid him only for the work he has already completed? Hard to say, maybe something came up, broke his phone and is at severe handicap due to it, family member ill, went on a heroin bender, got killed by a shark, kidnapped by aliens, etc. 😉 Maybe he was offered a high profit repair and put yours on the back burner to get that job.

I'd just wait it out as long as you can, trying not to alienate the guy since he's doing the repairs pretty cheap. Then again I'd pick someone else next time if this drags out too long.

 

[Craig234]

On "most" engines, an intake manifold leak will not cause oil loss. Did you check the oil level after the oil was changed? I'm wondering if they forgot to refill it, and in an odd bad/good luck sort of way, you were fortunate that they hadn't let 100% of the oil drain out so you still had a tiny bit of protection.

I don't know what to make of the repair guy. So far you paid him only for the work he has already completed? Hard to say, maybe something came up, broke his phone and is at severe handicap due to it, family member ill, went on a heroin bender, got killed by a shark, kidnapped by aliens, etc. 😉 Maybe he was offered a high profit repair and put yours on the back burner to get that job.

I'd just wait it out as long as you can, trying not to alienate the guy since he's doing the repairs pretty cheap. Then again I'd pick someone else next time if this drags out too long.

Ya, I just don't see an excuse to most of those for not at least letting me know he wouldn't show up 6 hours later or returning messages.

I had a bad feeling even though he seemed nice and honest Friday night. Once I had yardwork done by someone who seemed nice and honest, and asked to come back the next day to haul away the several big Hefty bags of debris. So I trusted him and paid him and said ok. He never returned and refused to answer messages.

Trying to figure out what this guy's scam might have been, I have to guess the first 2 repairs were more profitable for him and he just didn't want to do the manifold and lied about committing to it.

Of course that's assuming that even the first repairs were 'legit'. That's why I listed them to see if anyone thought the prices looked out of whack. He ended up getting $125 out of the planned $155 for labor for just the first two items - if he did them ok. I want to allow for an unlikely emergency for him, but at some point I'll want to do things like post a 'scam alert' on Craigslist about him.

 

[mindless1]

The prices for the crank sensor and ignition module seem about right. so $125 labor to put them on is still $100, maybe even $300 less in total than a dealership would charge (probably a high markup on an OEM ignition module). I'm not justifying him brushing you off but you did get a fair value out of the money paid despite it not being all you bargained for.

Really it seemed Too Good To Be True, that he would do all the work for $155 total labor. I'd want at least that to do an upper intake manifold gasket job, and yet I'd still advise the person to spend more and do the lower intake gasket while it's taken apart that far and that means another $60 in parts but some of them are things that *should* be replaced anyway like injector O-rings from pulling the fuel rail off, throttle body gasket from taking that off. Here's the LIM gasket kit I used on a GM 3800. The upper IM gasket and other prudent replacement widgets came with the replacement upper plastic manifold.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LWL3XI

Heh, did you ever tell us what vehicle yours is?

 

[Craig234]

The prices for the crank sensor and ignition module seem about right. so $125 labor to put them on is still $100, maybe even $300 less in total than a dealership would charge (probably a high markup on an OEM ignition module). I'm not justifying him brushing you off but you did get a fair value out of the money paid despite it not being all you bargained for.

Really it seemed Too Good To Be True, that he would do all the work for $155 total labor. I'd want at least that to do an upper intake manifold gasket job, and yet I'd still advise the person to spend more and do the lower intake gasket while it's taken apart that far and that means another $60 in parts but some of them are things that *should* be replaced anyway like injector O-rings from pulling the fuel rail off, throttle body gasket from taking that off. Here's the LIM gasket kit I used on a GM 3800. The upper IM gasket and other prudent replacement widgets came with the replacement upper plastic manifold.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LWL3XI

Heh, did you ever tell us what vehicle yours is?

Ya, that's kind of what I'm wondering - did he lowball the manifold labor, and then devide to just not do it, to get the other repairs paid for? Leaves me with a problem that I only took his package offer, and since he's not doing it, I've already paid $300 and am looking at spending more for the rest to not have the $300 just be a loss. No, I don't think the specifics have been needed.

 

[mindless1]

I wouldn't call it a loss, just that you still need the rest done. Running it's probably worth $1000, but not running it's worth little more than $300 at a junkyard unless very low mileage, so even if you decide to sell it you should have a few hundred dollars worth of repair budget that you'd get back in increased resale value. You might be able to drive it another year for *free* and it won't have depreciated much more by then unless you're running low on rubber (tires).

There must be someone else who would do it for a reasonable labor charge. Again you didn't mention the vehicle but most larger american sedan engines are relatively easy to work on. It is a repair that can usually be done in an afternoon, with no surprises like needing to buy a special tool(s), although with plastic intake manifolds you have to be careful not to over-torque them. Some will say you "need" a torque wrench, but all you really need is some common sense not to over-tighten it, and then ideally to come back later after a few hundred miles and check that they don't need torqued a *little* more once the gasket has settled some.

 

[Craig234]

I wouldn't call it a loss, just that you still need the rest done. There must be someone else who would do it for a reasonable labor charge. Again you didn't mention the vehicle but most larger american sedan engines are relatively easy to work on. It is a repair that can usually be done in an afternoon, with no surprises like needing to buy a special tool(s), although with plastic intake manifolds you have to be careful not to over-torque them. Some will say you "need" a torque wrench, but all you really need is some common sense not to over-tighten it, and then ideally to come back later after a few hundred miles and check that they don't need torqued a *little* more once the gasket has settled some.

Well, the independent shop estimate for the work without the larger manifold repair was a little over $1000, so this is driving the price higher than I'd planned for this car - what I meant by wasted, is if I didn't finish the repairs. I haven't got any more estimates yet. I'll call another local shop - that previously refused the job unless the warning light was on - to see what they'd charge.

 

[mindless1]

What evidence is there of a manifold leak? If you're not losing coolant and the check engine light isn't on (due to running too lean) nor the engine running rough, I'd want to see physical evidence it was falling apart and get more detail from the person who made the diagnosis.

Normally you observe a symptom and drill down to a fault rather than assume a diagnosis is correct without a symptom.

 

[Craig234]

What evidence is there of a manifold leak? If you're not losing coolant and the check engine light isn't on (due to running too lean) nor the engine running rough, I'd want to see physical evidence it was falling apart and get more detail from the person who made the diagnosis.

Normally you observe a symptom and drill down to a fault rather than assume a diagnosis is correct without a symptom.

The evidence is the first repair shop saying 'the manifold intake is leaking all over the other parts', suggesting that the other repairs are at risk if that isn't fixed also; and the latest repair person saying 'he squeezed the hose and saw a second lead that requires replacing the whole top plastic part of the manifold'.

 

[Craig234]

Well, the second repair guy had indicated what repair shop he worked at, so I just called him. He said he had been unable to get the part, but had ordered it and would do the work Wednesday. I heard someone say 'no personal calls' when they gave him the phone. I said it'd help for him to communicate since I'd been waiting, he agreed.

Then he said, I have his cell number, right, because his boss doesn't like him getting calls at the shop. I said, yes, I sent an e-mail and left 4 messages on his cell phone yesterday and didn't hear back, so I called there to reach him. He said yes, and again that his cell number can be used. I repeated I'd left 4 messages and didn't hear back, right? Right. So we'll see.

 

[mindless1]

The evidence is the first repair shop saying 'the manifold intake is leaking all over the other parts', suggesting that the other repairs are at risk if that isn't fixed also; and the latest repair person saying 'he squeezed the hose and saw a second lead that requires replacing the whole top plastic part of the manifold'.

That is unusual language to describe a bad manifold or manifold gasket. All the upper manifold is, is essentially an upside down plastic tub that air flows through from the intake snorkel (air filter to tube with airflow meter to throttle body) to the cylinder ports.

Besides the possibility of a coolant passage up through the throttle body, which if leaking would cause low coolant and excessive white "smoke" (steam) out the exhaust pipe, the only other thing it should be leaking is air, into the engine which is a problem because it's unmetered air so it causes a lean running condition.

What could it be leaking all over the other parts? It's a very dubious diagnosis. What other repairs are at risk, exactly how are they at risk? If the intake manifold were to fall apart or leak (worse than it is, IF it's leaking at all), one of two things would happen. Either it would start leaking coolant, either out the side or more likely down into the engine because of vacuum, producing white tailpipe smoke or possibly hydrolocking the engine (which IS a big deal, can ruin an engine if it suddenly puts a lot of coolant down in and the engine is at load, otherwise a slow leak with it at idle will typically only stall the engine), and you'd start getting misfires and notice your coolant disappearing.

- OR - if it starts leaking air you might have a poor idle, loss of power, engine misfires, and the only thing that happens if it's not fixed is the car doesn't run well if at all until it's fixed.

As far as "squeezed the hose and saw a second lead (leak?) that requires replacing the whole top plastic part of the manifold" this is also a strange statement. I've asked more than once what make/model/engine you have but in general there is only one (pair of) hoses on the intake manifold but on the LOWER not upper plastic, going to and from the heater core. Yours may not be set up like this, heater core does not have to attach there but does not attach to a plastic upper intake manifold (I suppose very bad engineering could do that, but there is no reason to).

Could he have meant he squeezed the upper radiator hose and coolant came out of the thermostat housing, not the upper intake manifold, or is this some strange design where the upper intake manifold and thermostat housing are molded into the same piece (which also would be a strange/bad design)?

Either the person making the diagnosis has very bad communication skills and doesn't know what engine parts are called (okay to be fair I made up the term snorkel above, it's not an official term 😉 ) or it's a made up diagnosis of the type shops use to milk people out of money for unnecessary repairs. These types of diagnosis-scams often don't make sense.

Is the vehicle not running properly now and if not, what are the symptoms? If it is not running lean/rough and you aren't losing coolant, it is very unlikely that you have an intake manifold leak. If the side of the plastic manifold, near the EGR looked charred and brittle/crumbly from heat, that would be a reason to expect a failure soon, but not a leak w/o other symptoms and that's not at all what you're stating.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

I'll note that on the 3800, the manifold is "wet" (it carries coolant) and the lower portion (lower intake manifold gaskets) have chambers next to the coolant chambers that drain oil back to the crankcase.

I had one of the luckiest manifold gasket failures on my 3800 because the LIM failed on the outside near the rear oil return chamber. What this created was a slow oil leak on the outside of the Engine. I didn't notice it at first because the oil would drip onto the Engine Shield at the bottom of the car, and pool there. My indicator that something was wrong was when the Low Oil Light came on my car. I was a night shifter at the time, and checked around. That's where I found the small pool of oil in the shield. Fortunately, the car was down enough to trip the light just barely, and by morning the light was off, and the oil level was still within acceptable range. I drove it to the mechanic who took care of the rest.

I only mention it because the combination resulted in just oil loss, with no coolant mixing in. Probably the best failure to have because I didn't have to be concerned with the damage done by coolant getting in the oil.

The point was to only note that at least in my case, it's possible for the Intake Manifold Gaskets to fail without losing coolant.

 

[mindless1]

^ Agreed but the puzzling part is the mechanic wants to replace the upper manifold plastic, and that squeezing a hose and seeing a leak bit... something doesn't add up.

 

[Craig234]

Unfortunately I don't know jack about cars to help clear this up. The guy on the second problem did say it was coolant that was leaking for the second leak; the first one was oil, I think they said.

It was just a sort of big rubber tube going to the manifold he squeezed and said he saw the coolant leak.

The symptom side of this remains - about every 2 weeks the car not starting and needing dozens of tries over 15 or 20 minutes to start; two times it has shut off while driving down the road (once about 35 mph going straight, the other about 10-15mph slowing for a turn). A couple times it has sounded like it might want to shut off but didn't while driving.

And then there's the oil change saying 'not even a drop came out' when they tried to drain the oil. I don't have a check engine light on and it drives ok otherwise. When the first shop 'diagnosed' but didn't charge, it makes me wonder if they really confirmed it.

 

[Craig234]

^ Agreed but the puzzling part is the mechanic wants to replace the upper manifold plastic, and that squeezing a hose and seeing a leak bit... something doesn't add up.

Ya, I think he had bought manifold gaskets (estimated cost $70) based on the first shop saying 'manifold intake leak'. Then when he squeezed the tube and said the top needs to be replaced, he went online to ebay I think and found replacements for about $250 then somewhere else that had them for $82, and said they'd include the gaskets so he'd return the ones he'd bought.

Then today he said they didn't have them over the weekend and he backordered to get them tomorrow.

His day off at his shop is Wednesday when he said he'll come do the repair.

 

[mindless1]

^ While I don't like the shotgun approach of just replacing parts till something is fixed, in this case, based on a best guess, I would first do a leak down or cylinder compression test to see if compression is good, and examine each spark plug while it's out.

If those tests look good then I would hope there is no head problem (leaking gasket, head warpage, or crack) and proceed to tear down to the lower intake gasket looking for evidence of where the leak was. There should be visual evidence of a perpetual leak. I would then replace the lower intake manifold gasket and all the various gaskets and o-rings that come in a LIM gasket kit. Upper plastic, I would examine it for warpage, cracks and brittleness and check whether the upper gasket can be ordered separately or only comes with the upper plastic shell.

Doing all that should (can) cost less than $1000 including parts. Being conservative, someone who has done it before on that engine should be able to do it in less than 5 hours, maybe as little as 2. If you can get someone independent to do it instead of paying shop labor then it could easily cut the labor rate in half.

 

[thecoolnessrune]

Well I for one am good in this thread until I hear car information. It's been asked from the OP several times and he has yet to provide it. If he wants to keep taking guesses at it at this point, it's his prerogative, but enough is enough in that aspect. It's gone unanswered long enough that it's being intentionally avoided for whatever reason.

 

[Craig234]

I sent the repair guy the suggestion above, and he replied agreeing but added a lot to labor.

Does his response look reasonable? (From $150 parts/labor for the top to $300 labor + parts). Spending more than I had wanted on this car, keeps creeping up.

Yeah , I think that would be best so we know everything that would cause problems, for a compression test, cylinder leak down , plugs $120 labor,
Then if everything is good, I can replace all gaskets for the lower and upper intake $180 labor , I need to check on price of parts

 

[mindless1]

It is sufficiently vague and the topic has taken so many turns that I can't make heads or tails of it.

It needs to be a concise description of work vs cost. I suppose it all boils down to where you're going to place your bet and how long to hold or gamble. Your guy might be legit and a great mechanic, but not so good on communication skills. 😉

 

[Craig234]

I've already spent $300 for the crank sensor and ignition module. For the manifold leak(s), I sent him your note:

" I would first do a leak down or cylinder compression test to see if compression is good, and examine each spark plug while it's out.

If those tests look good then I would hope there is no head problem (leaking gasket, head warpage, or crack) and proceed to tear down to the lower intake gasket looking for evidence of where the leak was. There should be visual evidence of a perpetual leak. I would then replace the lower intake manifold gasket and all the various gaskets and o-rings that come in a LIM gasket kit. Upper plastic, I would examine it for warpage, cracks and brittleness and check whether the upper gasket can be ordered separately or only comes with the upper plastic shell."

That's what he responded to saying it would be $120 labor to test, and then 'if everything is good' he'd replace all gaskets lower and upper (what happened to replacing upper?) for $180 MORE labor+parts.

The plan we had before I sent him your mail was that he'd replace the upper part of the manifold+gaskets for $70 labor and about $80 in parts. Should I just go back to that?

 

[Craig234]

He's supposed to be coming over tonight and buying the parts today, if anyone has a suggestion how I should instruct him between the $150 total and the $300+parts options.