renetworking school - need suggestions

[Schoolies]

OK, my brother and I have been given the task of renetworking my old elementary school. Right now, the school has the same ancient Macs that I used to use. So we're ripping out all of the macs and throwing them in the trash (not literally) and replacing them with donated PIs and PIIs. My question is, what kind of equipment am I going to need to get this job done?

Here is a little description of the place:
There are 3 main buildings, seperated by no more than 100 - 200 feet. The server room, which we are building right now is centrally located between the 2 other buildings. The buildings are positioned in a line, Building A, Server Building, Building B. Building A will have at the most 25 computers. The Server building will have about 100, and Building B will have about 40. In the server building, there is a computer lab which contains about 50 of the total computers.

We will be using a fiber backbone to each building and then cat5 or 6 throughout the buildings into each room. Our budget was described to us as "enough to get the job done".

M question:
If you were doing this, what routers, switches, hubs would you get, and where would you place them. Also, what kind of internet connection would you get. Keep in mind our budget which is to buy enough to get it to work.

I appreciate any suggestions you all can offer.
(BTW, we're getting paid scraps for this.... it is really kind of donation of labor from us)

 

[Synoptic]

Being a CCNA, I naturally would recommend Cisco. I have set up Cisco switches and routers in many many schools and it works great. Cisco also offers educational discounts and such so that may be a plus. I would use a 4000 series (6500 if you can afford it) in the Server building. These offer the option of putting in different blades for different purposes so you can support a lot of computers out of one switch as well as feed out to the other switches. For the other 2 buildings use Cisco 3548 switches. I can't remember the exact model numbers since it has been about a year since I have done any of this, but it should at least give you a start. The 3500's support a feature known as gigastacking, where you can hang one switch off another using copper wire at gig speeds. This may be something y'all want, maybe not, but it is an option. That should do it for the switches. I'm not to familiar with Cisco's router models right now, so someone else will have to go over that with you.

 

[Nutz]

What protocols will be used? What kind of financial restrictions are there? Where will the admins be located? What kind of net managment software will be used?

I assume this will be all 10/100. You can probably get away with being 100% switched from building to building making the server building your core. If going flat isn't an option then put up a routed link between the server building and building B (which I recommend).


I'll try to update this later when I get home. In the meantime try and post a network diagram for us.

 

[Synoptic]

Going flat shouldn't be a problem with only 225 nodes. I think the standards say you can go up to like 500 nodes on a flat network. There is always the option of a layer 3 blade in the core and having a different vlan for each building and one for the NOC. the 3500's support trunking so it would be pretty easy to configure.

 

[Schoolies]

Thanks for the suggestions... i'm trying to install visio now.

 

[Synoptic]

When you get the visios done I'd love to take a look at them if you don't mind. Or if you need any help making them I may be able to lend a hand.

 

[Schoolies]

I made a drawing... is this good enough? Sorry, there's not much else to say or draw. It's a normal school with 2 floors, classrooms on each side. Computers will be goign in each room.



Thanks Drawing

 

[spidey07]

225 nodes is probably pushing it for a single subnet, especially if you have macs or slow computers. You might be better of by having a server VLAN and a user or two vlans. Then you could elminate any need for trunking.

Considering this is for a school you may be able to get by with a bunch of 24 port hubs with fiber connections and a central switch or two. Better yet, have four switches (one for core/server, one in each building, hubs star-out from switches). without cabling you're only looking at a few thousand dollars. Don't expect to much in terms of performance though as it would be 10 megabit shared on each hub. That would provide a pretty decent net for cheap.

On the other end you can do all 10/100 switched (might not even need it with p1 and p2s) everywhere with 1000base links between buildings and a server or two on gig.

hope this helps.

 

[Nutz]

Originally posted by: Synoptic
Going flat shouldn't be a problem with only 225 nodes. I think the standards say you can go up to like 500 nodes on a flat network. There is always the option of a layer 3 blade in the core and having a different vlan for each building and one for the NOC. the 3500's support trunking so it would be pretty easy to configure.

If you want to trunk your VLANs you'll still need to have routing. Be carefull which router you choose as not all are created equal. I know of a guy on Ars who picked up a 2611 only to get burned (however, a 2621 would have been what he was looking for).

At the maximum you can have 500 nodes using TCP/IP, and only 200 max in a mixed protocol enviroment. If you add in mixed-media bridging/switching or varying topologies, those numbers can fluctuate widely. Stick with VLANs between the buildings with a L3 blade in the core should suffice. Not to step on Spidey's toes, but I'd suggest you stay away from building hubs into your network. You'll only regret it in the future. If you're really hurting for cash, pick up some Catalyst 1900's. It'd only be 10BaseT to the users, but a switched subnet is always better than only one collision domain.

 

[Schoolies]

Nutz, we'll be running 10/100 over TCP/IP, our financial restrictions were never really given to us except that we needed to get everything to work, the admins will be located in the server room, we will be running 2000 Server or NT.

Spidey, yea, having the 4 switches with hubs is something we have been thinking about, we were wondering about performance issues. I would hate to have the network crash because too many students trying to access the network at the same time.

BTW, all of the macs will eventually be gone.

We are not the most knowledgeable people when dealing with networks but this is our task and we're going to get it done, somehow.

Thanks

 

[Pheran]

I'm a little confused, in the first post you indicate that building B will have 100 computers, but the diagram only shows 40 max.

 

[Schoolies]

I apologize for that, I guess it was wishfull thinking at 3:00am.

My last post is correct, I corrected my first one. thanks

 

[spidey07]

Not to step on Spidey's toes, but I'd suggest you stay away from building hubs into your network. You'll only regret it in the future

Nutz brings up a good point. My suggestion on the 24 port hubs was going for "ultra cheap" network. But he's right, it WILL cause performance problems. I made the #1 error in network design and only thought about today, and not designing a network for three years.

I guess the next big question is what do you need the network to do? web browsing and some basic file/print sharing? Or are there some really intensive apps in the server area that need boco bandwidth to the clients?

A switched network really is the best option. Now the question remains what kind of switched network.

For me, given cost constraints, I'd do a cisco 4006 with the new supervisor and true layer3 switching at the core. This will give you high performance routing and high density 10/100/1000 ports at a reasonable cost. Next somes the buildings...if distance allows I'd still do a cisco 4000 based chassis solution for each building, otherwise get some cisco 3548 switches for access in each floor. Each bulding a single vlan, server vlan all by itself, maybe a backup VLAN depending on what your backup window is. NO TRUNKING, trunking bad.

I'm guessing maybe 25K for the gear, with educational discounts or buying from worldcom much less.

 

[Synoptic]

Spidey man, why are you so against trunking? I have set up a lot of schools, elementary, middle, and high schools, and trunked each and every one of them with no problem. It may be beyond the scope of this project, but it wouldn't hurt anything. If I am correct, Schoolies, this is a pretty simple design for elementary kids who will be getting on the internet and learning about PC's, maybe email for teachers, and a few other little things. Depending on the physical size of the buildings and with the low number of computers, go with one closet per building with a 3548 int it. Since the lab is in the same building as the NOC go ahead and put the lab switches in the lab, and feed the classrooms out of the 4000 or 6500. I know you are supposed to have a closet per floor, but it just isn't practical in this case. SPidey was right about the 4006 in the core, or you can always go with a 6505 (I think that is the model, don't actually know anyone who has used one, by the time everyone I know buys a 6500 series it is a 6509), anyway, the 6500 has a faster backplane, and the 6509 has 3 more slots than the 4006. Are you cabling the school yourself also?

 

[Schoolies]

Thanks guys... it will be basic file/print sharing, email, web browsing... nothing special.

The network cable is already run, but we might be pulling that... not sure at this point. If i were unable to afford the Cisco switches, what would be the next best switch?

 

[ScottMac]

Check into Foundry. They have a good range of very capable switches, it's good solid equipment, it programs (almost) exactly like Cisco (so you get a little "Cisco" time under your belt), and very competitively priced ...probably even more so with an educational discount.

3COM would probably work for you too, and they're hungry ... meaning they're probably ripe for a deal too.

At the low end, maybe look at Allied Telesyn, Netgear, (Compaq?, IBM?).....

All would offer enough options to allow you to tailor the network somewhat, though there may be some compromises (nuthin' serious though).

The basic design of an appropriately-sized group of switches in each building for access/distribution, with a/some concentrator switches in the core is a pretty solid, tried & true design.

Personally, I favor doing anything reasonable to keep the servers as local as possible to the end-user, meaning, I'd shoot for some flavor of VLAN (trunked or physical) going to multiple NICs (physical or logical) in the servers. It eliminates a router hop, reduces your singles-point-of-failure (without expanding the budget for redundancy beyond absolute necessity), and removes a lot of the load from the central router/L3 switch (probably gonna have a router for Internet access anyway). Some of the VLAN options will depend on how much fiber you have between the buildings.

Also, IMHO, you ABSOLUTELY DO NOT(!), DO NOT(!), DO NOT(!!!!!!) want to get involved in cabling this place to ANY extent. I don't care if your Aunt Matilda owns the joint ... cabling in a network critical environment should be done by pros. Someone that is INSURED and BONDED in case something goes wrong. Someone with pockets deep enough to handle ANY possible liabillity. It's worth the money. If the cabling is not right, how are you going to know if it's the cable or the networking components? It's in a school building; that means PERMITS and INSPECTIONS (or huge fines if caught, school or not). Get a few quotes from the local data-cabling contractors, chances are they'll give you a break as well.

FWIW

Scott

 

[Synoptic]

I know with 3Com equipment, on special occasions, cisco will let you use it as trade in gear, in case you can't afford the cisco right now but would want it in the future. Also, what area are you located in, one of us may know a reseller to help you get your equipment.

 

[amdskip]

This is all over my head but if you need any network cables, send me a message. I can also get spools too.

 

[Schoolies]

Scott, thanks for the alternatives for the switches, I will definitely look into them. I am going to look more into the whole cabling issue, the school may have their own solution. thanks for the tip.

I never knew Cisco would let you do such a thing, Synoptic. That would be great. The location is New Orleans, Louisiana.

You've got PM, amdskip.

 

[Diaonic]

Schoolies, i work for a school disrict we have 11 buildings an 4 technicains to maintain it all. Some of my experiances an stuff that you might want to consider while building this network is.

Network printing? i would recommend hp 2200 or up i have 8 of them in my school they have been flawless. Stand alone printers are out of the question.

Content Filtering i know if i dont have a content filter up i can't get erate money an thats how i keep my T1 line in. I use a sonic wall pro 200 works great.

location for the network printers, make it easy to access but not in a place where if students get there work they will interupt anyone.

Are you going to have centraliazed servers where the students / teachers save there data ? i see 2 problems with this. 1 people like to bring stuff home to work on it. 2 your going to have to keep updating user profiles every year if you do this.

If i think of more il post it.

 

[Synoptic]

you're right about the network printers, but you can always use a local printer and share it on the network. That allows teachers to have their own printer, but still available for others to use, and cuts down on some of the cost. I doubt elementary students save much data, and teachers can save directly to the C drive of their machine. A centralized server isn't a bad idea at all, and if you have the knowledge to set that up then use it instead, but if not, I would stay away from it right now.

 

[Schoolies]

Thanks Dianoc, once everything has settle down over here, we will get those print servers. For now we will just share them from the teacher's workstations. Also, the Archidiocese supposedly has an internet filter but if they don't I'll remember your suggestion.

We will have a centralized server for file sharing. I think it would be a good idea to not allow the students and teachers from saving things directly to their computer? All we really want them to be able to do is run the program that WE install, surf the net, and email. If we do this, I'm figuring there will be less computer problems.

I really appreciate all the tips, we definitely need them.

 

[reicherb]

We will have a centralized server for file sharing. I think it would be a good idea to not allow the students and teachers from saving things directly to their computer? All we really want them to be able to do is run the program that WE install, surf the net, and email. If we do this, I'm figuring there will be less computer problems.

You might look into NetWare and ZENWorks to lock down workstations, and to push out the apps that you want to be run. ZEN will also work on NT if you are dead set on MS.

 

[Garion]

Send me a PM with your real e-mail address. I've got a document that I did for something very similar a few years ago. The infrastructure piece is out of date now (Nortel L3 switch going to hubs) but some of the other concepts might be useful.

Who is going to be running this network? Someone competent/trained or whomever they can find? If it's not going to be anyone with experience, I'd recommend keeping it REALLY simple. Get some cheap 3Com/Dell/Netgear switches (They have some good stuff at reasonable prices) with gigabit uplinks and connect 'em all together at the hub. Instead of using a Layer 3 (routing) switch, I'd use a supernet - The mask 255.255.252.0 gives you 1,000 IP's on the same subnet. You'll be a bit broadcast-heavy. At 10BaseT it could be a tiny issue, but at 100BaseT, you'll be fine. It'll be WAY easier to administer and troubleshoot than a layer 3 routed network with multiple subnets. Pros will cringe when I say this and a few will disagree with me, but everyone who has troubleshooted a misbehaving L3 network will understand.

- G

 

[Nutz]

At 10BaseT it could be a tiny issue, but at 100BaseT, you'll be fine. It'll be WAY easier to administer and troubleshoot than a layer 3 routed network with multiple subnets. Pros will cringe when I say this and a few will disagree with me, but everyone who has troubleshooted a misbehaving L3 network will understand.

As much as I hate to say it, you've got a really good point with not routing their network. It'll be much easier for them to manage and troubleshoot until they get more familiar with routing and some of the higher level stuff we'd expect to see in enterprise level networks.

G, would you mind sending the design document to me too? Thanks.