Removing stock HSF, replacing with better HSF

Cabages

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
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Im going to remove my stock heatsink from my X2 3800+ and replace it with an AC Freezer 64 pro.

Thing is, the 64 pro is currently in another system I use with a FX-55. Im just looking to switch them around, and wanted to double check the steps. I intend on cleaning and reapplying thermal paste (1 gram tube of shin etsu).

Im also wondering on how to clean it. I heard isopropyl alcohol is fine, though I cant remember what percentage it needed to be. Also, do I just put some of that on a q-tip or something?

So the steps I was thinking were:

1. Remove HSF

2. Clean HSF

3. Reapply paste on CPU (just a dot right, not much?)

4. Put new HSF on

As you can tell, im not to sure on how much paste to put on either. Ive heard its less than you think, but other than that, no idea. I do know I have this shin etsu here

So, can you help a noob out? I was going to start overclocking, and wanted the best HSF on there I had. Thanks!
 

PCTC2

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2007
3,892
33
91
For Isopropyl, >90% is preferred, which can be picked up at any local pharmacy like CVS, Rite-Aid, etc. Use a lint-free cloth (coffee filters work, or those synthetic gauze pads.) to clean the CPU AND HEATSINK.

For paste, it really varies. Look at the manufacturer's website. Look up in "Cases and Cooling" for thermal paste application. Probably the "Dollop Method".
 

Cabages

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
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Thanks for the reply.

I have some coffee filters. I would just pour a little alcohol on a section of the filter and gently rub the CPU and the heatsink?

And I want a greater than 90% solution for the alcohol correct?
 

imported_wired247

Golden Member
Jan 18, 2008
1,184
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you should check for example arctic silver's website, they have different instructions if you have single core/dual core/quad core. it is because you can't "see" the cores without removing the integrated heat spreader. In essence as long as you have thermal interface material directly over the cores, you're good.

however, in my most recent build, I used a razorblade to thinly spread arctic silver over the entire IHS, not so much that it would ooze, just a very small amount. I believe this way to be safe, if you do not overapply.

I could never get the hang of the dollop method, because it is hard to judge how much it will spread out, and it's hard to tell whether you over/underapplied without removing the HSF.

The downside to the "razorblade" method is that you may end up wasting some material. I know I did, because you first overapply then as you spread it out, a lot just sticks to the blade.

Since I have had this AS5 for years and it's not very expensive, I didn't feel like it was a big deal. But the dollop method would be the most frugal, if you don't over/underapply.
 

SanDiegoPC

Senior member
Jul 14, 2006
460
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Originally posted by: Number2
I think I've read that Isopropyl at 70% is ok... is it?

The higher the percentage, the better. It's only a buck a bottle,so get the 99% stuff.
 

Mondoman

Senior member
Jan 4, 2008
356
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"Anhydrous" (without water) is best, and it's only around $1/bottle. The less water, the better just because it'll dry faster.
When you clean the CPU/hs, first just scrape off the bulk of the old compound with something like an index file card or old credit card; then, use the isopropyl alcohol/coffee filter to finish the job.

cab - don't forget to check if your x2 3800+ stock hs can handle the FX55, heatwise.
 

BonzaiDuck

Lifer
Jun 30, 2004
16,780
2,114
126
Too many unresolved issues with friends on this topic, and myths abound. So I throw in my two-cents worth.

1) Freezer pro 64 may be "ok," but unless you're just making an accommodation to surplus coolers on your AMD system, why not get a cooler that has the lowest thermal resistance? For "thermal Resistance," get a "TR" -- even the Ultima 90.

2) Take time to lap the processor down to bare copper. It won't matter if there's a couple slight patches of nickel left on it.

3) The advice about the isopropanol is sound. You can get anhydrous at an electronics store -- a bit pricey -- maybe $6 or $7 for a small bottle. You may be able to find 90% even at a drug store, but you can certainly find 70% at a drug store or Costco.

4) Don't waste your m**********n' time worrrying about "scratches!" Don't waste your time using 2000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. And don't waste your time and money using "Brasso." Start with (fresh) 320-grit to grind off 3/4 of the nickel-plate, then finish with (fresh) 400-grit. To make a smooth, satin-finish leaving mostly slight swirls, continue to sand with the used, "subdued" area of the 400-grit.

5) Buy IC diamond paste or mix your own with industrial micronized diamond and silicone thermal paste. $5 for the IC diamond is worth it. Assume stock thermal wattage (peak) of the processor is 95W: you will get a 2 to 4C improvement in temperatures over Arctic Silver 5.

Add to that the 3 to 5C improvement for lapping the processor cap, and another 3 to 5C for lapping the heatsink base (if it is nickel plated.) If not nickel-plated, at least the flatter base will still give you a marginal improvement in temperatures.

Every grain of rice adds up to a handful!!
 

alfa147x

Lifer
Jul 14, 2005
29,307
106
106
Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Too many unresolved issues with friends on this topic, and myths abound. So I throw in my two-cents worth.

1) Freezer pro 64 may be "ok," but unless you're just making an accommodation to surplus coolers on your AMD system, why not get a cooler that has the lowest thermal resistance? For "thermal Resistance," get a "TR" -- even the Ultima 90.

2) Take time to lap the processor down to bare copper. It won't matter if there's a couple slight patches of nickel left on it.

3) The advice about the isopropanol is sound. You can get anhydrous at an electronics store -- a bit pricey -- maybe $6 or $7 for a small bottle. You may be able to find 90% even at a drug store, but you can certainly find 70% at a drug store or Costco.

4) Don't waste your m**********n' time worrrying about "scratches!" Don't waste your time using 2000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. And don't waste your time and money using "Brasso." Start with (fresh) 320-grit to grind off 3/4 of the nickel-plate, then finish with (fresh) 400-grit. To make a smooth, satin-finish leaving mostly slight swirls, continue to sand with the used, "subdued" area of the 400-grit.

5) Buy IC diamond paste or mix your own with industrial micronized diamond and silicone thermal paste. $5 for the IC diamond is worth it. Assume stock thermal wattage (peak) of the processor is 95W: you will get a 2 to 4C improvement in temperatures over Arctic Silver 5.

Add to that the 3 to 5C improvement for lapping the processor cap, and another 3 to 5C for lapping the heatsink base (if it is nickel plated.) If not nickel-plated, at least the flatter base will still give you a marginal improvement in temperatures.

Every grain of rice adds up to a handful!!


Ok so wait wait wait you can make your own thermal paste ?!? is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

And what do you mean by " lap the processor down" ?
 

Cabages

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
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Thanks for the reminder Mondo, didnt even think of that.

And sorry for the ignorance, but im assuming lapping is sanding down the CPU to copper right? With the grit sand paper you specified?

And one more, I can do all that sanding and prep with the CPU currently in the socket?

And im really strapped for money. If I had the money, I would just go to a C2D system, so I cant really stretch a new HSF.

Thanks for all the help guys! Youve answered all my questions, and even given me advice into things I had no idea on.
 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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I agree that most of what everyone has said is at least reasonable under some conditions, though much of it isn't "necessary" for at least moderate success.

I've always stuck with the "spread the paste manually" method after a few dissatisfying experiences with the "dot / grain of rice / dollop & let it spread itself" methods. Particularly for viscous ('thick consistency') pastes.

IMHO a very light low viscosity grease (think between motor oil and maple syrup in a heated room) would probably spread itself pretty evenly pretty quickly, so applying a "dot" of it and letting the contact pressure spread it would be OK.

However stuff like Ceramique, AS5, etc. are pretty viscous materials, even moreso than toothpaste, more like wet cement / mortar / grout. They don't spread particularly well from heatsink to IHS pressure alone, and you'll not get a very fully spread cover over your IHS meaning that what IS there will be thicker than needed, and what ISN'T spread out will just (at least a little) deprive you of cooling surface area.

So though they say NOT to spread it yourself, I usually do. I take a credit card and use the edge as a squeegee or put my finger into a perfectly clean ziplock bag and use the outside surface of the bag to rub / press / stroke the stuff into a very thin layer. Usually the credit card (or straight razor blade) squeegee method is all you need plus a cotton swab / coffee filter to wpe up spills off the edges etc.

I try to create a layer all over the surface of the IHS that is basically as thin as a hair or a piece of paper. So thin that it is basically almost translucent and such that you'd have a hard time uniformly making it any thinner. Make it approximately a 100% uniformly thin layer across the whole IHS top and you're all set.

I also believe in the wisdom of hazing the heatsink base
surface before applying the thermal compound to the CPU IHS. Clean the IHS and heatsink base surface with IPA or whatever and let them dry and ensure there is no residue of oil / grease / dust on them, wipe with a lintless coffee filter to ensure they're hair / dust / dirt free.
Then take a small droplet of heatsink grease and apply it to the heatsink base surface, and use a clean ziplock bag like a glove over your finger and wipe that grease all over the surface of the heatsink's base plate (through the plastic). Then use a lintless coffee filter to wipe the heatsink base and give it a slight polish. Basically you'll wipe off all the 'layer' of HS grease you just put on there but you won't wipe hard enough to remove the microscopic 'hazy' residue of the HS compound that is now filling all the microscopic textures of the HS base.

Then just mate the HS to the IHS with the minimum scraping / rotating / sliding / etc. possible so that you preserve the uniformity of your HS grease layer on the IHS as much as possible, and achieve an even contact.

Yes you can make your own HS grease. There are several published reviews on various sites like AnandTech, Toms Hardware, VR Zone and what not where people have compared the leading dozens of commercial HS greases and have even added things like straight mineral oil, toothpaste, etc. to the test. Surprisingly just simple household stuff like toothpaste or mineral oil often seems to perform better than or as well as many of the commercial HS compounds! The potential problems, though, are how well they'd hold up over long term usage, whether they'd deteriorate in quality over time, etc.

Some diamond dust or fine alumina polishing grit and mineral oil or something like that would certainly WORK, though whether it's any BETTER than just buying a commercial compound, or any CHEAPER is far from certain.

Lapping:
The purpose of lapping is to grind (with sandpaper)
the metal surfaces of the heatsink base, and possibly also the CPU IHS to make them flatter than they already may be. The benefit is that the flatter they are the better contact they'll make and the better the heat transfer you'll get, lowering your operating temperatures. Many heatsinks are FAR from flat when you buy them, so lapping them can sometimes help A LOT. Most often the CPU IHS is PRETTY FLAT from the factory (though sometimes it is VERY warped), so usually there's less benefit to be had from lapping the CPU IHS. Typically you'd do tests with flat glass panes and a drop of water spreading out between the pane and the metal surface to check for flatness. You'd also use a flat razor blade edge against the metal surface and look for any light from a bright window / light bulb shining through any crack between the blade edge and the metal plate to check for flatness also. If they're pretty flat already, you don't lap them. If you've lapped them a bit and they're not correctly flat, you keep going until it's fixed.

You take a clear flat glass plate, like the one from
a 5" x 7" picture frame cover glass, tape (FLATLY!) a sheet of 320 grit wet/dry sandpaper to it, apply a few drops of water to wet it. Then take your heatsink, and apply FLAT EVEN STEADY GENTLE pressure down on the heatsink pressing it slightly against the glass, and stroke it a couple of inches, lift it up, place it back where you started the stroke from, and stroke again. You do about 20 one-directional strokes from top to bottom, then you lift the heatsink, rotate it 90 degrees, then do your next 20 strokes, etc. After about 5 minutes you'll have removed enough material (less than a millimeter) to flatten the metal, so you remove the sandpaper, clean up your glass / heatsink with water & IPA, get all the old grit / dust off. Then start with the next finer grade of sandpaper, say going from 320 grit to 450 grit or whatever, and repeat the process.

After you've gone through the sequence of 320, 450, 600, 800 grit papers you should have a very flat and smooth heatsink base that's ready to be cleaned with dusting / IPA and used in the PC.

The process for lapping the CPU IHS itself is about the same only you'll put the protective cap on to cover the CPU electrical contacts, masking tape around the areas needed to keep water / grit out of the CPU IHS openings and electrical contact areas, and so on. After the first few minutes you'll sand off the shiny nickel plating of the IHS and be down to bare copper. You may void your CPU's warranty doing this to the CPU IHS, however. Also you should be scrupulously aware of the proper ESD prevention / protection measures while handling the CPU as well as the proper ways to clean the metal dust up so no residue remains on the CPU.


Originally posted by: alfa147x
Ok so wait wait wait you can make your own thermal paste ?!? is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

And what do you mean by " lap the processor down" ?

 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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Originally posted by: alfa147x
is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

No. Just stick with the stock Intel or AMD heatsink / fan
and their thermal grease / pad / whatever.
That is GUARANTEED to work well enough for anyone who
ISN'T OCing.

Actually if you have a WolfDale, Yorkfield CPU, don't bother
too much with any special temperature management concerns, they run so cool that high temperatures aren't going to substantially limit your OC unless you're running a VERY high OC. Just a better-than-average heatsink/fan with grease instead of thermal tape is really all you'd typically need for a decent OC on those.


 

QuixoticOne

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2005
1,855
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0
Yes that's what lapping is as applied to a CPU with a metal IHS. You'd typically do it to the heatsink (unless it's very flat already), and only do it to the CPU IHS if you measure the CPU IHS as being quite significantly non-flat.

If you're not going to buy a better than average HSF (and it's perfectly reasonable NOT to if cost is a concern, after all, you'll STILL have a perfectly decent computer that will run a bit faster than stock speeds), don't bother lapping, it's not really going to net you that much benefit typically with a stock OEM heatsink / fan.

You do NOT sand / lap with the CPU in the socket!
You HOLD the CPU and move *IT* in a rubbing motion down on a static piece of sandpaper which is taped to a glass pane which is sitting on a table or whatever. The sandpaper never moves, and you're NOWHERE near your computer when this is being done. You'll have fine metal dust and water ALL OVER the CPU which would INSTANTLY short out and destroy the CPU / motherboard. So you must of course clean up very well after lapping before you install the CPU. It is an advanced technique and you'll likely fry the CPU with electrostatic discharge if you don't pay careful attention to grounding, static dissipative work areas, avoiding exposing / touching the electrical contacts, etc.

Here's more info:
http://www.exoid.com/?page_id=81
http://www.tomshardware.com/fo...6600-with-pics-results
http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...ad.php?t=156774&page=9
http://www.tomshardware.com/fo...reme-pics-temp-results

Originally posted by: Cabages
Thanks for the reminder Mondo, didnt even think of that.

And sorry for the ignorance, but im assuming lapping is sanding down the CPU to copper right? With the grit sand paper you specified?

And one more, I can do all that sanding and prep with the CPU currently in the socket?

And im really strapped for money. If I had the money, I would just go to a C2D system, so I cant really stretch a new HSF.

Thanks for all the help guys! Youve answered all my questions, and even given me advice into things I had no idea on.

 

toadeater

Senior member
Jul 16, 2007
488
0
0
Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
1) Freezer pro 64 may be "ok," but unless you're just making an accommodation to surplus coolers on your AMD system, why not get a cooler that has the lowest thermal resistance? For "thermal Resistance," get a "TR" -- even the Ultima 90.

The Freezer is more than enough for an X2 3800+. No reason to buy a heatsink that costs as much as the CPU when you're not going to make use of its potential.

You might want to look in the cases/cooling section of this forum, if you want to get into a serious discussion about heatsinks.
 

alfa147x

Lifer
Jul 14, 2005
29,307
106
106
Originally posted by: QuixoticOne
Originally posted by: alfa147x
is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

No. Just stick with the stock Intel or AMD heatsink / fan
and their thermal grease / pad / whatever.
That is GUARANTEED to work well enough for anyone who
ISN'T OCing.

Actually if you have a WolfDale, Yorkfield CPU, don't bother
too much with any special temperature management concerns, they run so cool that high temperatures aren't going to substantially limit your OC unless you're running a VERY high OC. Just a better-than-average heatsink/fan with grease instead of thermal tape is really all you'd typically need for a decent OC on those.

45n intel soon
 

Cabages

Platinum Member
Jan 1, 2006
2,918
0
0
Okay, sorry, one more question.

Should I take the CPU out of the socket to clean it with the coffee filters and isopropyl?

Should finally get around to doing this tomorrow.
 

hondaf17

Senior member
Sep 25, 2005
763
16
81
Is it absoultely necessary to remove the thermal paste from the CPU when installing a new HSF? Shouldn't the "old" thermal paste that's already on the CPU adaquately re-bond with the new HSF?

Reason I ask is because we had a Dell tech guy come into our office and replace a motherboard from a machine. I watched him do it all in about 3 minutes and I asked the exact question I posted above and he said it doesn't matter, it re-bonds just fine.

For a basic computer I don't want to screw with this unless I absolutely have to.
 

toadeater

Senior member
Jul 16, 2007
488
0
0
Originally posted by: hondaf17
Is it absoultely necessary to remove the thermal paste from the CPU when installing a new HSF? Shouldn't the "old" thermal paste that's already on the CPU adaquately re-bond with the new HSF?

Adequately, but not optimally. A new heatsink will have a different surface than the one you previously used. If the thermal paste is a thin layer that was created around the previous heatsink there may be some gaps left when the new heatsink is used.

It's better to clean it off and apply a new layer if you switch heatsinks.
 

hondaf17

Senior member
Sep 25, 2005
763
16
81
Thanks for the response toadeater. I guess I should be more specific. I am appyling the same heatsink to the same processor - I only had to take it apart so I could send the dead MOBO in for a replacement. Make a difference?

TYIA,
 

DerwenArtos12

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
4,278
0
0
Originally posted by: hondaf17
Thanks for the response toadeater. I guess I should be more specific. I am appyling the same heatsink to the same processor - I only had to take it apart so I could send the dead MOBO in for a replacement. Make a difference?

TYIA,

There are distinct chances that things will be just slightly different and 100ths of an inch can make a big difference with heatsinks. To be completely honest, coffee filters work beautifully, 90%+ for $1 at walgreens works perfectly and if you're not overclocking and don't have any thermal paste laying around Arctic Silver Ceramique will work more than adequately. Thermal paste will re-adhere to a degree however, with any thermal paste that has a high content of metal, the binding agent used to make it into paste will set over time so re-applying is best. If you're not overclocking there is no real need for anything over teh sock heatsink unless you want lower temperatures or lower sound levels. Anything you do over stock is going to be an improvement. Lapping the IHS and/or heatsink and using exotic thermal compounds are really only "necessary" when overclocking.

And before anyone jumps all over me, yes, I've lapped and yes I've used different TIMs, I've even removed the IHS from my A64 to get the ocerclock I've got so no, I'm not saying any of this without full knowledge of the advantages rought by doing all of this, I am in fact VERY familiar with all of it and that's exactly why I'm making the reccomendation I am.
 

taltamir

Lifer
Mar 21, 2004
13,576
6
76
Originally posted by: alfa147x
Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Too many unresolved issues with friends on this topic, and myths abound. So I throw in my two-cents worth.

1) Freezer pro 64 may be "ok," but unless you're just making an accommodation to surplus coolers on your AMD system, why not get a cooler that has the lowest thermal resistance? For "thermal Resistance," get a "TR" -- even the Ultima 90.

2) Take time to lap the processor down to bare copper. It won't matter if there's a couple slight patches of nickel left on it.

3) The advice about the isopropanol is sound. You can get anhydrous at an electronics store -- a bit pricey -- maybe $6 or $7 for a small bottle. You may be able to find 90% even at a drug store, but you can certainly find 70% at a drug store or Costco.

4) Don't waste your m**********n' time worrrying about "scratches!" Don't waste your time using 2000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. And don't waste your time and money using "Brasso." Start with (fresh) 320-grit to grind off 3/4 of the nickel-plate, then finish with (fresh) 400-grit. To make a smooth, satin-finish leaving mostly slight swirls, continue to sand with the used, "subdued" area of the 400-grit.

5) Buy IC diamond paste or mix your own with industrial micronized diamond and silicone thermal paste. $5 for the IC diamond is worth it. Assume stock thermal wattage (peak) of the processor is 95W: you will get a 2 to 4C improvement in temperatures over Arctic Silver 5.

Add to that the 3 to 5C improvement for lapping the processor cap, and another 3 to 5C for lapping the heatsink base (if it is nickel plated.) If not nickel-plated, at least the flatter base will still give you a marginal improvement in temperatures.

Every grain of rice adds up to a handful!!


Ok so wait wait wait you can make your own thermal paste ?!? is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

And what do you mean by " lap the processor down" ?

No it isn't... its only for extreme overclockers... you can mix your own thermal paste from diamond dust. its pricey, its dangerous (diamond dust is dangerous... and some is bound to get around.. wear protective eye and mouth gear at a minimum).

And lapping is where you sand the CPU and heatsink into a very even flat surfuce (it usually ends with a mirror finish, but its not about the finish, its the evenness of the surface)... It will void your warranty. and is only for the most extreme of overclockers...
It is also 3 hours of work!

As a person who doesn't overclock you should do neither.
 

DerwenArtos12

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2003
4,278
0
0
Originally posted by: taltamir
Originally posted by: alfa147x
Originally posted by: BonzaiDuck
Too many unresolved issues with friends on this topic, and myths abound. So I throw in my two-cents worth.

1) Freezer pro 64 may be "ok," but unless you're just making an accommodation to surplus coolers on your AMD system, why not get a cooler that has the lowest thermal resistance? For "thermal Resistance," get a "TR" -- even the Ultima 90.

2) Take time to lap the processor down to bare copper. It won't matter if there's a couple slight patches of nickel left on it.

3) The advice about the isopropanol is sound. You can get anhydrous at an electronics store -- a bit pricey -- maybe $6 or $7 for a small bottle. You may be able to find 90% even at a drug store, but you can certainly find 70% at a drug store or Costco.

4) Don't waste your m**********n' time worrrying about "scratches!" Don't waste your time using 2000-grit wet-or-dry sandpaper. And don't waste your time and money using "Brasso." Start with (fresh) 320-grit to grind off 3/4 of the nickel-plate, then finish with (fresh) 400-grit. To make a smooth, satin-finish leaving mostly slight swirls, continue to sand with the used, "subdued" area of the 400-grit.

5) Buy IC diamond paste or mix your own with industrial micronized diamond and silicone thermal paste. $5 for the IC diamond is worth it. Assume stock thermal wattage (peak) of the processor is 95W: you will get a 2 to 4C improvement in temperatures over Arctic Silver 5.

Add to that the 3 to 5C improvement for lapping the processor cap, and another 3 to 5C for lapping the heatsink base (if it is nickel plated.) If not nickel-plated, at least the flatter base will still give you a marginal improvement in temperatures.

Every grain of rice adds up to a handful!!


Ok so wait wait wait you can make your own thermal paste ?!? is it worth the work for someone who isnt going to be OC'ing?

And what do you mean by " lap the processor down" ?

No it isn't... its only for extreme overclockers... you can mix your own thermal paste from diamond dust. its pricey, its dangerous (diamond dust is dangerous... and some is bound to get around.. wear protective eye and mouth gear at a minimum).

And lapping is where you sand the CPU and heatsink into a very even flat surfuce (it usually ends with a mirror finish, but its not about the finish, its the evenness of the surface)... It will void your warranty. and is only for the most extreme of overclockers...
It is also 3 hours of work!

As a person who doesn't overclock you should do neither.

you only spend 3 hours lapping? You mean 3 hours each for the heatsink and the IHS right?