Remembering Black September

[Doboji]

What was that?

You have two threads:

1. Israel apparently was indirectly responsible for the deaths of between 800-3500 Palestinians 28 years ago. Actual deaths were inflicted by Arab Christians.

2. Jordan (an Arab country) was directly responsible for the deaths of between 30000-50000 Palestinians 40 years ago. Actual deaths were inflicted by Arabs.

It is bullshit that the thread everyone gives a crap about is thread 1, and everyone jumps on the "you israeli bastards" bandwagon. Meanwhile noone says "boo" about what the Jordanians did.

It's a double standard... and if you can't recognize that, I'm amazed you have the intellect to figure out how to submit a post at all.

 

[Moonbeam]

You don't think Israeli violence receives disproportionate media attention compared to violence perpetrated by other nations? You sure about that Craig?

It's odd, because you seem to recognize *other* double standards about violence. So, for example, in another thread you found it strange that we get up in arms about a single beheading by Muslim terrorists when the U.S. kills a lot more people militarily. Well the argument is parellel here. Hundreds can die in Darfur over the course of a week, and you see one article about that for every 10 about a single Palestinian killed by the IDF. In fact, the entire media coverage of the Israel/Palestine dispute is rather odd in that you even see articles about single Palestinians getting killed, where thousands die in other parts of the world without a lick of coverage.

Try applying what you are suggesting is your critical eye of objectivity to an issue where the result doesn't suit your ideological comfort zone for once. You might actually discover something that hadn't occurred to you before...

- wolf

Well, sixty years of supporting some faction in Dafur isn't causing us to waste trillions in war or causing plains to fly into our buildings. Let the bad press on both sides pile up till they make peace.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

You know what I hate even more than Jews portraying us as victims? It's Jews afraid to call a rat a rat for fear of being called a "Jew crying victim". We're not poor victims anymore... we've got our shit together now, we've got Israel, but that doesn't mean anti-semitism is dead, and that we should stop "crying" about the holocaust now. I will call that garbage out every single time I see it.

You are the crying victim, playing the role of the victim in this play you set up with this thread, you do realise that?

I'm not afraid to call the Hamas retarded inbred pieces of shit, i'm not afraid to call you a fucking twat who cannot even read a post and accept the message within without getting defensive about your victim mentality.

I've read some of your past posts, and perhaps it's just you being drunk now and that explains it but you didn't portray this victim mentality in any other posts i read from you, rather, you seemed to be an intelligent man who actually spent some time thinking before speaking.

Whatever it is, get over it, it's fucking annoying.

 

[Doboji]

You are the crying victim, playing the role of the victim in this play you set up with this thread, you do realise that?

I'm not afraid to call the Hamas retarded inbred pieces of shit, i'm not afraid to call you a fucking twat who cannot even read a post and accept the message within without getting defensive about your victim mentality.

I've read some of your past posts, and perhaps it's just you being drunk now and that explains it but you didn't portray this victim mentality in any other posts i read from you, rather, you seemed to be an intelligent man who actually spent some time thinking before speaking.

Whatever it is, get over it, it's fucking annoying.

Maybe I'm just fed up... I'm tired of dramatic bullshit posts about the suffering of Palestinians where people throw terms like "Holocaust" and "Apartheid" around as often as possible. I'm tired of hearing how the term "Anti-semitic" is improperly used, as if that somehow delegitimizes discussions related to it's utilized meaning.

And I'm tired of hearing how "Wahhh stop playing the victim". I'm not playing the victim... I'm calling bullshit on the thread about Sabra and Chatilla. People seem to LOVE to talk about injustices to the Palestinians at the hands of Israel, but they don't generally give two shits about the injustices to the Palestinians at the hands of... well ANYONE else. Even though if you were to sit down and catalogue death, injury and displacement... Israel is hardly the greatest perpetrator.

If the concern truly is about the wellbeing of the Palestinians... then we really should cut the bullshit and actually have that conversation. That never happens though... people are far more interested in finding an easier target to focus wrath on.... that doesn't make Israel the "victim" per se. In actuality it is the Palestinians who are the real victims when the world fails to recognize that the scope of their sad state extends deep into Arab lands and people.

-Max

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Maybe I'm just fed up... I'm tired of dramatic bullshit posts about the suffering of Palestinians where people throw terms like "Holocaust" and "Apartheid" around as often as possible. I'm tired of hearing how the term "Anti-semitic" is improperly used, as if that somehow delegitimizes discussions related to it's utilized meaning.

And I'm tired of hearing how "Wahhh stop playing the victim". I'm not playing the victim... I'm calling bullshit on the thread about Sabra and Chatilla. People seem to LOVE to talk about injustices to the Palestinians at the hands of Israel, but they don't generally give two shits about the injustices to the Palestinians at the hands of... well ANYONE else. Even though if you were to sit down and catalogue death, injury and displacement... Israel is hardly the greatest perpetrator.

If the concern truly is about the wellbeing of the Palestinians... then we really should cut the bullshit and actually have that conversation. That never happens though... people are far more interested in finding an easier target to focus wrath on.... that doesn't make Israel the "victim" per se. In actuality it is the Palestinians who are the real victims when the world fails to recognize that the scope of their sad state extends deep into Arab lands and people.

-Max

So fucking what, let them cry, let them call it a holocaust, i don't give a fuck and neither should you, we should know better than even trying to engage those retards.

Look, Max, i don't think you are a whiner, i really don't, i've seen enough posts from you to know that you are intelligent and man enough to step out of your own shoes and wear the other sides at times, i admire that greatly, but you are getting sucked into a discussion by mere words. Don't feel bad about that, happens to me all the time and then i get infractions...

Point is, don't let the motherfuckers get to you, you know better.

שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם

Jake

 

[Perknose]

The massacres at Sabra and Shatila were bloody, unnecessary revenge-lust bloodbaths, and tragic therefore.

They were not military operations, just massacres. Black September was the military response of a legitimate government fighting for its very existence against armed intruders.

The PLO and a plethora of other, even more radical armed Palestinian groups repeatedly tried to assassinate King Hussein and take over Jordan entirely with open, armed rebellion and defiance. They had the armed intervention of Syria to help them, even.

What the hell was Hussein and his Hashemite tribe supposed to do, lay down and die and lose their country? They attacked back, and civilians did indeed die in the mostly urban, do or fucking die fighting. The Jordanians put the Palestinian toll at around 1,000 - 3,000 dead, iirc, which includes all fighters as well as civilians.

It was the PLO and others who claimed, without any proof, that 10,000 had died. The OP now tries to inflate even that bullshit number to "tens of thousands" and to imply that it was entirely a massacre of innocent civilians.

So, in Black September a legitimate ruling government fighting for its very existence incurred unavoidable civilian casualties vs. the ugly, bloody, wholesale revenge massacre of a non-resisting civilians in a walled-off refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila?

And you, OP, wish to equate the two and then draw the conclusion that from news coverage that our press is therefore biased against . . . Israel?

 

[Dekasa]

I don't get it, I thought the Arabs wanted us to not have anything to do with them? Why the hell should we care/do anything if they shoot each other up, for any reason? If you want us out, we can probably do that (once we finally get these damned wars finished up), but don't go all terrorist because we're in your business, then cry for help/pity later.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

The massacres at Sabra and Shatila were bloody, unnecessary revenge-lust bloodbaths, and tragic therefore.

They were not military operations, just massacres. Black September was the military response of a legitimate government fighting for its very existence against armed intruders.

The PLO and a plethora of other, even more radical armed Palestinian groups repeatedly tried to assassinate King Hussein and take over Jordan entirely with open, armed rebellion and defiance. They had the armed intervention of Syria to help them, even.

What the hell was Hussein and his Hashemite tribe supposed to do, lay down and die and lose their country? They attacked back, and civilians did indeed die in the mostly urban, do or fucking die fighting. The Jordanians put the Palestinian toll at around 1,000 - 3,000 dead, iirc, which includes all fighters as well as civilians.

It was the PLO and others who claimed, without any proof, that 10,000 had died. The OP now tries to inflate even that bullshit number to "tens of thousands" and to imply that it was entirely a massacre of innocent civilians.

So, in Black September a legitimate ruling government fighting for its very existence incurred unavoidable civilian casualties vs. the ugly, bloody, wholesale revenge massacre of a non-resisting civilians in a walled-off refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila?

And you, OP, wish to equate the two and then draw the conclusion that from news coverage that our press is therefore biased against . . . Israel?

Actually, i think he's more annoyed with the various threads on the matter which distort the truth rather than the actual news reporting itself.

And while you might look to yourself for the measuring rod, others might have their own.

Even now, 65 years after the fact, some words do still attract attention and make emotions run high, but you already know that.

So cut him some slack, read some of his other recent posts, i'd say that he's one of the most level headed people in this forum.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

I don't get it, I thought the Arabs wanted us to not have anything to do with them? Why the hell should we care/do anything if they shoot each other up, for any reason? If you want us out, we can probably do that (once we finally get these damned wars finished up), but don't go all terrorist because we're in your business, then cry for help/pity later.

Son, just shut the fuck up before you make an even bigger fool out of yourself. Remember this warning because i'll refer to it later on.

 

[Craig234]

If you want us out, we can probably do that (once we finally get these damned wars finished up), but don't go all terrorist because we're in your business, then cry for help/pity later.

LOL. Read "The Devil's Game", then get back to me on the 'we can stay out' statement.

We've spent a century arranging the power in the region, including the radicals.

 

[Doboji]

Actually, i think he's more annoyed with the various threads on the matter which distort the truth rather than the actual news reporting itself.

And while you might look to yourself for the measuring rod, others might have their own.

Even now, 65 years after the fact, some words do still attract attention and make emotions run high, but you already know that.

So cut him some slack, read some of his other recent posts, i'd say that he's one of the most level headed people in this forum.

This is the point essentially... I didn't create this thread to try to dig into the details of the events and sort out exactly what happened, how many people were killed, what proportion were innocent, and who is to blame. My point was to point out the ridiculousness of the Sabra and Shatila thread... That thread was pure propaganda, it linked to an article that absolutely distorted the truth, and the OP decided to throw around the "Holocaust" word as a semantic weapon.

The fundamental question remains of course... Why does the Sabra and Shatila massacre warrant a special thread... and countless other massacres...do not?

The answer is exactly what we all know it is... its propaganda, it's pretty much bait... and I pretty much jumped on that line with both jaws. As Jake pointed out to me.

I feel somewhat better having lashed out my frustrations a little... but at the end of the day... I probably didn't accomplish anything. Oh well.