Religious thread - if you don't like religious threads - DONT READ IT.

[notfred]

<< maybe this will clear it up... but maybe not. As far as I understand it (I am not a new Christian, but I still have a ton to learn) God sent his son to die for our sins. This means that all we have to do is accept that he did that for us and we are "in" The Bible calls us to pursue a righteous life and to try and strive to be like Jesus, but really the bare minimum is just that you choose to accept Christs sacrifice for you. If you don't choose to accept it, then you don't go to heaven, there is no other way around that. As far as I can tell from Bible studies with friends and reading on my own, there are exceptions for children who die before they are old enough to really make that decision, but I am sitll not sure about that. Does that help at all? >>



I've heard that all before. I went to christian schools and churches for years.

The thing about children going to heaven isn't in the bible, people made it up to make things seem more fair.


What I'm saying is that Jesus did not die for everyone, but only the people that accept him. If he had died for EVERYONE, then the people who didn't accept Jesus would still go to heaven, they'd just be forgiven for one more mistake than the people that did choose to beleive in him.


As far as jesus dying for everyojne's sins, I find the whole story lacking in logic.

The logic is that, as people we all sin, and therefore are not worthy to enter heaven.

Jesus' death takes the place of our death, so that we get to go to heaven.

however, as Jesus and God are the same being, the only one saying that Jesus has to die for us to go to heaven, is Jesus himself. He just as easily could have forgiven us all without dying, as he's the one who makes the rules.

 

[AreaCode707]

<< What I'm saying is that Jesus did not die for everyone, but only the people that accept him. If he had died for EVERYONE, then the people who didn't accept Jesus would still go to heaven, they'd just be forgiven for one more mistake than the people that did choose to beleive in him.


As far as jesus dying for everyojne's sins, I find the whole story lacking in logic.

The logic is that, as people we all sin, and therefore are not worthy to enter heaven.

Jesus' death takes the place of our death, so that we get to go to heaven.

however, as Jesus and God are the same being, the only one saying that Jesus has to die for us to go to heaven, is Jesus himself. He just as easily could have forgiven us all without dying, as he's the one who makes the rules. >>



You obviously have thought this through because you raise some good, and difficult, points. What if I changed the phrasing to say not that he died for everyone, but that he died to give everyone a choice?

Your last point here is one that I have considered a lot, because I see the same tough spots as you do. A lot of this comes down to the free will issue though I think. He could have just forgiven everyone, but then did we get to choose? We inherently like being able to make our own decisions. About him dying though, when he's the rulemaker and didn't have to. How good of a rulemaker is he if he doesn't play by his own rules? "Here, I'm going to set up all the rules, if they're hard tough luck" but when it comes to him having to deal with them, it'd be unfair for him to just change the rules for his convenience. It's not just that he died but that he became like us and lived with us, dealt with our same problems, abided by his own rules. Not the best response, I know, but it's one thirty and I was suppsoed to go to sleep at 10!

 

[AreaCode707]

<< There is no way to not choose. The choice is laid out and you get your pick. Refusing to choose is a choice to reject love. If you're with a girl, she says, do you love me or not, and you say you don't want to choose, she's not going to treat you like you love her.

suppose i could fly, or do something amazing like that. suppose some people kept on telling a girl that i loved her, along with telling her that i could do things like create planets. she never really sees, hears, or interacts with me at all. do i have a right to be pissed if she doesn't love me back? >>



No, but you also don't have to act like her boyfriend if she doesn't love you back, especially if she never gives you a chance.
We switched, I put the girl in the place of God and you put the guy there.

 

[notfred]

I've definitely thought about this a lot. I spent about 5 years in christian schools. Back when I was about 12, I really, honestly tried to do the whole "I accept Jesus into my heart" prayer and stuff that the people there said you had to do. Know what happened after I said the prayer? Nothing. It's either because it's really not true, or because it only works for people who are actually convinced before they start taking things on faith. I never in my life had a prayer answered, felt the presence of god, witnessed a miracle, etc. As I got older, too many sections of the bible, and the religion that goes along with it didn't seem to make sense.


Anyway, back to this thread.

I understand the idea of free will, the basic idea is that god wants people around him that like him because they want to like him, rather than becuase they have no other choice. But I'd think that if god wanted to be fair, he'd be a little more obvious about things. Remember, God loves us, right, even people like me . You'd think that, because he loves us, he would want us to end up in a heavenly paradise (or the new earth, the final destination is really irrelevant), as opposed to a firey lake. If he really loved us so much, would it be that much work for him to come down and visit each of us for a few minutes. Show us that he's actually there and that he actually cares? I mean, if your brother was making a decision that could end his life if he made the wrong chioce, I'm sure you'd go tak to him, right? You wouldn't just say "ah, he can read my book" or, "I already told Peter and Paul about that, he can go talk to them" I find it hard to beleive a god that so loving could act so indifferntly to people that he supposedly loves more than anyone has ever loved anything.

Maybe this is why my 7th grade experiment failed.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

<< And by the same logic, Jesus didn't die for everyone, he only died for the people that want to accept him. >>

Okay, so why not just take those people who are going to accept Him to heaven right now and burn the rest in hell? He died for *everyone* including those who are leading the church of satan and rubbish. If He didn't die for everyone -if He extended His life and love only to certain people, then what kind of God does that make him?

nik

 

[gopunk]

No, but you also don't have to act like her boyfriend if she doesn't love you back, especially if she never gives you a chance.

er yea looking back, i have no idea what my point was... i need more sleep

We switched, I put the girl in the place of God and you put the guy there.

i started out with a girl there, but for some reason i have since forgotten, switched. it happened when i decided to write in first person.

 

[gopunk]

Okay, so why not just take those people who are going to accept Him to heaven right now and burn the rest in hell?

because people's destinies are not necessarily predetermined, depending on what denomination of christianity you subscribe to.

 

[Valhalla1]

Dude #1 - psychotic demented deviant freak who molests rapes and kills 50 children and babies... "finds god" and asks his forgiveness 10 minutes before his execution in prison. lives forever alongside God in heaven...


Dude #2 - moral upstanding citizen, never breaks a law or "commandment", never harms anyone and always Does the Right Thing.. but wasn't raised religiously so never went to church or really thought about a higher being. he dies at a happy old age in his sleep lying next to his wife of 50 years. he spends eternity burning in the pits of hell.


Christianity, its hard for me to understand.

 

[AreaCode707]

<<

<< And by the same logic, Jesus didn't die for everyone, he only died for the people that want to accept him. >>

Okay, so why not just take those people who are going to accept Him to heaven right now and burn the rest in hell? He died for *everyone* including those who are leading the church of satan and rubbish. If He didn't die for everyone -if He extended His life and love only to certain people, then what kind of God does that make him?

nik >>



*sprays nik in the face with ffm-be-gone spray* Now if you'll kindly kick me out of here too...
notfred, I really respect your attitude towards this whole thing; you've thought it through, you're respectful, you listen and counter points with good logic and no personal attacks. A rarity, and worth a ten on your ratings. I'm reaching the end of my ability to discuss, mostly because I'm tired but also because you're asking questions that I, in all honesty, ask myself. If I don't question my faith I live in blindness, which I don't want to do. I do not at all like falling back on the "God is mysterious, we don't understand his ways" argument because, while it may be true, it's an escape when we're indaquately trying to reason things away. I don't know why God doesn't make himself obvious to everyone but I do trust his character enough to believe that he won't make it more difficult than is possible for you to know him. Guess it does take a step of faith, like you were saying. How much risk, in actual belief not just repeating words to a prayer, are you willing to take? It's like telling a girl (or guy in my case) that you have a crush on them, no knowing if they'll respond well. Maybe knowing God takes that first, dangerous step of actually believing him before you know what's past that step. In any case, thank you for your good attitude about this all, it's an indicator of character.

 

[xirtam]

Jesus' death wasn't about heaven and hell. Unfortunately a lot of Christians have reduced the gospel of Christianity into a sales presentation.

The real issue was a relationship. God's not consequentialist like we are. He doesn't do things based on outcomes or worthless "pick-me-up" feelings. If the means didn't matter and all that mattered was happiness, God would give us all drugs. Brave New World, anyone? Take a little soma and be happy.

God loves the world (John 3:16). Because of the world's choices, God couldn't have the quality relationship He wanted with the world. Jesus was the means whereby the world and God could be reconciled. Heaven and hell are side-issues related to your relationship with God. They are not the ends. If the only reason you accept Christ is because you were scared out of hell, you're not choosing Christ for the right reason. Just like you don't mean it when you say "I love you, Mom" if the only reason to do it is to get out of being grounded. Does that mean that nobody loves their parents because they get grounded?



<< because people's destinies are not necessarily predetermined, depending on what denomination of christianity you subscribe to. >>



Thank you for making my point, gopunk. Christianity isn't a subscription. It's a relationship -- a way of life, of being, not doing. And they either are or are not predetermined. Let's cut the relativistic "well, if you say this, that makes it so for you" bullcrap. Again, nothing personal, gopunk, but it's bad philosophy like relativism that makes me want to gopuke.

notfred: I understand your struggle. Sometimes it's hard to understand how an infinite Being who loves us so much wouldn't pay us each a personal visit. I wish it were the case, but God in His sovereignty chooses not to be so obvious all the time. Besides, with today's study in psychology, we'd find a way to explain it away anyhow. There are other ways God chooses to reveal himself through nature. Our own intuition, the fact that we exist as contingent beings, the complexity and wonder of Creation, etc. Keep sorting it out. "Blessed even more are those who have not seen, yet still believe."

And here's the answer to the modified question: NO! The earthly sense of love is way too ambiguous for my tastes. Even more than that: it doesn't include God's love, which is the unconditional agape kind of love that God shows toward us. Love in this world has largely been reduced to eroticism and some kind of feeling, rather than a choice.

Good night, all.