Religious children are meaner than their secular counterparts, study finds

[IronWing]

Sometimes I wonder if there's any such thing as an honest atheist.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Aroused_When_Daring_God_to_Do_Terrible_Things

Did you even get as far as reading the abstract? Seriously, the link you provided says nothing pertinent to the discussion here.

 

[pmv]

Maybe if there were less mean children we'd naturally have less suicides.

Fewer sucides!

Come to think of it "less mean children" and "fewer mean children" seem to mean different things...a rare example where the difference actually matters.

 

[pmv]

I wwonder if they would get different results doing a similar study specifically with Sikh children or Quaker children

Nixon was a Quaker, no? I bet he wasn't a nice child.

I've encountered a few obnoxious Quakers. Though I gather there are different types of Quaker?

 

[IronWing]

Nixon was a Quaker, no? I bet he wasn't a nice child.

I've encountered a few obnoxious Quakers. Though I gather there are different types of Quaker?

Quakers are all about personal choice. You can choose to be a war mongering, village burning jackass and still be a good Quaker.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Quakers are all about personal choice. You can choose to be a war mongering, village burning jackass and still be a good Quaker.

I didn't mean to imply anything about "all" quakers, I simply pondered if as a general pool, the quakers would be different vs protestants or catholics ....
I wonder if the kids are rotten because of general god delusion, or, if it particular formats of god delusion have worse side effects than others.

 

[digiram]

Christianity to me is kind of strange. Jesus came to forgive everyone's sins? So, you can kind of do whatever you want and on Sunday have all of it forgiven? I went to church a lot as a child and still don't get that.

Anyhow, I have a better teaching for everyone. You have one life to live. Live it to it's full extent and enjoy the most of what it has to offer. Nobody knows what happens after life is done so don't take it for granted.

 

[Jhhnn]

Quakers are all about personal choice. You can choose to be a war mongering, village burning jackass and still be a good Quaker.

That's misinformed-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Conscientious_objection

Just because Nixon was raised in the Quaker Faith does not mean he held to its teachings. Quite the contrary.

 

[pmv]

That's misinformed-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Conscientious_objection

Just because Nixon was raised in the Quaker Faith does not mean he held to its teachings. Quite the contrary.

But isn't that just the 'No True Scotsman' defence?

I've encountered Quakers who were passively-racist Ayn Rand reading libertarians. Pacifist-leaning, but with very little sympathy for those less well-off than themselves and with no awareness of racism as an issue. They do tend to be white and middle-class, demographically-speaking, after all.

What I was wondering about, is that I vaguely heard somewhere there are different strands of Quakerism and that some are more politically 'progressive' than are others. I could just google it I guess...

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

This definitely isn't news, and this definitely isn't anything that hasn't already been known. I posted this in another thread.... Violence and religion have correlated pretty closely for quite some time.


Most religious:

Most violent

I'm sure you can correlate further with a map of countries by average IQ level.

 

[pmv]

The strongest correlation found seems to be between religiosity and level of economic inequality. Seems obvious why - economic inequality gives both rich and poor alike a need for supernatural consolation. The poor to endure their low-status, politically-weak position, and to create a source of practical social support in the absence of a welfare state, and the rich to evade guilt and unease and to convince themselves their good-fortune is a reward for virtue.

You can even see it change in real time - increasing inequality in China is going hand-in-hand with a growth of religion.

 

[sandorski]

The strongest correlation found seems to be between religiosity and level of economic inequality. Seems obvious why - economic inequality gives both rich and poor alike a need for supernatural consolation. The poor to endure their low-status, politically-weak position, and to create a source of practical social support in the absence of a welfare state, and the rich to evade guilt and unease and to convince themselves their good-fortune is a reward for virtue.

You can even see it change in real time - increasing inequality in China is going hand-in-hand with a growth of religion.

The Opiate of the Masses. People tend to use Religion as a source of comfort. Increased discomfort, increased religiosity. At least that's how Marx thought of it.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The strongest correlation found seems to be between religiosity and level of economic inequality. Seems obvious why - economic inequality gives both rich and poor alike a need for supernatural consolation. The poor to endure their low-status, politically-weak position, and to create a source of practical social support in the absence of a welfare state, and the rich to evade guilt and unease and to convince themselves their good-fortune is a reward for virtue.

You can even see it change in real time - increasing inequality in China is going hand-in-hand with a growth of religion.

lol "level of inequality"? That's a silly thing to try and measure. If everyone in a country is poor, then what is it? I'd love to see this correlation you're talking about.

Then you add 1 rich person on a hill and it magically changes overnight to "economic inequality" instead?

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

lol "level of inequality"? That's a silly thing to try and measure. If everyone in a country is poor, then what is it? I'd love to see this correlation you're talking about.

Then you add 1 rich person on a hill and it magically changes overnight to "economic inequality" instead?

Uh yeah kinda. Tons of ye olden cities were exactly like this, one person/family had all the money, and everyone else farmed dirt for a living. Hell, in many places, the church *was* the family with all the money.

If everyone's dirt poor, everyone's equal. Comparatively speaking most average people in America are far wealthier in terms of raw wealth than many lords of old, but they can still have great economic inequality compared to others.

What he's saying is, places that have large amounts of perceived (or real) economic inequality tends to be where religion is fostered. Where there's less inequality, there's less religion. That doesn't mean everyone has to be rich, just at the same level.

 

[soulcougher73]

This definitely isn't news, and this definitely isn't anything that hasn't already been known. I posted this in another thread.... Violence and religion have correlated pretty closely for quite some time.


Most religious:

Most violent

I'm sure you can correlate further with a map of countries by average IQ level.

That is because religion is tribal in nature. It is "us" against "them". We are right, they are wrong. They must assimilate or die. Religion is for the stupid, hence why their are so many religious people. Err i mean stupid people...err....you get the idea.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Uh yeah kinda. Tons of ye olden cities were exactly like this, one person/family had all the money, and everyone else farmed dirt for a living. Hell, in many places, the church *was* the family with all the money.

If everyone's dirt poor, everyone's equal. Comparatively speaking most average people in America are far wealthier in terms of raw wealth than many lords of old, but they can still have great economic inequality compared to others.

What he's saying is, places that have large amounts of perceived (or real) economic inequality tends to be where religion is fostered. Where there's less inequality, there's less religion. That doesn't mean everyone has to be rich, just at the same level.

Yeah, I just don't see anything (facts or otherwise) that would indicate income inequality being the answer. Level of education in the area would be a lot more realistic of the underlying problems. Income inequality might be a by-product, but doesn't quite line up for saying that income inequality is the reason people are religious and violent.

 

[pmv]

The Opiate of the Masses. People tend to use Religion as a source of comfort. Increased discomfort, increased religiosity. At least that's how Marx thought of it.

Pretty much, yes. And of course he's often misinterpreted as being more anti-religion than he strictly was. I think he meant opium as painkiller more than opium as an addictive destructive drug.

Also perhaps Fentanyl is now giving religion a run for its money? We've developed better Opium since Marx's day. Capitalism is inventive like that.

 

[pmv]

...deleted for being written in a bad temper...

 

[ch33zw1z]

Christianity to me is kind of strange. Jesus came to forgive everyone's sins? So, you can kind of do whatever you want and on Sunday have all of it forgiven? I went to church a lot as a child and still don't get that.

Not exactly, unless youre Catholic. This is a topic discussed within religious denominations, and I went to school with children raised on differing beliefs on this topic.

The idea is to admit to our flawed humanity, and live your life the way Jesus would. God sent his son as an example to follow after centuries of God from the old testament smiting those whose faithed waivered. At some point he must've realized how imperfect he actually created us.

Not for Catholics though, imxp, they loosely believed in that in exchange for physical penance of some kind to atone for sins. And what's worse, they installed a barrier between you and God, aka a priest. This wasn't ok because when God sent his son to earth, the idea was that he was your path to God instead of a middleman such as a priest.

Anyhow, I have a better teaching for everyone. You have one life to live. Live it to it's full extent and enjoy the most of what it has to offer. Nobody knows what happens after life is done so don't take it for granted.

The Golden rule, if more people lived by that, the world would be unrecognizable compared to what were accustomed to.

 

[soulcougher73]

Not exactly, unless youre Catholic. This is a topic discussed within religious denominations, and I went to school with children raised on differing beliefs on this topic.

The idea is to admit to our flawed humanity, and live your life the way Jesus would. God sent his son as an example to follow after centuries of God from the old testament smiting those whose faithed waivered. At some point he must've realized how imperfect he actually created us.

Not for Catholics though, imxp, they loosely believed in that in exchange for physical penance of some kind to atone for sins. And what's worse, they installed a barrier between you and God, aka a priest. This wasn't ok because when God sent his son to earth, the idea was that he was your path to God instead of a middleman such as a priest.



The Golden rule, if more people lived by that, the world would be unrecognizable compared to what were accustomed to.

Priest = Insurance sales man?

 

[Atreus21]

Have you or your sources accounted for the behavior of theists towards atheists and other religious minorities?

Anecdotally I know personally and from other friends and family members that as children we were ostracized by the majority Christians. Friends who would no longer play with us once their parents found out we didn’t go to church or the right church. Former friends telling us we’re going to hell or the occasional late night threatening phone call.

Being ostracized in this way can increase suicide rates in children, no?

Do you have anything besides anecdotes to back up this theory? Because my anecdotal evidence from the deep south paints a starkly different picture.

Further, are you going to claim that atheists in secular european countries, where suicide rates are truly problematic, and at the same time report quite low religiosity, are oppressed by evil Christians?

 

[nakedfrog]

Sometimes I wonder if there's any such thing as an honest atheist.

You have problems.

 

[pmv]

lol "level of inequality"? That's a silly thing to try and measure. If everyone in a country is poor, then what is it? I'd love to see this correlation you're talking about.

Then you add 1 rich person on a hill and it magically changes overnight to "economic inequality" instead?

I couldn't find the specific paper that first made this point, but the general theme re-occurs all over the place, most of which may trace back to that paper. Religion doesn't correlate all that well to wealth/poverty, overwhelmingly because the US and China are huge outliers when looked at that way. But it does seem to correlate much better to inequality within a society.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...osity-of-public-office-holders_fig1_258130345
https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13...ountry/pf-06-13-18_religiouscommitment-01-04/
https://religionnews.com/2014/07/10/inequality-usa-outlier-religiosity-economics/
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/epiphenom/2009/07/why-some-countries-are-more-religious.html

I also found one paper trying to claim the causation runs the other way, that religion means more charity and that charity is somehow not properly included in measures of inequality. I don't think it was coincidence that that paper seemed to be by ethnically-Turkish authors, Turkey being a conservative Muslim country which is unusually pro-free-market and right-wing on economic issues for such cultures. It's like the Muslim version of the US Christian right. And I don't buy that argument, charity is not an answer to inequality.

 

[Muse]

Have you or your sources accounted for the behavior of theists towards atheists and other religious minorities?

Anecdotally I know personally and from other friends and family members that as children we were ostracized by the majority Christians. Friends who would no longer play with us once their parents found out we didn’t go to church or the right church. Former friends telling us we’re going to hell or the occasional late night threatening phone call.

Being ostracized in this way can increase suicide rates in children, no?

I think that any kind of discrimination is horrible... for everyone, really. Tolerance is the beginning of humanism. The lack of it breeds little but stupidity and unhappiness, ultimately.

 

[Muse]

If parents taught their children according to the actual Bible teachings they'd respect everyone they encounter because the word says to think of everyone else as greater than yourself.

PS: My kids respect everyone!

That's an interesting perspective there!

 

[Jhhnn]

It's important to remember that the God of the Israelites was a mean mofo. Banished Adam & Eve from the garden of Eden. Sent plague & pestilence against the Egyptians. Drowned their army in the red sea. Destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah. Destroyed the fortifications of Jericho so that the Israelites could slaughter them. Threatens eternal torment for all those who violate his commandments. It ultimately morphed in the whole Kill for Jesus thing with the Crusades & the Reformation. Catholicism was an instrument of oppression & control throughout the expansion of the Holy Roman Empire along with the Spanish & Portuguese subjugation of Latin America.

Today? God must have wanted Trump to be President because there's no earthly reason for it, is there?