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Religion
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Shira: "If you say you don't believe in the God I imagine doesn't exist, then (assuming both that you are being truthful and are aware of what I imagine [that second part is a pretty big assumption]) neither of us believes in that God. So it's not only possible, but very likely you could say that. In fact, I can think of VAST numbers of Gods I imagine don't exist, and I'll bet you don't believe in any of them either (for example, that 5,000-pound, green, elephant-like entity)."
M: Exactly. All the Gods that people imagine don't exist are not the one who does. If this is also true of the God, gods people do believe to exist, I can't say.
S: "And I completely agree that not imagining a God does not mean he/she/it doesn't exist. In fact, if a God does exist, I believe it's almost certain that NONE of us is imagining exactly that God. I mean, what are the odds any of us have got the description completely pegged?"
M: Exactly what I was getting at about imagined gods.
S: "Finally, since I believe it's almost impossible for any two people to hold EXACTLY the same concept - not just of what God is, but of anything - I am (almost) certain that EVERYONE (including you) who believes in God, believes in a God that neither I nor anyone else (precisely) imagines."
M: How precise had you wanted to be? Close is good in horseshoes, no?
S: So you see, we completely agree (except that complete agreement is probably impossible).
M: Isn't that the truth, I mean probably.
From my previous post on a different question I made inference to my belief that God is not a concept but 'the state of being', 'Beingness', maybe we could say. Any two people who ARE, are not conscious of the same events, but they share the identical state of being. To enter into the 'Being of God' is to enter into the flow of His Will.
M: Exactly. All the Gods that people imagine don't exist are not the one who does. If this is also true of the God, gods people do believe to exist, I can't say.
S: "And I completely agree that not imagining a God does not mean he/she/it doesn't exist. In fact, if a God does exist, I believe it's almost certain that NONE of us is imagining exactly that God. I mean, what are the odds any of us have got the description completely pegged?"
M: Exactly what I was getting at about imagined gods.
S: "Finally, since I believe it's almost impossible for any two people to hold EXACTLY the same concept - not just of what God is, but of anything - I am (almost) certain that EVERYONE (including you) who believes in God, believes in a God that neither I nor anyone else (precisely) imagines."
M: How precise had you wanted to be? Close is good in horseshoes, no?
S: So you see, we completely agree (except that complete agreement is probably impossible).
M: Isn't that the truth, I mean probably.
From my previous post on a different question I made inference to my belief that God is not a concept but 'the state of being', 'Beingness', maybe we could say. Any two people who ARE, are not conscious of the same events, but they share the identical state of being. To enter into the 'Being of God' is to enter into the flow of His Will.
Isn't there a danger here of saying good=nothingness? Good is not evil, and if everything that can be conceived is evil then it would be tempting to say that good is nothing, when in fact good is the positive which we cannot understand only against which is the evil that we do understand evil. If good is the truth, and thought is evil, is it right to say that the truth is the absence of thought? What would be the use of doing so?
But the idea of grace is dependent on this negativity, since grace is the good gift to the evil world; without sin grace is not grace but merit. So grace was not prior to the fall (without anticipating the fall). And in our situation if we experience negativity, and feel that "we are the worst", we can only do so by seeing the good against which we are seen to be the worst. (Otherwise our experience is not negativity but some feeling that cannot be interpreted as true negativity.) So in fact we must be under grace in order to see this negativity. So rather than being a fall from grace, we have a fall into grace! As Paul said, as sin increased, grace increased. Thus we must be always repentant, and at the same time faithful and hopeful.
An apt image!
I do. These are all aspects of death in the world which show the absence of the divine life, or in other (easily misinterpreted) words the judgement against the world. The world, considered against the life that is offered to us, is entirely dead, and these things are demonstrative of that. To me.
The one who is repentant must have known what good is in order to repent, and only thereby seen he needs forgiveness. The atheist who is no worse and no better than the rapist or anyone else must also repent and seek grace, because no-one is good in himself, only by receiving the forgiveness of God. Goodness is not a human quality but something infinitely above us.
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Sorry, had to get to bed.
Sure, I'm LDS (Mormon). It's not necessarily 3 heavens, but 1 heaven with 3 parts. Does that make sense?
The Bible, we believe, references this in 1 Cor. 15:40-42, though I'm sure others would disagree. We believe very few people who live on the Earth currently will go to what it considered hell. Most all will go to one of these 3 degrees of glory within heaven, based upon their acceptance and worthiness. This accounts for the right that people have to accept the Gospel and to accept Christ. If they don't, they simply won't receive all that he offers. The won't go to a bad place, but they simply won't go to the best that he offers. If they do, they have the chance to receive all that Christ has to offer them.
Kind of makes sense. If you don't believe in Christ, why would you want what he has to offer? Yet regardless of whether you believe in him or not, he still loves you and wants what's best for you. Which is why we believe Heaven is set up the way I proposed. There's obviously more to it than what I've stated, but it would take me a much longer time and require a lot more understanding for me to present it to you. Hope that doesn't sound offensive.
Does that help?
CSMR: Isn't there a danger here of saying good=nothingness?
M: I do not see this danger but then again I did not say that good=nothingness, as far as I can tell. Basically I was not trying to us nothingness as no thing, but the absence of ego. I think a state of awareness of ones true nature can emerge when the ego disappears. I think the ego is an artificial self we created to cut us off from who we really are.
C: Good is not evil, and if everything that can be conceived is evil then it would be tempting to say that good is nothing, when in fact good is the positive which we cannot understand only against which is the evil that we do understand evil.
M: Hehe, this sentence is one I'm not sure I understand. I was trying to say, and I don't know if what I will say now will be an clear but here goes: Good and evil are the product of duality that arises with the invention of language. The word is not the thing described. A treatise on roses will never equal a rose. Words are symbols and can represent things that do not exist, things such as good and evil. Good and evil are concepts loaded with emotions that are repressed. We are unconscious of the factors in our lives that put meaning to good and evil. We were punished for doing wrong and we internalized the message that it was us, not the action, that was wrong. For out 'sins' love and nurture were withheld or threatened to be withheld. We were co-opted by this pressure and made to conform. Now we are the keepers of our own prison and not only are we not free, but we don't even see the bars. And we are prisoners of duality, forced by a tremendous fear of threat, to believe. It is what makes us ache for the good and despise evil, but what each of us believes is good and evil can be almost anything. What it always is is the denial that what we believe is evil is our real selves. Christ brought forgiveness for sin and a message of forgiveness of others so that the attitude of forgiveness could extend to yourself. We are absolutely sure we are evil but each of us and Jesus are of One.
C: If good is the truth, and thought is evil, is it right to say that the truth is the absence of thought? What would be the use of doing so?
M: There is only being without end. Duality ends when you 'are'. We are not our thoughts but more like the silence on which they are written. Thought is fear. Thought is the replaying of the past. Thought is dead. Thought is powered by feelings we wish to mask with our thoughts. Thought arises from and maintains the ego. When you come to the end of thought it dies. This is why we must know the answer to the sound of one hand clapping. As a child you knew the answer and then you were killed. We don't what that to happen again. So we build a fortress of weapons to defend, or should I say smother our soul. We are terrified of pure being because once we were being and we had no defense. But everything we fear has already happened.
So truth is a state of spontaneous being. Good and evil are a product of thought.
C: But the idea of grace is dependent on this negativity, since grace is the good gift to the evil world; without sin grace is not grace but merit. So grace was not prior to the fall (without anticipating the fall). And in our situation if we experience negativity, and feel that "we are the worst", we can only do so by seeing the good against which we are seen to be the worst. (Otherwise our experience is not negativity but some feeling that cannot be interpreted as true negativity.) So in fact we must be under grace in order to see this negativity. So rather than being a fall from grace, we have a fall into grace! As Paul said, as sin increased, grace increased. Thus we must be always repentant, and at the same time faithful and hopeful.
M: This sounds interesting but I am not sure I get it so rather than trying to figure out exactly what you may mean here let me restate what I think in my own way:
The ego is starving for life because it is a false being. Sin and lusts are about filling this emptiness within. We are separated from Oneness by being imprisoned in a belief in the reality of this false self as the only reality there is. The ego lusts for everything including enlightenment, God, religious truth, etc. But the ego can never have any of these things. Separate cannot enter. The path to truth takes you through ego death. This is why every mythic hero finds the prize by a journey through hell. We have to suffer the crucifixion. The good news, of course, is that we already have and that we were never guilty of anything because there never was any sin. To die now is only to remember we are dead. But the notion of faith and hope are tricky, in my opinion. There should be no faith in and there is no hope for the ego, in my opinion. To have faith in that is to strengthen illusion. We feel that we are evil and we are not. If faith and hope bring a grace that transcends that feeling that is a wonderful thing. But the self hate is tremendous and its denial would require a, for me, unbelievably powerful faith. I understand better surrender to hopelessness.
I wanted to prove there is a God to myself and to the world to cover with meaning what was surely otherwise the 'cold blind indifference of the universe', a universe where good and evil were and are all the same. I wanted to provide a reason for man to be good and I failed. My remorseless insistence on proof destroyed everything. The universe is completely without meaning and good and evil are all the same. I fought against this with every fiber of my being. My life went completely black. I knew then I would never know happiness again.
Well I read some in those times and discovered to my complete rage that the Zen Masters were saying the same thing, except with a big smile on their faces. How did these arrogant fools not know that meaning is vital to life.
One night, deep deep deep in thought I realized something I had missed. If the universe is meaningless, so is the search for meaning. I had not seen that I was holding on to the illusion that life requires a meaning. Bingo, thought ended with a blast of wind on the house and I was only awareness of that wind. Grace for me was the result of a shift in consciousness caused by the wind. It's a mystery to me really, and that's about the best I can say.
But in the infinite silence of being I saw that my heart was alive. Love is without rhyme or reason or need for any meaning. It is what is left when everything else that can leave has left. Now in Zen it seems that the Masters have made this an 'every minute' thing. 😀
M: I do not see this danger but then again I did not say that good=nothingness, as far as I can tell. Basically I was not trying to us nothingness as no thing, but the absence of ego. I think a state of awareness of ones true nature can emerge when the ego disappears. I think the ego is an artificial self we created to cut us off from who we really are.
C: Good is not evil, and if everything that can be conceived is evil then it would be tempting to say that good is nothing, when in fact good is the positive which we cannot understand only against which is the evil that we do understand evil.
M: Hehe, this sentence is one I'm not sure I understand. I was trying to say, and I don't know if what I will say now will be an clear but here goes: Good and evil are the product of duality that arises with the invention of language. The word is not the thing described. A treatise on roses will never equal a rose. Words are symbols and can represent things that do not exist, things such as good and evil. Good and evil are concepts loaded with emotions that are repressed. We are unconscious of the factors in our lives that put meaning to good and evil. We were punished for doing wrong and we internalized the message that it was us, not the action, that was wrong. For out 'sins' love and nurture were withheld or threatened to be withheld. We were co-opted by this pressure and made to conform. Now we are the keepers of our own prison and not only are we not free, but we don't even see the bars. And we are prisoners of duality, forced by a tremendous fear of threat, to believe. It is what makes us ache for the good and despise evil, but what each of us believes is good and evil can be almost anything. What it always is is the denial that what we believe is evil is our real selves. Christ brought forgiveness for sin and a message of forgiveness of others so that the attitude of forgiveness could extend to yourself. We are absolutely sure we are evil but each of us and Jesus are of One.
C: If good is the truth, and thought is evil, is it right to say that the truth is the absence of thought? What would be the use of doing so?
M: There is only being without end. Duality ends when you 'are'. We are not our thoughts but more like the silence on which they are written. Thought is fear. Thought is the replaying of the past. Thought is dead. Thought is powered by feelings we wish to mask with our thoughts. Thought arises from and maintains the ego. When you come to the end of thought it dies. This is why we must know the answer to the sound of one hand clapping. As a child you knew the answer and then you were killed. We don't what that to happen again. So we build a fortress of weapons to defend, or should I say smother our soul. We are terrified of pure being because once we were being and we had no defense. But everything we fear has already happened.
So truth is a state of spontaneous being. Good and evil are a product of thought.
C: But the idea of grace is dependent on this negativity, since grace is the good gift to the evil world; without sin grace is not grace but merit. So grace was not prior to the fall (without anticipating the fall). And in our situation if we experience negativity, and feel that "we are the worst", we can only do so by seeing the good against which we are seen to be the worst. (Otherwise our experience is not negativity but some feeling that cannot be interpreted as true negativity.) So in fact we must be under grace in order to see this negativity. So rather than being a fall from grace, we have a fall into grace! As Paul said, as sin increased, grace increased. Thus we must be always repentant, and at the same time faithful and hopeful.
M: This sounds interesting but I am not sure I get it so rather than trying to figure out exactly what you may mean here let me restate what I think in my own way:
The ego is starving for life because it is a false being. Sin and lusts are about filling this emptiness within. We are separated from Oneness by being imprisoned in a belief in the reality of this false self as the only reality there is. The ego lusts for everything including enlightenment, God, religious truth, etc. But the ego can never have any of these things. Separate cannot enter. The path to truth takes you through ego death. This is why every mythic hero finds the prize by a journey through hell. We have to suffer the crucifixion. The good news, of course, is that we already have and that we were never guilty of anything because there never was any sin. To die now is only to remember we are dead. But the notion of faith and hope are tricky, in my opinion. There should be no faith in and there is no hope for the ego, in my opinion. To have faith in that is to strengthen illusion. We feel that we are evil and we are not. If faith and hope bring a grace that transcends that feeling that is a wonderful thing. But the self hate is tremendous and its denial would require a, for me, unbelievably powerful faith. I understand better surrender to hopelessness.
I wanted to prove there is a God to myself and to the world to cover with meaning what was surely otherwise the 'cold blind indifference of the universe', a universe where good and evil were and are all the same. I wanted to provide a reason for man to be good and I failed. My remorseless insistence on proof destroyed everything. The universe is completely without meaning and good and evil are all the same. I fought against this with every fiber of my being. My life went completely black. I knew then I would never know happiness again.
Well I read some in those times and discovered to my complete rage that the Zen Masters were saying the same thing, except with a big smile on their faces. How did these arrogant fools not know that meaning is vital to life.
One night, deep deep deep in thought I realized something I had missed. If the universe is meaningless, so is the search for meaning. I had not seen that I was holding on to the illusion that life requires a meaning. Bingo, thought ended with a blast of wind on the house and I was only awareness of that wind. Grace for me was the result of a shift in consciousness caused by the wind. It's a mystery to me really, and that's about the best I can say.
But in the infinite silence of being I saw that my heart was alive. Love is without rhyme or reason or need for any meaning. It is what is left when everything else that can leave has left. Now in Zen it seems that the Masters have made this an 'every minute' thing. 😀
The dictionary definition of it...
Being positive or desirable in nature; not bad or poor
Having the qualities that are desirable or distinguishing in a particular thing
Superior to the average; satisfactory
Worthy of respect; honorable
I believe the average person is a good person.
blackangst1
Lifer
GFT
shira
Diamond Member
About five years ago, the answer actually came to me. I even posted it on AT last year, but I don't think anyone was paying attention (they were deep in non-thought, I guess).
I imagined myself in a darkened room, pondering the imponderable. I saw a slightly mischievous grin appear on my face along with that classic look of "How dumb can I be!" At which point my open left hand rapidly rose from my side and slapped against my farhead: The sound of one hand clapping.
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
😕
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
What does GFT mean?
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Good to know. Thanks!
engineereeyore
Platinum Member
Welcome cscpianoman. Here's a :laugh: compliments of m0ee0m. 😉
I have been told this being an Agnostic. But my take is I have to be truthful to myself, to do otherwise would be hypocritical, and of course if there is a god he would know this 🙂
Far too many people follow the religion they choose (or whatever religion chooses them) and not honest with themselves, just doesn't work for me. Deep down I don't believe and will not pretend to.
So free will = all the random bad things that happen in peoples lives. I simply cannot believe that my wife, who was a good person (and was Christian) got cancer and died leaving behind a 1 year old son because of some bad choice she made in life, or to test myself, a friend, or a family member. I heard this kind of stuff alot after she died, because of course there has to be a reason for everything.
I accept that we live in a sometimes cruel environment, with sometimes cruel people, where ****** can happen to anyone.
themusgrat
Golden Member
Salvation is not dependant on how few sins you commit, it is all about knowing Jesus. One sin is too many for God to accept, so even if the atheist leads a relatively good life, it is relatively wrong to God's standard, or absolutely wrong. The average person may be somewhat good, but again, one sin... To Moonbeam, no one really understands why good is right and evil is wrong. But God created our idea of these thiings, or attitudes, and I intend to find out about them. In a way, it is us, and not the sin, that is wrong. What is sin? It is a choice, so whoever made the choice is the wrong factor in the equation. And also, you reasoning behind why we despise evil is right. But without God, there is no universal standard for that evil. Thought does not have to be evil. Are good and evil really the products of thought? I would disagree, I think. Where did this come from?
" The good news, of course, is that we already have and that we were never guilty of anything because there never was any sin."
" The good news, of course, is that we already have and that we were never guilty of anything because there never was any sin."
themusgrat
Golden Member
No, free will means that since God did not make us robots, we have the choice to do right and wrong. There is always a reason for dying. I remember when one of my best friends died in a motorcycle accident, I asked this. I didn't really get an answer for why, only God saying, "Trust in Me, my grace is sufficient." If someone has sinned even once, they die. It is like we are tainted to what we were never meant to be, sinners. Whether your wife died early or late, she would have died. I don't mean to be stupid about this, but I'm not sure how death is ever easy. In fact, I think that it is equally hard at all times, only sometimes more timely, sometimes not.
themusgrat
Golden Member
When I ask God a question, I never get a direct answer. Never God speaking to me, or stuff like that. I actually think it's hilarious that people claim that God has appeared to them. If so, they would be dead. Asking for that is asking to die, though in a glorious way. lol I think about things, and when I ask a question, an answer usually comes from the Bible. There is a reason that it is called the Word of God. Or sometimes, someone will randomly say something that is relevant, and I will know that I have my answer. But like I said, it usually is from the Bible.
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