Religion vs. Reason

[imported_hscorpio]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: hscorpio
I was not attacking you. I was attacking the method in which you attempted to discredit me without addressing my statements.

If your statements are posted as a response to mine but don't actually address my premises, then I have little recourse but to tell you why your position is wrong by forging a different argument. I'm not sure how giving a bit of my personal history is an attack on you.

There are plenty of examples, you should be asking yourself if there are any examples of major modern scientific fields that were not in some way contemplated by ancient philosophers. Does the term 'Natural Philosophy' ring a bell? When Aristotle contemplated everything in Physics, he was doing so in the realm of philosophy. Today those same ideas he thought about philosophically are now studied under the scientific method in their respective fields. Your confusion lies in the definitions, I hope, because I'm sure you must realize what I'm saying is correct but are just being hard headed. What I mean is that what Aristotle termed metaphysics is what we generally refer to as philosophy today since nearly every other remaining branch of Aristotelian philosophy now falls under what we term science.

Aristotle was the first to envision the idea of what we now call analytical mechanics - that the true mechanism for physical interactions is through energy rather than forces. It is true that there is a rather 'philosophical' assumption wrapped in the primary premise of variational calculus (I've even had a professor tell me that a course in variational calculus is 'good for the soul' ). However, this does not imply that Aristotle's method of analyzing scientific principles was the same as his method for pondering abstractions. In fact, he was one of the, if not THE, first to make the distinction between the questions of how and why - the questions of science and philosophy. Simply thinking of things in an abstract form does not qualify as philosophy, though it took Aristotle some time to realize the distinction.

You said I was wrong without adressing why you think I was wrong or offering any contradicting proof. Then you implied (falsely) I probably never have studied the subject while suggesting your credit hours give you credibility I lack. I suggest you let your words stand on their own merit and you back up your claims.

Aristotle made no such distinction between science and philosophy. He made philosophical distinctions, science (as we know it) did not exist. Everything he pondered was based on observation and reasoning alone and was in the philosophical realm at the time. Why a stone moves when someone pushes it was a philosophical excercise for Aristotle, for most of us it is purely scientific and knowing how tells us why.

 

[jack bauer]

http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=38&threadid=1895851

 

[Used Rugs]

Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within.

Hehe, can you please tell me what the statement means?

 

[Used Rugs]

Its from Dune... It means that religion over time, destroys societies. By limiting science, free thought, tolerance.

 

[spelletrader]

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within.

In reality, it is humanity under the guise of a twisted version of religion that rots civilization from within. The majority of religions are mostly harmless, people that use the faithful to their own end are not. Religion is an easy scapegoat, but if it were not that the manipulator('s) would find something else to use.

I am sure someday atheism (or any other ideological system) will be used the same way as religion has been used in the past.

/theological agnostic that says "believe what you like and enjoy your life"

 

[Drift3r]

 

[spelletrader]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Sweet, care to elaborate?

 

[fitzov]

atheists are the most zealous.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Its from Dune... It means that religion over time, destroys societies. By limiting science, free thought, tolerance.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor
and his stooges by the force of the Will of God. Nobody can stand against the will of God.

 

[spelletrader]

Originally posted by: fitzov
atheists are the most zealous.

I do not find this to be true. I have never had anyone knock on my door to tell me that there isn't a God. The most sarcastic and pessimistic? Perhaps.

My wife comes from a family of Jehovahs Witnesses, now they are zealous.

P.S. If you ever want to get rid of Witnesses (without being rude) just tell them that you are disavowed and you are not ready to speak to an elder.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: spelletrader

Originally posted by: fitzov
atheists are the most zealous.

I do not find this to be true. I have never had anyone knock on my door to tell me that there isn't a God. The most sarcastic and pessimistic? Perhaps.

My wife comes from a family of Jehovahs Witnesses, now they are zealous.

P.S. If you ever want to get rid of Witnesses (without being rude) just tell them that you are disavowed and you are not ready to speak to an elder.

Isn't their fanaticism the result of there only being 144 thousand spots in heaven and the millions of witnesses are fighting like cats and dogs to be among them?

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Its from Dune... It means that religion over time, destroys societies. By limiting science, free thought, tolerance.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor
and his stooges by the force of the Will of God. Nobody can stand against the will of God.

So, the people of Dune are the will of God? The people are god(s)?

 

[spelletrader]

[/quote]

Isn't their fanaticism the result of there only being 144 thousand spots in heaven and the millions of witnesses are fighting like cats and dogs to be among them?[/quote]

Yep, something like that. Don't get me wrong, they are extremely nice people (at least the ones I have met were) but they believe some things that just strike me as very very strange.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Its from Dune... It means that religion over time, destroys societies. By limiting science, free thought, tolerance.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor
and his stooges by the force of the Will of God. Nobody can stand against the will of God.

So, the people of Dune are the will of God? The people are god(s)?

No, the Fremen submitted to the Will of God, were one with His will and could not lose. You can have some real fun here.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
Its from Dune... It means that religion over time, destroys societies. By limiting science, free thought, tolerance.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor
and his stooges by the force of the Will of God. Nobody can stand against the will of God.

So, the people of Dune are the will of God? The people are god(s)?

No, the Fremen submitted to the Will of God, were one with His will and could not lose. You can have some real fun here.

Interesting, thanks.

 

[Used Rugs]

 

[Used Rugs]

Please stop mixing God and Religion.
My quote does not say god brings down empires it said religion does. Yes the quote is from dune.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Used Rugs

Please stop mixing God and Religion.
My quote does not say god brings down empires it said religion does. Yes the quote is from dune.

Does it really? I seem to recall that it was the religion that overthrew the rotting Emperor

My point, my dear friend, is that the religion of the people of Dune brought down a corrupt empire and that was for the good, not that evil religion causes the fall of societies as your seemed to think according to how I see the context of your original quote.

It is true religion that brings true justice because the truly religious ARE ONE with the Will of God.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: fitzov
atheists are the most zealous.

Lol... right. How many organized atheist movements do you see running around in the U.S?

EDIT: Some communists want to force a religion free society on us, but thats all I can think of.

 

[mycarisolderthanme]

Thank you for the link. It was a thoughtful, well spoken speech.

 

[sumyungai]

I find it baffling that some people chose to believe in something that cannot be proven and then go and restrict their own freedom (ie. can't eat pork, have to eat food that's been blessed by a rabi, can't eat meat, can't have sex before marriage, yadda yadda yadda).

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: sumyungai
I find it baffling that some people chose to believe in something that cannot be proven and then go and restrict their own freedom (ie. can't eat pork, have to eat food that's been blessed by a rabi, can't eat meat, can't have sex before marriage, yadda yadda yadda).

I find it baffling that Jesus willingly went up on the cross to die so you could be forgiven. What the hell was he thinking, that you were worth spit? No sane animal would ever give up a stitch of hedonistic pleasure to help him die to himself by lessening the grip of his ego, now would he.

 

[MiniDoom]

Originally posted by: sumyungai
I find it baffling that some people chose to believe in something that cannot be proven and then go and restrict their own freedom (ie. can't eat pork, have to eat food that's been blessed by a rabi, can't eat meat, can't have sex before marriage, yadda yadda yadda).

Nothing wrong with giving praise to jah for the animal?s life you take to feed your family. One should respect the earth and all of its animals for they keep us well and give us the energy to work.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: sumyungai
I find it baffling that some people chose to believe in something that cannot be proven and then go and restrict their own freedom (ie. can't eat pork, have to eat food that's been blessed by a rabi, can't eat meat, can't have sex before marriage, yadda yadda yadda).

I find it baffling that Jesus willingly went up on the cross to die so you could be forgiven. What the hell was he thinking, that you were worth spit? No sane animal would ever give up a stitch of hedonistic pleasure to help him die to himself by lessening the grip of his ego, now would he.

Maybe not, but that's what's so great about not having the best records dating back 2000 years: you can wait a few decades for it to blow over, and make a good story up that will help captivate the masses. Saul of Tarsus FTW!