Religion vs. Reason

[StepUp]

There was a thread floating around in P&N about what you are reading now, and one of the books I was reading, The End of Faith talks about the incompatabilities of religion both today and yesterday, citing current events from the current conflicts in the Middle East, to the Inquisition. He also discusses the problem with being a religious moderate as opposed to a religious fundamentalist.

Now, I realize that everyone here is from different walks of life, and prescribes to different relgious beliefs, or no beliefts at all, but I would implore everyone to take 20 minutes out of a day and to watch this video, as a lot of what he says is playing out in front of us right now with the further escalations in the middle east.

The video is him speaking at Idea City Conference, 2005 (ironically, he's introduced to the conference by a man named Moses). And just a warning, a lot of what he says you may find offensive or contrary to what you believe, and he also lets the audience know this in the crowd. Still, I would hope that those who do decide to watch can have an intelligent debate in the forums on the matter, as I see it being an issue that everyone needs to talk about, and it's something we simply turn the other cheek to. Happy viewing!

Sam Harris, Idea City '05 Conference

 

[Moonbeam]

Mulla Nasrudin was walking along with a new disciple when a dervish in strange robes passed by. He pointed at the sky, indicating to the Mullah that there is one truth and it covers us all. The Mullah held up a rope expressing the notion that yes, true, and ordinary man tries to find it by means as foolish as using a rope to climb into the sky. The student looked at the dervish and saw a mad man and the Mulla threatening to tie him up if he tired anything funny.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Mulla Nasrudin was walking along with a new disciple when a dervish in strange robes passed by. He pointed at the sky, indicating to the Mullah that there is one truth and it covers us all. The Mullah held up a rope expressing the notion that yes, true, and ordinary man tries to find it by means as foolish as using a rope to climb into the sky. The student looked at the dervish and saw a mad man and the Mulla threatening to tie him up if he tired anything funny.

Are you an Athiest Minister?

 

[straightalker]

People believe what they are convinced is real. That's a basic right of existence as well as a basic human function. Like sitting in a chair takes faith and belief that that chair will not collapse on you.

Religions are a complex thing. Where they becomes a problem is when a dogma is created that condemns others who exist outside of a particular religion to death or bodily harm.

I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in. Just because there does exist certain factions within certain religions such as the Jesuits, radical Islam and other religious groups who persecute others of a different belief.

People should just recognize we as human beings cannot help but believe what we are convinced is real to us. I don't believe Governments on Earth should be Theocracies. They should be small and neutral. Tasked with national defense and other basic functions only. So people are free to believe what they choose to believe in and worship how they choose.

Governments should be created to build the basic structures for building a peaceful society. And do nothing more than set a fair and square playing field for everyone.

 

[ButterflyHugs]

Originally posted by: straightalker

I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

I don't think that you actually comprehend what is being said. I have never read, and maybe you can link me to a thread/post that proves me wrong, that any "athiest" or agnostic wants to take away anyone's rights with regard to practicing their religion.

What I have read is a very strong belief and conviction of taking away the ability for the government to force certain religious beliefs upon the populous. That, in no way, is trying to restrict/eliminate a person's right or ability to practice their faith. It just means that everyone else isn't forced or compelled to practice a faith that they don't necessarily subscribe to either.

 

[GoPackGo]

We all assume that we are not a figment of some little boys imagination locked away in room somewhere inside the Twilight Zone.

 

[AnitaPeterson]

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

 

[Mean MrMustard]

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Examples?

Give me just one.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Mulla Nasrudin was walking along with a new disciple when a dervish in strange robes passed by. He pointed at the sky, indicating to the Mullah that there is one truth and it covers us all. The Mullah held up a rope expressing the notion that yes, true, and ordinary man tries to find it by means as foolish as using a rope to climb into the sky. The student looked at the dervish and saw a mad man and the Mulla threatening to tie him up if he tired anything funny.

Are you an Athiest Minister?

I believe that humanity is dying of thirst while running around in the rain looking for bottled water.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

I read The End of Faith when it came out. It's an extremely well-written book full of thoughtfulness.

 

[Used Rugs]

I have a couple quotes I like, cant remember where I heard them. Here goes...


You know your god is man made when he hates the same people you do.

"Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within." Dune

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
I have a couple quotes I like, cant remember where I heard them. Here goes...


You know your god is man made when he hates the same people you do.

"Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within." Dune

Something tells me you don't understand that second quote.

"Nothing can stand before the Will of God". Dune

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
I have a couple quotes I like, cant remember where I heard them. Here goes...


You know your god is man made when he hates the same people you do.

"Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within." Dune

Something tells me you don't understand that second quote.

"Nothing can stand before the Will of God". Dune

Since when does God = religion?

 

[novon]

belief that there should be no belief is still a blief.

and belief in something means there is no room for truth.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: Donny Baker

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Examples?

Give me just one.

In their eyes the fact that evolution gets taught in school, but not ID is an assault on their religion (ie: they don't like the fact that we teach actual science in science classrooms).

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Gigantopithecus

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Used Rugs
I have a couple quotes I like, cant remember where I heard them. Here goes...


You know your god is man made when he hates the same people you do.

"Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within." Dune

Something tells me you don't understand that second quote.

"Nothing can stand before the Will of God". Dune

Since when does God = religion?

Something tells me you don't understand my point. Please provide me with your interpretation of:

"Religion time and time again brings down empires rotting them from within." Dune

which I felt the poster who quoted it originally is possibly misunderstanding. Then you can tell me how what I said leads to the conclusion that I equate religion with God, if you would please.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in. Just because there does exist certain factions within certain religions such as the Jesuits, radical Islam and other religious groups who persecute others of a different belief.

Huh? Maybe you can explain what the Jesuits do to persecute those with different beliefs. I'm not a Jesuit, nor have any affiliation with them, but I've never heard this claim before.

 

[Stunt]

First off; novon is correct, not believing in any higher power or supernatural is just as narrow minded as any hardcore religious person. Neither 'side' of the debate has obvious evidence supporting a lack of, or existance of a 'god'.

That being said, I consider "science" or "reason" to be a completely separate issue relative to religion. You see, science describes what is and how things work through observation and measurement. It then models this behaviour in the form of complex mathematical equations. Unfortunately that's where the buck stops, science has and never will be able to explain how the physical world was created. This should be no surprise; in mathematics as you dig deeper...things become more abstract, an artform, almost a visionary approach to explain the unexplainable. Science and religion will be or are the same way; some things science just will not be able to explain through logic and reason...religion will try to explain the unexplainable.

Religion should not be taken to be the evangelical sense...hell it shouldn't be taken in any formal sense at all. Religion is just a belief system, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having a different outlook on life. Most religious people firmly believe in reason and logical thinking, for the most part because they are totally independent as stated above. Sure there's issues where organized religion takes a stand on against the majority, but those minor differences are not something to go nuts over.

Overall religious values are very much in line with the mainstream. Don't kill/steal/hate/hurt/etc (the vest majority of our laws). Religion also advocates a lot of good; helping others, selflessness, donating, volunteering, a good family unit, caring for others, etc. Even though I'm not a religious person, I do feel religious people do help out in this world and do try to better themselves. Sure there are a lot of nutcases who need to be slapped, but there are ton of non-religious morons around. Basically all people are stupid, religion doesn't make you less reasonable and science vs. religion is a misperception.

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I believe that humanity is dying of thirst while running around in the rain looking for bottled water.

Indeed.

On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink."
John 7:37

 

[Trevelyan]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

What are "rights"? Where do you get your "rights"? Do you have the right to kill another man? Are "right wing conservative religious fundamentalist Bible thumper creationist prolife lunatic nutjobs" taking that right away from you by imposing their moral code on you? How do we decide what human rights are?

The truth is, unless your rights are absolute, you have no rights. Faith in human reason is a slap in the face to all of history, and what we decide human rights are change every generation. God is the only absoulte in this world, and he has given us our rights.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

What are "rights"? Where do you get your "rights"? Do you have the right to kill another man? Are "right wing conservative religious fundamentalist Bible thumper creationist prolife lunatic nutjobs" taking that right away from you by imposing their moral code on you? How do we decide what human rights are?

The truth is, unless your rights are absolute, you have no rights. Faith in human reason is a slap in the face to all of history, and what we decide human rights are change every generation. God is the only absoulte in this world, and he has given us our rights.

That is what the guy in the film said. The people who did the Inquisition were completely justified to kill people because those people threatened the absolute law of God and therefore earned their own deaths. See,the bad thing about absolute truth is that some people absolutely need to be dead and the ones that absolutely know this are the ones that will kill them. Others of us don't have such rules so we don't know who should die and so we're moral sloths who can't work up enough general excitement to go out and kill people. We're the 'live and let live secular humanists' infected by that horrible old disease of relativity.

 

[Atsoca]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

You just tried to discredit him by calling him a nut and you blame him for thinking that some people against religion are against the people that believe in them?

You?re asking him to not group all those against religion as atheist yet you?re grouping all religions as groups that try to take away the rights of others. In America religious groups have the right to try to change the law, just like gay people have the right to have their gay parades. Just because some of us don't encourage it doesn't mean that ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE go out there or would want to go out there to try to stop them from practicing their rights. Before you criticize him for grouping people as atheist please stop grouping those that practice their religion closely to those that don't.

 

[Tab]

Originally posted by: Trevelyan

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

What are "rights"? Where do you get your "rights"? Do you have the right to kill another man? Are "right wing conservative religious fundamentalist Bible thumper creationist prolife lunatic nutjobs" taking that right away from you by imposing their moral code on you? How do we decide what human rights are?

The truth is, unless your rights are absolute, you have no rights. Faith in human reason is a slap in the face to all of history, and what we decide human rights are change every generation. God is the only absoulte in this world, and he has given us our rights.

Okay, prove that God exsists, is the only absoutle in this world and God is male.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Atsoca

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: AnitaPeterson

Originally posted by: straightalker
I hear a considerable amount of chatter on this forum from the athiests who want to take away the rights of everyone else to believe in whatever they choose to believe in.

Paranoid much, zealot?

Yeah, he is the same nut the OP is talking about... any criticism of religion and they lose all comprehension and feel it is an attack on them...

Not only that, but most of the posters like the OP are NOT atheists.. you could be MANY things, including agnostic, and even religious and understand the point of the OP.... Unfortunately, since it is much easier to group people all together, they just ASSUME they are an atheist, so they could make another wild assumption like "they want to take away the rights of everyone else."

It is the RELIGIOUS groups that take away the rights of others and we could cite many many many examples... as others have challenged, name ONE "atheist" poster that has wanted to take away other's rights...

You just tried to discredit him by calling him a nut and you blame him for thinking that some people against religion are against the people that believe in them?

You?re asking him to not group all those against religion as atheist yet you?re grouping all religions as groups that try to take away the rights of others. In America religious groups have the right to try to change the law, just like gay people have the right to have their gay parades. Just because some of us don't encourage it doesn't mean that ALL RELIGIOUS PEOPLE go out there or would want to go out there to try to stop them from practicing their rights. Before you criticize him for grouping people as atheist please stop grouping those that practice their religion closely to those that don't.

Actually, I didn't.. pathetic try though!

I said that religious groups do.. I did not say that all religious groups do...