Religion tries to stick it to Biology.

VIAN

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Aug 22, 2003
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http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview...atid=38&threadid=1583010&enterthread=y

So I posted it in the wrong forum:

"http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0503/p01s04-legn.html

Here is a good question to ask your biology teacher:

? Evolution as a fact. Why are students told that Darwin's theory of evolution is a scientific fact - even though many of its claims are based on misrepresentations of the facts?

Answer: A counter question: Why are pupils told that the Bible is true when there is no way to interpret it? Why do religious people base all there knowledge on something so ambiguous as the Bible, with many different styles of writing and a few versions... Can they be further in the blind?

To be fair, science isn't all true and even proven ideas are everchanging. And of course a student would have to question the above evolution question. As a theory cannot be a fact. some teachers are just stupid, as I've met many English teachers that would tell me what was a word and what wasn't. If I knew then what I know now...

But, people have to realize that this is a SCIENCE class. Yes, ideas that came about through observation. Not ideas that came from the Bible. Not camp stories. Well documented materials that hopefully were untainted before the printing press.

Religions are too annoying. I am bothered by these type of people all the time - "Here take this pamphlet." I always say, "No, thank you." But maybe I should say, "I don't believe in GOD." So I could see the nasty looks on their faces. I would like for them to stop shoving it in my face. If it not for that, I might be a believer - shoving it in people's faces isn't the answer. This is article today shows a clear and desparate sign of those fanatics. "

Continue discussion here.
 

Kadarin

Lifer
Nov 23, 2001
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Why do religious people base all there knowledge on something so ambiguous as the Bible

Why, indeed. In most cases, the answer is because they were taught to by some authority figure(s) during childhood. In some cases, they "found Jesus" later in life, typically after some other difficulty like drug addiction (in a mode of behavior that replaces drug addiction with a similar addiction for religion). Religion requires faith, because there are NO direct, testable, repeatable facts that support the basic underlying core assumptions.

"Science" is not some entity that one "believes" in. It is the process by which we observe things that go on around us, and attempt by experimentation (use of the Scientific Method) to explain these things that we observe.
 

chrisms

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Mar 9, 2003
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I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?
 

sandorski

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Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

AFAIK none have been found, but how exactly does that negate the whole thing?

If a parent presents Report Cards for a Child, but Grades 4-6 are missing, does that mean the Child had no Education between Grade 3 and 7? Possibly, but unlikely.
 

Czar

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

dinos with feathers
 

chrisms

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Mar 9, 2003
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

AFAIK none have been found, but how exactly does that negate the whole thing?

If a parent presents Report Cards for a Child, but Grades 4-6 are missing, does that mean the Child had no Education between Grade 3 and 7? Possibly, but unlikely.

Well it seems unlikely to me that if evolution was a fact, that we would have no found transitonary fossils. I don't think it negates the entire concept, but I think it means maybe we shouldn't be so quick to accept it as a fact and negate any other ideas (creationism or anything else)
 

renierh

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May 25, 2004
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q]Originally posted by: Astaroth33

"Science" is not some entity that one "believes" in. It is the process by which we observe things that go on around us, and attempt by experimentation (use of the Scientific Method) to explain these things that we observe.[/quote]


exactly. science is not a number of solid truths we hold, it's a way of looking at the world around us, developed to seperate the facts from our subjective views. science is not about thinking we're allknowing; it's the exact opposite: it's about knowing that we need a stronger force then our subjective mind to unravel the world: logic! this lets us understand the world in small steps, instead of cheating ourselves by looking for a simple answer that "explains" it all..
 

jackschmittusa

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Apr 16, 2003
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What "transition species"? We did not evolve from modern apes, we had a common ancestor. The Lucy remains alone are complete enough to tell us that a short, hairy, small-brained, biped had evolved from a short, hairy, small-brained, quadraped.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Originally posted by: chrisms
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

AFAIK none have been found, but how exactly does that negate the whole thing?

If a parent presents Report Cards for a Child, but Grades 4-6 are missing, does that mean the Child had no Education between Grade 3 and 7? Possibly, but unlikely.

Well it seems unlikely to me that if evolution was a fact, that we would have no found transitonary fossils. I don't think it negates the entire concept, but I think it means maybe we shouldn't be so quick to accept it as a fact and negate any other ideas (creationism or anything else)

I can't agree. The Earth is a big place, they could be where no one has looked. It's also possible these "missing" links were not as numerous, thus harder to find or even no evidence survived.
 

dornick

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Jan 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: VIAN
Religions are too annoying. I am bothered by these type of people all the time - "Here take this pamphlet." I always say, "No, thank you." But maybe I should say, "I don't believe in GOD." So I could see the nasty looks on their faces. I would like for them to stop shoving it in my face. If it not for that, I might be a believer - shoving it in people's faces isn't the answer. This is article today shows a clear and desparate sign of those fanatics. "

If you have a problem with religious people trying to hand you pamphlets, you need to lighten up. If they're trying to force their beliefs on you, then you have a legitimate complaint.

But I'm thinking you didn't consider how religious people are forced to live in your secular culture, and it's a bit more than pieces paper shoved at you.
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: VIAN
Religions are too annoying. I am bothered by these type of people all the time - "Here take this pamphlet." I always say, "No, thank you." But maybe I should say, "I don't believe in GOD." So I could see the nasty looks on their faces. I would like for them to stop shoving it in my face. If it not for that, I might be a believer - shoving it in people's faces isn't the answer. This is article today shows a clear and desparate sign of those fanatics. "

If you have a problem with religious people trying to hand you pamphlets, you need to lighten up. If they're trying to force their beliefs on you, then you have a legitimate complaint.

But I'm thinking you didn't consider how religious people are forced to live in your secular culture, and it's a bit more than pieces paper shoved at you.
Please elaborate.

 

dornick

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Jan 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: VIAN
Religions are too annoying. I am bothered by these type of people all the time - "Here take this pamphlet." I always say, "No, thank you." But maybe I should say, "I don't believe in GOD." So I could see the nasty looks on their faces. I would like for them to stop shoving it in my face. If it not for that, I might be a believer - shoving it in people's faces isn't the answer. This is article today shows a clear and desparate sign of those fanatics. "

If you have a problem with religious people trying to hand you pamphlets, you need to lighten up. If they're trying to force their beliefs on you, then you have a legitimate complaint.

But I'm thinking you didn't consider how religious people are forced to live in your secular culture, and it's a bit more than pieces paper shoved at you.
Please elaborate.

I believe this says alot. And don't forget all the hoopla over the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. It's a gross distortion to say these things mean the government endorses Christianity. I mean, the biggest picture on the county seal is a Roman goddess. Does the US now support Roman paganism? Do Christians feel "unwelcome" because it's there?
 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: dornick
Originally posted by: VIAN
Religions are too annoying. I am bothered by these type of people all the time - "Here take this pamphlet." I always say, "No, thank you." But maybe I should say, "I don't believe in GOD." So I could see the nasty looks on their faces. I would like for them to stop shoving it in my face. If it not for that, I might be a believer - shoving it in people's faces isn't the answer. This is article today shows a clear and desparate sign of those fanatics. "

If you have a problem with religious people trying to hand you pamphlets, you need to lighten up. If they're trying to force their beliefs on you, then you have a legitimate complaint.

But I'm thinking you didn't consider how religious people are forced to live in your secular culture, and it's a bit more than pieces paper shoved at you.
Please elaborate.

I believe this says alot. And don't forget all the hoopla over the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. It's a gross distortion to say these things mean the government endorses Christianity. I mean, the biggest picture on the county seal is a Roman goddess. Does the US now support Roman paganism? Do Christians feel "unwelcome" because it's there?
IMO both those situations are much to do about nothing and only accomplish to mobilize extremists on both sides of the issue. As an Atheist I understand that I live in a society whose majority is Christian and as long as they don't discriminate against me as an Atheist I don't have a problem with it.

Now I can go on why the Pledge of Allegiance should be reverted back to it's original form but my argument would have more to do with the new pledge being a reminder of a historically unpleasant and shameful era of our society more than it would be an attempt of the majority trying to force their beliefs on others. The situation regarding the Seal of the City of Los Angeles is totally ridiculous and is just asking for trouble.
 

3chordcharlie

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Mar 30, 2004
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The 'transition' fossils argument isn't a good one - we have numerous examples of fossils that show probable evolutionary links (feathered dinosaurs are just one of these; sequences of apparently related apes, showing progressively different features are another.

You shouldn't find a man with an ape's head, or an 'ape' with a fully evolved man's head, because nothing in evolutionary theory says that you should do so. Fossilization is relatively rare, and finding fossils is also relatively rare - as a result, what you have is a very incomplete set of snapshots, not some sort of all-inclusive motion picture. We have entire species, especially of land animals, represented by one or two fossils!
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Creationists will grasp at any straw to attempt to refute the theory of evolution, simply because they've been taught to believe otherwise.

The Christian creation myth has no more validity than that of the Australian Aborigines, or of the Aztecs, or of any others, because it's based on Faith, rather than observable phenomena. It's a metaphorical description attempting to define the mysteries of perception in a highly superstitious goatherding society of 3000 years ago... written in an attempt to establish some social control by invoking the supernatural.

Then as now, promulgating it is one thing, actually believing it is entirely another.
 

dmcowen674

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Oct 13, 1999
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www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

dinos with feathers

I don't have a link ATM but a Fossilized Bird was found with Dino eggs in it.

 

Red Dawn

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Jun 4, 2001
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Why do Athiests want to ban the mention of Christ in public?
I can only speak for myself but I'm not interested in having it banned.
 

Hayabusa Rider

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Jan 26, 2000
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Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Why do Athiests want to ban the mention of Christ in public?
I can only speak for myself but I'm not interested in having it banned.

Good, because I think those who do are extremists. Likewise, I think the OP saying "religious" people rail against evolution is equally broad a statement. There are those who do oppose evolution, however if the many religious out there really felt it an issue, it would have been moot a long time ago. Fact is there is a vocal minority. The rest really don't care.

Too broad a brush for either side to use, and that was my point.
 

nakedfrog

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Apr 3, 2001
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Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Why do Athiests want to ban the mention of Christ in public?

Those "god" billboards annoy me to no end, but people just talking about him is fine.
 

conjur

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Jun 7, 2001
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Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: WinstonSmith
Why do Athiests want to ban the mention of Christ in public?
Those "god" billboards annoy me to no end, but people just talking about him is fine.
I think those are funny.

To be honest, I wish there were more of them. Might wake up some of these feel-good, Sunday-school "Christians"
 

cquark

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Apr 4, 2004
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Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

No, we've got an abundance of transitional fossils. Ever heard of homo erectus, our most recent ancestor, or earlier homonid species like homo habilis or our extinct cousins from the the genus australopithicus?

Google for "homonid fossils" and you'll find an abundance of resources, detailing the various transitional fossils.
 

Kadarin

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Nov 23, 2001
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Originally posted by: cquark
Originally posted by: chrisms
I was watching the Christian channel one afternoon and saw a show about evolution. They said that evolution is not true because the transition species have no been found, and that the half-ape half-human specimens we've found have been incomplete and unreliable at best.

I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?

No, we've got an abundance of transitional fossils. Ever heard of homo erectus, our most recent ancestor, or earlier homonid species like homo habilis or our extinct cousins from the the genus australopithicus?

Google for "homonid fossils" and you'll find an abundance of resources, detailing the various transitional fossils.

I'm wondering about this also. I think "the Christian channel" is conveniently ignoring the existence of those.
 

VIAN

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Aug 22, 2003
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I know better than to just trust what the Christian channel tells me, but isn't this true about the absence of transition fossils?
Yes, the cambrian explosion/gap. Very, very interesting stuff. This is a gap in the timeline of evidence. Meaning there was no evidence of life before it, and then there was, like things just appeared. What could this mean? Many things. The religious people are right, they don't teach that in science classes which sucked. I had to learn about it in college. But evolution makes sense and can be used today. From what I heard, we can use it to tell from what region someone is just by their physical features.

Well it seems unlikely to me that if evolution was a fact, that we would have no found transitonary fossils. I don't think it negates the entire concept, but I think it means maybe we shouldn't be so quick to accept it as a fact and negate any other ideas (creationism or anything else)
As soon as you understand what a theory is, then it seems unlikely that it was ever a fact since it's always been called Darwin's Theory.

I can't agree. The Earth is a big place, they could be where no one has looked. It's also possible these "missing" links were not as numerous, thus harder to find or even no evidence survived.
w
You are right, the earth is a big place. We haven't even explored the entire oceans, look how much is out there. There are creatures in the deep sea that we barely know about and that at first glance would have looked like they came out of a Sci-Fi movie. Possibly much land that we haven't explored or thought about exploring. All the missing evidence could still be here.

If you have a problem with religious people trying to hand you pamphlets, you need to lighten up. If they're trying to force their beliefs on you, then you have a legitimate complaint.
It's almost every freakin week I find one of these pamphlets at my job, toll collector, in my toll booth that people have handed out. Jahova's witness, that's the most annoying one. Creationism. I read some and they all seem to try and trick people into thinking it's something other than a religious pamphlet, but then in the end they get you and that's what I have come to expect. This seems like forcing. Please, if I was curious, then I would research, I don't need stupide pamphlets trying to trick me into their dying cult.

But I'm thinking you didn't consider how religious people are forced to live in your secular culture, and it's a bit more than pieces paper shoved at you.
I don't go out preaching. Religion should be kept inside your house and in your church and with people whom you know. And they aren't forced. They could move. They could become jewish or take on jewish practices that nearly isolate themselves from the rest of the world.

I believe this says alot. And don't forget all the hoopla over the phrase "under God" in the pledge of allegiance. It's a gross distortion to say these things mean the government endorses Christianity. I mean, the biggest picture on the county seal is a Roman goddess. Does the US now support Roman paganism? Do Christians feel "unwelcome" because it's there?
Maybe christians are being a little selfish, forgetting that there are other people with other religions in this world. People should have respect for other people's religious beliefs and that article was a demonstration of showing respect. Plus they would have gotten sued. But you know what's the funniest of all, money is endorsed by chritianity.

Sometimes we do go through stupid ideas though. Like remember that, a few weeks ago IIRC, some people wanted to change the BC and AD of time so that it didn't reflect religion. But the date reflects religion. I think removing that would be a shame since it's erasing a huge part of human history.

The Christian creation myth has no more validity than that of the Australian Aborigines, or of the Aztecs, or of any others, because it's based on Faith, rather than observable phenomena. It's a metaphorical description attempting to define the mysteries of perception in a highly superstitious goatherding society of 3000 years ago... written in an attempt to establish some social control by invoking the supernatural.
The corruption of past religious power in Rome comes to mind. As well as the incident of Martin Luther. Good man. Religious people shouldn't rule anything, because they are not objective. The pope's power should go the way of the Queen of England, non-existant. I'm not saying that the pope still can't do well, John Paul II certainly did some. But in truth, religion means nothing to people anyway. Has a war ever stopped because the pope said so? Unless we are talking about back in the day, no. Plus the new pope doesn't allow gays to get married. I mean, what is the harm of letting people do whatever harmless thing they want. If nobody gets hurt, go ahead! But people get hurt, especially when religious issues come to mind.

Why do Athiests want to ban the mention of Christ in public?
what do you mean public?

Likewise, I think the OP saying "religious" people rail against evolution is equally broad a statement. There are those who do oppose evolution, however if the many religious out there really felt it an issue, it would have been moot a long time ago. Fact is there is a vocal minority. The rest really don't care.
It's big enough to cause a problem in a school system. It could just be shoving the snowball down the hill.

Those "god" billboards annoy me to no end, but people just talking about him is fine.
Oh yes, there is nothing more offensive than that to me. I'm agnostic, but people act like this religious stuff is Hard fact - as hard as a titanium 2x4 hitting your face. It's not. "Use your own name in vain - God" Oh really, god said that. Is god really his name. Or is it a label that we placed on him. This is what I'm talking about, shoving it in your face. I see a few signs like these within the scope of 13Miles. And if you down to Pennsylvania. Those farmers try shoving it down your throat too with dumbass signs like this. If I wasn't a decent human being, I would rip each sign to pieces. But alass, I am. That's right, decent human beings do live outside of religion.

I'm wondering about this also. I think "the Christian channel" is conveniently ignoring the existence of those.
(deep breath)... ya smell that... like corruption.