Regarding the Mosque and Islam in America

[Jaskalas]

Regarding the Mosque,

It was only 10 years ago when this would be a non issue. I would have thought of Islam as equal, as many of you still do now. I would have thought nothing of a Mosque being built. September 11th changed things. It left a scar.

The damage done does not change our laws. Our constitution provides a blank equality, that we are not allowed a biased towards Islam even though our feelings are now quite different. At face value, this Mosque must be allowed to be built.

Yet the American people feel quite differently. The changes that were made on September 11th mean that our laws no longer reflect our will. This divergence needs to be addressed before the issue can be put to rest. Unless we address our problem with Islam, Islam will not be safe from undue persecution in this country. We need Congress to directly address the issue of September 11th with a massive outreach program.

I am starting to get deeply troubled by the anti-muslim fervor becoming mainstream.

It's growing because Islam was never addressed after September 11th. We fought two wars which completely sideline and ignore the heart of the problem: Islam in the United States. Iraq and Afghanistan have nothing to do with that. Our wars are a distraction.

All we've done is make Americans miserable through invasive security laws and checks. We've never individually addressed Islam. There's been no real effort to find and support the moderates of that religion. We have not empowered them and thus we've not dealt with September 11th.

There's distrust, and it'll take a tremendous effort to overcome this. Congress must pass a bill that encourages Islam to moderate and brings to the public attention its efforts to do so. We must see that community throw aside violent threats. We must see it cast down its own members who preach violence. All of this must be done publicly with media attention.

Our military, our police, these men and women must not be the first line of defense against Islamic terrorism. That fist line of defense must come from Islam itself. We need to do WHAT EVER it takes to make that happen.

When the American people believe this, then there will be no more mainstream persecution of Islam. The Mosque will once again be a non issue, and no one will feel the need to side with Quran burning.

We need to address America’s problem with Islam. Congress needs to act, Islam must participate, and the American people need to know.

 

[Craig234]

There are some problems with your suggestion, the idea that 'something needs to be done, Islam needs to participate', etc.

But you are on to a few things as well, that there is a problem with people's views - and some tension between many in the US and Islam.

In theory, the US democracy could not care less if the Muslims became 90% of America tomorrow, and the government were dominated by Muslims.

Yet many Americans find that idea horrific - and think the US can only be a Christian nation. There's almost chance of that happening, but this shows people's attitudes.

The whole theory of 'religious neutral' is a nice theory, but many Americans don't really subscribe to it. They might not be taking any actions to the contrary, but scratch them and hate and fear of 'the others' whether they be immigrant, races, religions, whatever, bleeds out. They're easy to 'get on the bandwagon' by demogogue politicians who stimulate their emotions and ask for their vote.

What we can use is leadership. It's a lot easier for politicians to not do anything about the tensions - lest they anger the bigots and face big problems, so they say little.

To his credit, President Bush did make a lot of statements that 'Islam is a religion of peace' and that 'Islam is not an enemy of the United States', but many did not listen.

The US has been through this many times before with different groups and situations. One person noted the US has basically always had some immigrant group the public is worked up about 'threatening our culture' or 'taking our work' or such, wanting to discriminate against the latest 'mongrels', as long as the country has been here.

For a century, American politicians mostly found it convenient not to deal with the public's racism against blacks - until John Kennedy made it an issue and pushed a civil rights bill.

What are you asking Congress to 'do'? Pass a bill making it official that we're not anti-Muslim? Congress did that way back under Washington IIRC, when it was trying to reassure a Muslim nation who was wary of making a trade agreement. We have an issue, but it's a cultural issue needing to confront people's arrogance, their hate, and it's not that easy.

And the fact is, there are real differences many have with some things common in Islam; it's not simply blind bigotry, it's bigotry with some substance in the core, just as whites' feelings towards blacks can include both baseless racism and yet there are real issues of blacks with dropout rates, crime rates, etc.

There's some truth to the idea that Islam could have more 'outreach' to build a better 'PR' image with many in the public, but should that really be a requirement for a religion to avoid persecution? Much of that PR is 'phony' anyway - some of the worst religions might be the first to embrace building a good 'PR' image, like some of the televangelists. Do Amish or Quakers have 'outreach programs' we see?

Unfortunately, Muslims are an easy target for demagogues to exploit - look at Newt Gingrich sponsoring a new book talking about 'the war with Islam Humanity's end game' type rhetoric. Shameless hate mongering. We could be doing a lot better outreach too - remember, we're the ones who have been over putting dictators in place in Muslim nations who would serve our corporations instead of the people there. We're the ones who have pushed wars that have killed millions there, and extracted great wealth (but admittedly been one of at least their governments' great customers as well, spending trillions on their oil).

We need both sides demonizing not Muslims, but demogogues, and reminding everyone - Christians and Muslims - of the idea of co-existing.

This was an issue with the communist world - some wanting war and some wanting peace with communist nations, an understandable conflict in part when some viewed communist nations as 'inherently evil/criminal' and deserving of attack while others valued peace more and a longer term approach. Some of the issue is the arrogance of people who would prefer a 'Christian planet' and look for any excuse to 'fight' Islam. They need to be pushed to support peace if we're to have peace.

Our presidents - Bush and Obama - have said the right things about Islam being a religion of peace, but haven't said others. Too many on our side get angry over the very idea of the truth being told, about any of our mistakes - and there are plenty of mistakes by Islamic countries that have been done and are still being done to deal with too.

IMO, we can use leadership to further push 'peace'.

Read this historic speech by John Kennedy at the height of the cold war, months after the Cuban Missile Crisis, for an idea how to tell a fearful, angry people to support peace.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/jfkamericanuniversityaddress.html

The levels of tension seem to make it likely more attacks will occur - on both sides (theirs more terrorist groups, ours more military attacks), furthering the tensions.

Will we 'race to war', or will be deal with the attacks and tensions the way Al Queda and our own radicals who profit from conflict don't want, by pushing peace?

Save234

 

[tinker2141]

America has no problem with Islam. Radical Islam declared war with America. No need to shove some social program down our throats to help ease the wound your culture caused. No, I am very happy to kill those who wish harm upon my countrymen. Mainstream persecution of Islam? Did the death camps open last night? You get hauled out of your house? STFU! Islam needs to stop being so damn sensitive. How about Christians, Jews even fucking Buddhist take face shots daily. Do they decide to go blow themselves up and declare war on those who, gasp, exercise their god given rights? Nope they live out their lives like normal people. No one could give a damn about them. But ho ho the religion of peace gets stuck under the micro scope after bombing our military ships, embassies and finally the towers and we are the ones to blame. Get a clue. Happy Sept. 11 and enjoy the BBQ.

 

[nick1985]

America has no problem with Islam. Radical Islam declared war with America. No need to shove some social program down our throats to help ease the wound your culture caused. No, I am very happy to kill those who wish harm upon my countrymen. Mainstream persecution of Islam? Did the death camps open last night? You get hauled out of your house? STFU! Islam needs to stop being so damn sensitive. How about Christians, Jews even fucking Buddhist take face shots daily. Do they decide to go blow themselves up and declare war on those who, gasp, exercise their god given rights? Nope they live out their lives like normal people. No one could give a damn about them. But ho ho the religion of peace gets stuck under the micro scope after bombing our military ships, embassies and finally the towers and we are the ones to blame. Get a clue. Happy Sept. 11 and enjoy the BBQ.

:thumbsup:

 

[Carmen813]

Radicals declared war on the U.S., not Islam. Religion was merely a catalyst they used to do so.

It is difficult for moderate Muslims to speak out when so many of them are painted with broad brushes. What is required is for good people who enjoy majority positions in our society to join them. They cannot do it alone. The reality is that because of the way people have responded to this mosque being built in NYC, the Imam really no longer has any choice but to build it where it is. If he moves now, radicals across the world will capitalize on it to show how intolerant and evil Americans are.

Officially, I'm not sure Congress can pass any such law as it would violate the first amendment. That said, I do agree that our leaders need to do more to encourage a discussion about religious tolerance, and in fact, tolerance in general.

I think today is a day that we can all use to step back away from the noise and chatter to remember that the things we have in common are much greater than the differences we have. If such a horror was to repeat itself again, I still believe our petty squabbles would be put aside.

 

[Craig234]

America has no problem with Islam.

Your post is ignorant; very ignorant.

Let's take some points one by one. The one above - putting aside the question of a 'problem with Islam', America has had big problems with many followers of Islam.

Arranging for tyrants to rule countries hurting Muslims, for the sake of our getting to take their resources more cheaply and give us more power, to divide and conquer - things that were done before by England and then the US with them - you should read a book called "The Devil's Game" to get a clue about the role England and the US have in *building up violent, radical Islamic groups for the purpose of defeating nationalists in Muslim countries*. So yes, we've had a big problem with Muslims.

Note, I'm responding to you, so I'm not discussing 'both sides' - Muslim countries have certainly discriminated against non-Muslims, etc.

Radical Islam declared war with America.

Only partly true. When the US installed dictators in countries, who was declaring war?

When the US made a deal with the tyrants of Saudi Arabia to provide protection for their government in exchange for guaranteed access to oil, was that the Muslim people? Did the US put military bases in their holy location, or did the Muslims put military bases in Washington D.C. or in Rome?

When the US helped build up radical Islamic groups to divide the Muslims to help conquer them, who was declaring war?

But there is some truth to it. With the radicals unpopular in the Muslim world, fleeing to the wastes of Afghanistan, they wanted to get more support from Muslims - and 'declared war' against the US to get it, first trying attacks such as on embassies or a military ship, but then 9/11 to provoke the US to attack a Muslim nation - and hopefully drive Muslims into the arms of Al Queda to fight the invader.

But that was a tiny bit of Muslims, radicals, and they were the enemy of mainstream Muslims. The radicals want the US and Muslims at war - and you are their tool.

You are serving the Al Queda agenda, pushing war not peace.

No need to shove some social program down our throats to help ease the wound your culture caused.

Your political nuttingness is evident in you using 'social program' like a dirty word, you clearly would prefer the US people go back to terrible poverty from a century ago.

But the Muslims did not 'cause the wound' of 9/11 - putting aside the behavior of the US, it was Al Queda who did that, *as an act of war on the US and Muslims*, not Muslims.

You are the one committing an act of war on Muslims, by falsely blaming them for something they did not do and screaming for war and violence against innocents.

No, I am very happy to kill those who wish harm upon my countrymen.

Why shouldn't Muslims be very happy to kill those who wish harm upon their countrymen - whether that's Al Queda or you or the US?

Where is the justice for a country like Iran - the US taking their democracy and installing a tyrant, and following it by backing the invasion of their country by Saddam Hussein in the longest war of the 20th century with a million casualties? Apparently saying we might have done anything that was wrong in all that is reason for Americans to march with torches on the White House that telling the truth makes the President a traitor.

You have an arrogant and ignorant double standard that is unjust and causes war by those you would wrong.

You can kill millions and have no acocuntability; anyone harming 'your countrymen' entitles you to target millions of innocent Muslims lumping with the attacker.

Mainstream persecution of Islam? Did the death camps open last night?

Are the things we've done to Muslims nothing, because they aren't 'death camps'? Has Iran opened 'death camps' for Christians?

STFU! Islam needs to stop being so damn sensitive.

Compare the situations the west has caused in many Muslim countries, and then compare it to YOUR sensitivities - you are the one to complain??

That's like OJ Simpson complaining that his wife got blood on his clothes when he killed her.

People like you are marching against Muslims creating a community center, and YOU are the complainer about their saying you are fighting against their equal rights.

You are the one who needs to take some responsibility for your own desire to do evil.

How about Christians, Jews even fucking Buddhist take face shots daily.

Which Christian nation has had anything done to it by Muslims remotely comparable to nations like Iran? What are you even talking about?

There is discrimination by some Muslim powers against other religions - and that's wrong. It doesn't excuse the wrongs you ignore.

Do they decide to go blow themselves up and declare war on those who, gasp, exercise their god given rights?

No, they have the most powerful military in the world and for most of a century have done things far worse, like the things in the book I suggested, which you won't read.

Al Queda declaring war on the US had nothing to do with 'exercising our rights'. It had mostly to do with improving their position with Muslims by creating war between the US and Muslims - the agenda you are a tool for - and a bit to do with the US's history including many wrongs in the Middle East. Al Queda has an agenda to push their radical views on other Muslims who don't want them - and are using war to try to do it. You are trying to help them, lumping all Muslims with Al Queda because you don't seem able to deal with Muslims not all being the same. If a black man commits violence, all blacks did. If an Al Queda member commits violence, all Muslims did. But you are selective about who you do group blame for. If the US has an innocent person tortured for information or jailed for years - who cares. If a few Americans shoot a family crossing illegally from Mexico, who cares.

But ho ho the religion of peace gets stuck under the micro scope after bombing our military ships, embassies and finally the towers and we are the ones to blame. Get a clue. Happy Sept. 11 and enjoy the BBQ.

No, Al Queda did, not 99.9% of Muslims, but you blame all Muslims for it. This makes you aggressor. You're the one who needs to get a clue. Read the book.

 

[tinker2141]

I see you are very hurt over how Islam is perceived. Not my problem. You claim 90% of Islam is against the actions of a few yet I see no protest over any of it. I do see several celebrations of the 9/11 attacks though. I do see a lot of flag burnings, death threats and other radical celebrations taking place while the moderate majority remains silent. You are more than welcome to try and jam a bunch of Islam re-education down our throats though. Really go for it, I mean that is what your people do every day overseas right? Support and respect Islam or else. Your post seams all too familiar just written in a more educated and less threatening manner.

 

[nick1985]

I see you are very hurt over how Islam is perceived. Not my problem. You claim 90% of Islam is against the actions of a few yet I see no protest over any of it. I do see several celebrations of the 9/11 attacks though. I do see a lot of flag burnings, death threats and other radical celebrations taking place while the moderate majority remains silent. You are more than welcome to try and jam a bunch of Islam re-education down our throats though. Really go for it, I mean that is what your people do every day overseas right? Support and respect Islam or else. Your post seams all too familiar just written in a more educated and less threatening manner.

:thumbsup:

 

[Moonbeam]

The problem with Islam, in my opinion, is the governments of the countries where Islam is a majority. Those governments need to be overthrown and replaced by democracy so that folk can evolve out of the stone age. But money grubbing fucktards that we are, we sidle up to these governments to fight the soviets, or to get their oil. We are the enemy of the people of Islam and they know it.

Pass a law that demands energy independence yesterday and stop supporting dictatorships and support the efforts of Islam to be free from assholes. They will send flowers instead of bombs.

Why is it so hard to understand that when you are a bully and an asshole or support them, you are going to get kicked in the teeth? Wait, I know, it's because of the denial of self hate. Folk trying to deny how worthless they feel can't handle honest self reflection. One little flaw, if they were to see it, would plunge them into the despair of massive self deprecation. To know yourself is what takes the real nuts. The asshole is just a cover for worthlessness.

 

[Moonbeam]

I see you are very hurt over how Islam is perceived. Not my problem. You claim 90% of Islam is against the actions of a few yet I see no protest over any of it. I do see several celebrations of the 9/11 attacks though. I do see a lot of flag burnings, death threats and other radical celebrations taking place while the moderate majority remains silent. You are more than welcome to try and jam a bunch of Islam re-education down our throats though. Really go for it, I mean that is what your people do every day overseas right? Support and respect Islam or else. Your post seams all too familiar just written in a more educated and less threatening manner.

You are way way too stupid to see your problem.

By the way, radical right winged tea baggers and asshole Republicans have silenced moderate conservatives just like fanatical Islamic bigots have silenced their own moderates. It's a very familiar pattern.

 

[tinker2141]

You are way way too stupid to see your problem.

By the way, radical right winged tea baggers and asshole Republicans have silenced moderate conservatives just like fanatical Islamic bigots have silenced their own moderates. It's a very familiar pattern.

No not stupid I simply see Islam for what it is. A fanatical religion that should be marginalized the same way every other religion in the world has. Gut its power, persecute its followers and demonize them. We have done it to every other major religion for the same reasons throughout history. What makes them so special?

 

[Moonbeam]

No not stupid I simply see Islam for what it is. A fanatical religion that should be marginalized the same way every other religion in the world has. Gut its power, persecute its followers and demonize them. We have done it to every other major religion for the same reasons throughout history. What makes them so special?

Only a fool would say he sees Islam for what it is and see it as you do. You are a titanically blind bigot, but what else is new.

 

[tinker2141]

Only a fool would say he sees Islam for what it is and see it as you do. You are a titanically blind bigot, but what else is new.

LOL I am sure you would have the same opinion if it was radical Christians? Probably not. Islam is a ridicules and archaic practice that needs to be put in its place. Having faith is fine, I am all for it. Running around chopping heads off and screaming death to the unbelievers is an entirely different situation. Much like burning witches at the steak, persecuting Jews and killing homosexuals all of which Islam advocates. It is time to marginalize them and have them take their place amongst the other powerless religions in the world.

 

[Moonbeam]

LOL I am sure you would have the same opinion if it was radical Christians? Probably not. Islam is a ridicules and archaic practice that needs to be put in its place. Having faith is fine, I am all for it. Running around chopping heads off and screaming death to the unbelievers is an entirely different situation. Much like burning witches at the steak, persecuting Jews and killing homosexuals all of which Islam advocates. It is time to marginalize them and have them take their place amongst the other powerless religions in the world.

I guess you're right. All we have to do is wipe out a billion people. That should do the trick.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

:thumbsup:

You ought to know-

Chanting "burn, baby, burn," a group of Muslims in Dearborn lit ablaze Friday night effigies of Pastor Terry Jones of Florida and Osama bin Laden in a protest against religious extremism.





Led by Dearborn attorney Majed Moughni, the group burned a pair of dolls holding hands that were dressed up to represent Jones, the Florida pastor who has plans to burn Qurans, and of Osama bin Laden, the terrorist behind the Sept. 11 attacks.
"They both represent the murder, killing, and war against America," Moughni said before the blaze was lit with a Bic lighter. As the flames flickered on his lawn in Dearborn, Moughni added: "Pastor Terry Jones. Osama bin Laden. It's getting hot in here, it's getting real hot."
Moughni told the Free Press he wanted to burn both of them on the lawn at his home on the eve of the Sept. 11 anniversary because he said both represent religious extremists who should "burn in hell."
"We're watching as the holiest book in Islam is under attack," Moughni said. "This is to show we're against what pastor Jones is doing. We're not going to be quiet. We're going to speak up."
"We're also protesting Osama bin Laden, the man who is the cause of all of this," Moughni added. "He doesn't represent Islam. He represents terrorists, just as Terry Jones does. They're both contributing to attacks on the U.S."
The burning of effigies is usually seen in Muslim countries, where protesters will burn representations of people they are angry with. The Dearborn burning took place in a fire pit on Moughni's lawn. As the flames lit up the night sky, some took pictures and others clapped. Several U.S. flags were on display near the fire as a show of patriotism.
Moughni bought two dolls with skull heads from a Halloween store, dressing them up in ghoulish costumes; he had the faces of bin Laden and Jones placed on the heads. They were hung from a tree above a fire pit. Behind them, members of Moughni's family held up U.S. flags and placards next to each other that read: "Burn" and "Osama & Jones."
Just after 8:45 p.m., Moughni took off the paper faces of the two effigies and threw them into the fire pit below, declaring:
"When you try to burn the Koran ... you are telling the Muslims around the world, this war is a war" against Islam, Moughi said.
Then, Mohammad Moughni, 30, of Dearborn Heights, set on fire the wood and the two effigies, which were quickly consumed.
"We’re fighting fire with fire tonight," Moughni said before the blaze was set. "We’re going to give them both the treatment they deserve, and they both deserve to be set on fire. They can both burn in this world and burn in hell."
Moughni drew attention earlier this year for organizing an anti-terrorism protest in front of the federal courthouse in Detroit after the terrorism attacks on Christmas Day in a Detroit-bound airplane by a Muslim man from Nigeria. Later, Moughni received death threats from an Islamic extremist. Moughni also held a rally to support the Christian missionaries arrested in June at the Arab festival in Dearborn.
Speaking Friday night during the blaze, Moughni said:
"This is a message we wanted to send to America and ... to all the Muslims in the world: America is on the side of Islam. And Islam is on the side of America. Our enemies are Osama bin Laden and Pastor Terry Jones."

Jones did nothing but incite. His actions could reasonably be understood to be throwing gas on a fire putting many at risk. At least these people understand that extremism which causes harm is a bad thing.

Where were the "christians" on the right? Palin? Beck? All mysteriously silent.

I suspect that those who supported the burning by Jones as some righteous act, religious or patriotic, mimic closely in thought those who are Islamic that cause trouble.

There seems to be little effort to understanding the dynamic between Islam "because everybody knows" this or that.

The general lack of interest in truth isn't comforting.

 

[Infohawk]

I agree with OP that the oddly growing anti-Islam sentiments are a result of ignoring the connection between 9/11 and Islam. That is why there is a mosque controversy. The developers are basically saying, "What? Islam has nothing to do with 9/11." That pisses most Americans off.

I would disagree with OP that an outreach is a solution. I really see very little evidence of the much talked about moderate Islam. Wearing burkas and even headscarves is barbaric, not moderate. Following texts that say gays are evil and stoning is great is barbaric.

What we need to do is contain Islam. We don't need to be in the middle-east. We do need to aid others in fighting it on its borders in Africa, Europe and Asia.

Moonbeam, maybe just maybe Islam has a causal connection with dictatorships?

 

[nick1985]

I guess you're right. All we have to do is wipe out a billion people. That should do the trick.

Where did he say anything about killing them?

 

[GarfieldtheCat]

I see you are very hurt over how Islam is perceived. Not my problem. You claim 90% of Islam is against the actions of a few yet I see no protest over any of it. I do see several celebrations of the 9/11 attacks though. I do see a lot of flag burnings, death threats and other radical celebrations taking place while the moderate majority remains silent. You are more than welcome to try and jam a bunch of Islam re-education down our throats though. Really go for it, I mean that is what your people do every day overseas right? Support and respect Islam or else. Your post seams all too familiar just written in a more educated and less threatening manner.

Ahh, I see bigot1985 and you are out trolling and showing your incredible ignorance again. Kids nowadays just don't even know what they are talking about anymore.

Please provide proof that all of islam is out to kill you and bigot1985 please. We'll be waiting. Or even proof that 90% are out to kill you. So 1.5billion Muslims are trying to find you and bigot1985 and kill you, LOL. Yea right. Better hide under your bed so they don't find you.

I see Christians killing abortion doctors, and I haven't seen 90% of all Christians immediately protest it. Hmmm.....I guess by your (lack of) logic, that makes all of Christianity complicit and guilty as well.

You and bigot985 just go to show the how we as a country are becoming more ignorant about facts, and instead tend to make up whatever you think is right. Well done for ignoring facts and making up your own.

 

[Craig234]

You ought to know-

Where were the "christians" on the right? Palin? Beck? All mysteriously silent.

Actually Palin and some similar people did condemn the Quran burning - but did so by equating it to the 'provocation' of building the community center in Manhattan.

 

[nick1985]

Ahh, I see bigot1985 and you are out trolling and showing your incredible ignorance again. Kids nowadays just don't even know what they are talking about anymore.

Please provide proof that all of islam is out to kill you and bigot1985 please. We'll be waiting. Or even proof that 90% are out to kill you. So 1.5billion Muslims are trying to find you and bigot1985 and kill you, LOL. Yea right. Better hide under your bed so they don't find you.

I see Christians killing abortion doctors, and I haven't seen 90% of all Christians immediately protest it. Hmmm.....I guess by your (lack of) logic, that makes all of Christianity complicit and guilty as well.

You and bigot985 just go to show the how we as a country are becoming more ignorant about facts, and instead tend to make up whatever you think is right. Well done for ignoring facts and making up your own.

Cocksuckerthecat, nobody is saying that Islam is out to kill us. You cant read, Cocksuckerthecat

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Actually Palin and some similar people did condemn the Quran burning - but did so by equating it to the 'provocation' of building the community center in Manhattan.

I haven't what they said, but if that's how it was presented it's completely unacceptable.

When I heard about the mosque I reacted with "WTF", because it was "being built on the site of 9/11". When I did just a bit of looking I thought it was their right and not a finger in anyone's face, but perhaps insensitive to the community. After further consideration I realized that virtually everything is "close" to ground zero and there is limited opportunity on Manhattan Island to construct anything. It's a structure which provides a service to it's community that does not exist now. In other words the conflict has been awkward, but I'm OK with it.

FWIW I think much (not all) of the feelings expressed can be attributed to ignorance instead of genuine malice. The role of Islam in 9/11 for example. It would be naive to believe there is no connection between what was done and what it was done in the name of. That however is not the fault of the religion, but the ones who would use it to inspire death. So it is true with Christianity or any other cause.

Infohawk- step way back and go along with this for a moment.

Imagine you lived in a country where a foreign power was using your resources. While you may have been on good terms at one time, you find that your land has something which is so valuable that the other land seeks to dominate you, taking your money, your natural resources and you are supposed to take it.

Well you say "No, God has given us rights that will not be taken from us." The underdog nation goes to war and uses non uniformed people to sabotage and attack. When confronted they fade into the countryside frustrating the more powerful land.

I could be describing the reaction of people in Iran and the surrounding regions who had their leaders assassinated, their only resource taken from them. I could be describing a reaction to the Shah.

I am not. I'm talking about Jefferson, Franklin and others who faced a far more powerful nation down, and they had the God given "inalienable right" to do so. The right of self determination in the face of a dictator, King George.

Am I now calling Osama a hero? By no means. He is an opportunist who attacks the civilians of our land (and a key difference is that we never went to Britain and slaughtered their people).

But why did he find such sympathy? Why did many people follow the Founders? Because of Christianity? God was invoked enough to be sure, but it was not because of religion, but a sense that we were harmed, being second rate citizens at best, and perhaps a whole lot worse.

Tell me, if you lived in a land which was raped by a virtually all powerful nation, wouldn't you find it at least a bit rewarding that they got something in return for the suffering your people endured? You know you would. Assuming you were a Christian, would you feel that way because of your religious views? How about as an agnostic if the oppressing nation was largely religious? No you just would resent being exploited.

Christian beliefs more strongly influenced thinking back in the days of the Revolution than it does now. The concept of Manifest Destiny could be attributed to Christianity, but you probably know it was really an issue of nationalistic expansion.

For all this we look at ourselves with pride for standing up to England, yet fail to understand that many Muslims from the region feel the same way about the US and resent us for some cause. That does not mean that their religion, or even their objective past causes them to all want to kill us. Most want to get on with their lives, but we have little honest debate. We see it as a problem of "them" while removing ourselves from the equation.

That's poor reasoning.

 

[Rainsford]

We need to support Islamic moderates? How about the ones trying to build a community center in NYC near the former WTC site?

The OP is admirably vague about what exactly we can do to solve these problems, probably because in all honesty there's not a very rational reason to dislike Islam as a whole, so it's hard to think of concrete ways to combat that feeling. It's hard to do something positive that would be as symbolicly powerful as the 9/11 terrorist attack, so as long as people are willing to judge the entire religion on a handful of powerful events carried out by an incredibly tiny minority, there's little that can be done to change their minds.

Ultimately the only thing that will solve this problem is time. The most curious thing about the "Ground Zero Mosque" debate, in my mind, was the way that opponents of the project almost always referred to "Muslims" and "Americans" as two completely separate groups. As long as Muslims are viewed dreaded outsiders and not fellow Americans, attitudes will NEVER change. And unfortunately, that viewpoint is something that WE will have to fix ourselves, not something we can bully the Muslim community into doing or something Congress can fix with legislation.

 

[Dominato3r]

Are they going to stop building churches near schools?

 

[Infohawk]

Are they going to stop building churches near schools?

You just dumbed down the thread by several orders of magnitude.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Are they going to stop building churches near schools?

Even better. "They" are going to outlaw fedora hats.