Red Hat: Stick with Windows at home

[drag]

Originally posted by: xSauronx
some of you people have too much time to argue with people you dont know....i dont even spend that much time trying to make a point to my wife

on second thought, that may just be because shes a woman...

Well, at work it's either arguing with the clueless(or messing around on the internet in general) or take naps, and I wasn't realy that tired. Do you realy think I feed trolls on my own time?!

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: Smilin

Originally posted by: earthman
BWAAAAHAAAHAAAAHAAA! That's the stupidest thing I ever heard! Can you imaging Bill Gates saying that Windows isn't ready for the enterprise so you better use Unix for your server? LOL! Amazing. The Linux community is its own worst enemy. They must be rolling in the aisles over at MS. First the SCO lawsuits and now this.

Hehe, actually they're only snickering at that one. This is what they're rolling in the aisles over.

One thing I wonder about. How much does a large company spend on talking to techs a year?

"standard edition" gets you:

# Easy ISOs: OS, Source, and Documentation ISO Images
# Red Hat Network Services 1-Year
# Quarterly OS Updates
# Optional Installation and Documentation Media (CDs) available at no charge
# Optional Printed Installation Guide available at no charge
# 24/7 Web Support

# North American Phone Support:
9-9 ET M-F

# Global Phone Support:
9-5 GMT/CET M-F

# Web Response Time/SLA:
2 business days

# Phone Response Time/SLA:
4 hours

# Scope of Coverage:
1 year of Standard Coverage

It's a honest question. Is something like this worth it?

 

[Smilin]

Sure I suppose it might be worth it, then again maybe not...

For the same price at MS you get:
24/7 support with 1 hour callback response time (if a callback is even required)
2 minute response time with a premier account on severity A or 1 calls (business critical system down)

Yep, MS is rolling in the aisles.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Sure I suppose it might be worth it, then again maybe not...

For the same price at MS you get:
24/7 support with 1 hour callback response time (if a callback is even required)
2 minute response time with a premier account on severity A or 1 calls (business critical system down)

Yep, MS is rolling in the aisles.

Were's there pricing sceme for support? And what OS do you get that with, w2k/XP? Or do you have to buy the server edition to get the tech support for "free"?

edit; Nevermind, I found it.

 

[drag]

Correct me if I am wrong, but...

You buy the 299 dollar "standard edition" of "Red Hat Enterprise Linux WS" you get a year subscription to 12/5 phone support and 24/7 web support...

To get tech support for w2k server that's $249 PER PHONE CALL (or issue, I guess in includes it when they do call backs.). Or $99 per online web session.

 

[Smilin]

Ok, I'll correct you.

wk2 server you get two free incidents @ 24/7 phone support. Plus if it's update/hotfix or service pack related you get unlimited for life. Pay per incidents are charged 'per incident', not per call. They'll stick with it until it's fixed. Plus any pay per incident that turns out to be a problem with MS software is refunded no questions asked (think linux will do that?). If it's a third party problem you can just thank the third party for your costs even though MS will attempt to (and usually does) fix it for them. Lets not let that 24 by 7 slip by either...it's not insignificant. When do you think the maintenance window on an enterprise server is? 8am monday? hehe If your web transaction server goes down Friday night do you want to wait 2 minutes or 2 days?

 

[Smilin]

Oh, I almost forgot...

Dec 31st 2003 Redhat will discontinue support for 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and 8.0.
April 30th, 2004 they will discontinue all support for 9.0
No more maintenance and errata support for any currently existing versions of redhat.

Despite rumors to the contrary you can still contact MS support for NT 4.0 and get the same support you got back in 1995 when it was new. The reason for this is MS support is there for just that 'support'. With Redhat it's there to be their only source of 'making money'.

 

[chorner]

Your not realy that bright, are you?

Seems you don't know the difference between your, and you're Nice statement though!

You then state ...

Linux is much faster for me then Windows. I suppose if you want to try to make linux into a free version of windows, then it will be pretty crappy.

When I talk about how I can do stuff in linux just like windows it is just to show that you are not going to lose out in anything by switching. I can do lots of stuff in Linux that would be a huge pain in the ass or cost hundreds of dollars in Windows.

Isn't that a little contradictory? If its not trying to be Windows; why bother proving you can do the same as you can in Windows if thats not the intent in the first place? .... whose the bright one now?

Nothinman, the only vaild point you reallt made was in regards to IIS, and loading up Windows server in the first place; BUT -and its a BIG resounding BUT- we're talking DESKTOPS here ... what home version of Windows comes with IIS installed by default? Furthermore, what sysadmin wouldn't know better with both OS'es in the first place? We're talking about desktop OS'es here.

Apache ... I meant installing it is faster. You do have a valid point about Apache being free, and being as good or better than IIS (in a security sense anyways) Visually, IIS is easier and faster (or as fast) to manage.

Also, about boot times ... Linux takes JUST as long if not longer to boot than Windows on EVERY machine I've owned, and ran both on ( 3 at the office, and 2 of my machines at home)

I bet all the guys working for IBM and oracle go home and play a game of Warcraft III on their WIndows based PC's lol

Also, 3Dfx was first, and THE BEST with their first line of consumer 3D cards ... where are they now? Duuuhhh they were taken over by better companies; they we're first ... and nobody else at the time had the foresite that they had; look at them now!

Pathetic

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Oh, I almost forgot...

Dec 31st 2003 Redhat will discontinue support for 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and 8.0.
April 30th, 2004 they will discontinue all support for 9.0
No more maintenance and errata support for any currently existing versions of redhat.

Despite rumors to the contrary you can still contact MS support for NT 4.0 and get the same support you got back in 1995 when it was new. The reason for this is MS support is there for just that 'support'. With Redhat it's there to be their only source of 'making money'.

Well, I've never used MS's support, sdo I have no comment on that.
Haven't used RedHat's either, so no comment there either.

But this one:

The reason for this is MS support is there for just that 'support'. With Redhat it's there to be their only source of 'making money'.

I hope you don't seriously think MS is supporting it for the sake of support?
They're supporting it to look good to the public, or in the end, make money, no more no less.

I'd say a developer who gives away his program, then fixes a bug if you find one, that's support for the sake of support, when company supports something, it's always about money in the end, and this goes for MS, Sun, RedHat, etc etc.

 

[Nothinman]

Seems you don't know the difference between your, and you're Nice statement though!

Sorry, didn't realize you were going to pick apart the semantics and ignore the content, although I should've guessed you would.

Isn't that a little contradictory? If its not trying to be Windows; why bother proving you can do the same as you can in Windows if thats not the intent in the first place? .... whose the bright one now?

Because people like you cry and whine about how Windows is so great and how all those commercial apps make your days so wonderfull. But the reality is all those commercial apps are a waste of money because there's a ton of free software that will do the exact same thing, usually better.

BUT -and its a BIG resounding BUT- we're talking DESKTOPS here .

And the patch part applies greatly to the desktop side, more so than the server side because normally the server would be on a protected corporate network but there are a ton of desktops sitting directly on the Internet spreading IIS worms that are several years old.

what home version of Windows comes with IIS installed by default? Furthermore, what sysadmin wouldn't know better with both OS'es in the first place? We're talking about desktop OS'es here.

I never said IIS was installed by default, apparently your reading comprehension isn't as good as your spelling. But there's a ton of people who pirate Windows and install Advanced Server because it's cool and they install TS and IIS and win32-lpd and everything else then let it sit on the Internet and spread all those wonderfull worms.

Apache ... I meant installing it is faster. You do have a valid point about Apache being free, and being as good or better than IIS (in a security sense anyways) Visually, IIS is easier and faster (or as fast) to manage.

Installing it isn't even faster, you have to click through a handfull of Add/Remove programs windows before you even get to where you can click the check box just to hit OK 3 more times. Apache is installed with a single command 'apt-get install apache', even someone who can't touch-type could type that faster than clicking through installing IIS. Visually easier is crap, all it does is make it so people think they know what they're doing and they usually end up doing it wrong. And Apache is easier to configure because it's config file is a text file (like IIS is in Win2K3, MS is making Windows more and more like unix with every release except the IIS xml config file is ugly as hell) and can be edited and copied like any other normal file. Want to duplicate a configuration from a production server to a development server with Apache? Simple, copy the httpd.conf file over, change the hostname and you're done.

Also, about boot times ... Linux takes JUST as long if not longer to boot than Windows on EVERY machine I've owned, and ran both on ( 3 at the office, and 2 of my machines at home)

So? I never reboot so I could care less, faster booting wouldn't be a bad thing but it's not at all a real problem.

I bet all the guys working for IBM and oracle go home and play a game of Warcraft III on their WIndows based PC's lol

Probably. And that's where Windows belongs, on gaming machines for the kids to use while Linux/unix is being used at work to do real work.

Also, 3Dfx was first, and THE BEST with their first line of consumer 3D cards ... where are they now? Duuuhhh they were taken over by better companies; they we're first ... and nobody else at the time had the foresite that they had; look at them now!

3Dfx screwed themselves with the V5500 being so big and hot and the 6000 vaporware that would've just been bigger, hotter and noisier. nVidia bought them out because nVidia had the better hardware and better marketing. Switching video cards is a lot easier than switching OSes even if all the apps are there, infact the comparison is so ludicrous I'm beginning to think you don't even believe what you're posting yourself.

Pathetic

If that was in referance to your posts, I'd have to agree.

 

[chorner]

I'm not crying about how Windows is so great; I'm not crying at all. I'm pointing out a fact that people so obviously like to stick up for the underdog; I'm making a statement that Linux is the underdog in the desktop department (and really, as a whole) in regards to the initial post laughing or wondering why in the heck a representative of Linux products would openly admit Linux's place is not in the desktop market.

Why are you even arguing with me about this, when even the head of RedHat admits this himself? Thats the only thing I do not understand.

Lets continue though shall we, this is fun

The patch part greatly applies to desktops blah blah, IIS is spreading worms. Its not IIS spreading worms anyways, the worms are spreading via IIS ... anyhow I'll cut that out, and say ... is this the OS'es fault there is a dumb kid experimenting at home with IIS when its not installed by default? Fact is, upon install of Linux (this is of course, general .. as there are a million different releases, each with their own USB mouse initialization problems haha ) there are just as many, if not more open holes than in Windows. Really, you're pretty darn safe with a Windows default install -up until the blaster worm- .. you're getting into a whole other issue which relies on the fact that these "kids installing Windows server" shouldn't have access to it in the first place as they obviously didn't pay for it; and have no clue how to secure it. Same for Linux.

So perhaps from that we can agree on one thing; Linux and Windows(server) are as "dangerous" and open to attacks as the user is 'rookie'.

Apache .... it IS better in my opinion than IIS; I personally use it and like it much better. We're talking OS'es desktop capability here though are we not? Apache is freeware available for both OS'es.

""3Dfx screwed themselves with the V5500 being so big and hot and the 6000 vaporware that would've just been bigger, hotter and noisier. nVidia bought them out because nVidia had the better hardware and better marketing. Switching video cards is a lot easier than switching OSes even if all the apps are there, infact the comparison is so ludicrous I'm beginning to think you don't even believe what you're posting yourself.""

Lets translate this .... 3Dfx made a mistake; and another company capitolized. How many of you "hate" Microsoft products, and flame them to death, yet nobody has taken over their share in the market?

Interesting question.

Some people just aren't intelligent enough to put 2 and 2 together ... apparently you're one of them

Btw, lets see you run Photoshop, Flash MX series, 3DsMax, Maya, Lightwave, or go program yourself a game based on an open API such as DirectX for Linux; oh wait there is not standard for games on Linux ... you have OpenGL granted, but even OpenGL games now still make DirectX calls (albeit, can be turned off) and well; I think the Linux "community" was in talks about creating a standard such as DirectX in Linux. Why? Because Linux is already THE BEST , and so full featured? Hummm, or wait .... alot of people are running WINE so they can run Windows IN Linux! What a joke.

Also you mention its much easier to swap hardware than an OS? If something is better, and worth the hassle there wouldn't be a problem with switching over in the first place; hassle or no hassle companies constantly turn to better and faster methods of work. Its even easier for a home user to switch OS base.

Please!

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Sweet! We have a new troll!

 

[chorner]

nah; I'm just having fun If that makes me a troll then so be it hahaha

 

[drag]

just so you know 3dmax has released code to the community, and lightwave has a network renderer for linux. And Maya has been running on linux for a long time now. Then of course you Porvay which runs on linux, Blender and bunch of other stuff like that.

Oh ya and I remember it's name. You can go and download a free trial of Softimage XSI if you want and try it out on your Redhat box. Or any other distro if your smart enough.

It's getting to the point now that if you want to sell anything serious in the 3-d market you are going to have to make it run with linux in one way or the other.\

Hummm, or wait .... alot of people are running WINE so they can run Windows IN Linux! What a joke.

The only joke here is your lack of understanding and your attitude.

Windows has it advantages and so does Linux. Get a grip.

 

[Barnaby W. Füi]

Originally posted by: chorner
nah; I'm just having fun If that makes me a troll then so be it hahaha

Being argumentative doesn't make you a troll, but saying really ignorant things and then acting as if they're not ignorant makes you look like one. (i.e. it looks like you're playing stupid just to provoke flames).

or go program yourself a game based on an open API such as DirectX for Linux; oh wait there is not standard for games on Linux ...

I think the Linux "community" was in talks about creating a standard such as DirectX in Linux.

Actually the rest of your post wasn't too trolly, but those comments were.

 

[chorner]

I was aware they were weak points to begin with but I couldn't be bothered rewording the sentence! hahaha

drag - I understand perfectly; and I never did say Linux doesn't have its advantages. I actually pointed out a few One of them, being that is fun to run and configure. 2nd, thats its free. 3rd, althought not directly, that there are about a million distros to chose from -and I did mention this-

I don't think its getting to the point where you have to program 3D apps for Linux ... not even close; although I do think thats great more of the top-tier dev. programs are being ported. Now wheres my Adobe and Macromedia stuff, as well as my DX games Just, why would I move over to Linux when it doesn't have absolutely everything I need.

If I recall there was a comment made to me that only "kids" play games; hinting that Windows was for kids. Try telling that to the majority of developers who code on their Windows workstation, then go home and relax with a good game of -insert fav game here-. Thats just ignorant to say only kids play games.

Perhaps thats why MS programmers aren't so cranky and they pump out product after product They CAN go home and chose any game on the shelf and have a blast after work haha.

We have a entire industry based on the fact that not just kids play games ... otherwise, what would be the need for the 9800XT when your -insert console here- would be all a kid needs and could afford much moreso than a $2000+ computer -or his parents on average could afford to buy for their kids use-. The day I hear "oh yeah, I need this new Radeon 9800xt for my Linux box ... my games are starting to get a little too sluggish for me" ... or the day I don't have to see guys bragging how they got their DVD's to play under Linux is the day I switch to Linux.

1 thing which is nice with Linux, is setting up user accounts, DNS, web and FTP accounts quite easily and painlessly with Linux. Although whats with the cruddy text editors? Linux users aren't the best spellers either .. gonna load up Konkeror hehehe "Konk ... doh" or Gimp ... its called Gimp for a reason; its a Gimp in Photoshops light.

Anyways, end of troll parole ... for now

 

[drag]

Ya Linux isn't a good gaming platform, wow, and there isn't some macromedia flash stuff and a couple other programs.

And that's your excuse for going on a ignorant tirade?

 

[chorner]

Its not very ignorant .. as you just partially proved my point with this last reply

Gentoo boasts faster GUI and load time performance than the rest of the Linux distros ... inadvertantly saying they're a touch slow hehehe

 

[drag]

Gentoo stuff isnt' realy faster then anybody elses. It just depends on what you want and how you have your stuff configured.

If you want all the Gui crud and everything you are used to in XP then your system is going to have similar requirements and performance as XP. If you don't want it then you can get by on a much leaner machine. Anti-aliases text, colorfull icons, thumbnailed pictures, task bar applets and animations all take cpu power, memory and if you don't have hardware accelerated card it's going to run like crap and seem very slow.

If you want to run it on a 400mhz machine it's going to seem a bit sluggish.

However right now I am running a full gui and browser on a 200mhz laptop. I have the benifit of all the modern stability, memory management on older hardware, it's just that I run a minimilezed window manager (which I prefer anyways) and it is plenty fast.

 

[chorner]

All good .. I actually run my XP box with all the eye candy turned off; and strip it down to look like Windows 2000.

If theres one cool thing with Linux though, its the customizeability of the GUI. Must admit I like the look of my Linux desktops a little more than the standard Windows look when I'm finished customizing it full ... although honestly I don't really notice it; I'm either busy reading crud on the net and chatting, designing my next webdesign, or playing games. Never really get around to looking at the desktop and admiring it much; past the initial tweaking to get it to look how I want. A good desktop wallpaper is really all I need to spice up the looks.

Anyways .... free stuff always comes with a catch all there is to it

 

[drag]

So does everything else. You think that propriatory Windows software doesn't have catches?

For instance I don't have to pay for a upgrade. I don't have to run a virus scanner or a software firewall. I don't have to pay for a hardware router. I don't have to pay thousands of dollars for the developement tools are art programs I use, and I don't have to steal them either. I can fix my bugs directly and/or they get fixed quicker. My older hardware is still usefull. I don't have to deal with blue screens of death. And security doesn't cost extra.

 

[chorner]

Uhmm BSODS are old news; just like your last unstable kernel release.

You may not have to pay, but none of the programs have the speed, polish and prossional "shine" like your average Windows program.


go read : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3119&page=1

Very unbiased and truthful; still the same old half-assed Linux it always was. Pain in the ass to get things going, that shouldn't be. I'd rather pay for my programs anyday then have to put up with the 95% of the freeware junk.

P.S- I don't run a virus scanner, or a software firewall ... I can very honestly say I have NEVER run -as in installed on my system- either of them on any of my own machines; I have however run the free online virus scanner a couple times when I wasn't sure if I had a virus or not. Guess what, I've never been infected with a virus Never been hacked into either ... and I don't run any stupid firewall. For a long time, I ran on an open IP via. cable modem. I now have a router, but my main computer I'm on runs under DMZ .... not worried one bit

I bet you don't use the art tools; or if you do you're nowhere near good anyhow. As for bugs (we call them security updates in Windows haha) Windows update handles that one very nicely .. and only takes 3 clicks total to install the critical updates, in a very timely and quick manner might I add. No need to recompile anything sometimes just a reboot ... sometimes its not required.

My older hardware is still useful too ... I run Windows 2000 on it stripped of useless services, and no GUI 'flare' with no monitor, keyb or mouse and sit in in my closet running Apache/PHP/MySQL .... hasn't needed a reboot ever, except for when I know I have no use for it for long durations of time and shut it off myself. Its no problem either, as I got a legit copy of 2000 free anyway haha

 

[Sunner]

Geez, just ignore him for crying out loud, what's the point in trying to talk to him?

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: Smilin

But this one:

The reason for this is MS support is there for just that 'support'. With Redhat it's there to be their only source of 'making money'.

I hope you don't seriously think MS is supporting it for the sake of support?
They're supporting it to look good to the public, or in the end, make money, no more no less.

I'd say a developer who gives away his program, then fixes a bug if you find one, that's support for the sake of support, when company supports something, it's always about money in the end, and this goes for MS, Sun, RedHat, etc etc.

Ok that's true I suppose. The point I was trying to make with that is that MS can provide the top level of support that's needed. The idea is to make their products easy to use and their customers happy. They can afford to take a loss in their support department if they have to. It's not necessary for tech support to be a profit making department which is why they are able to do 24/7 and hire the best minds that money can buy. I'm not one of those MS guys that's going to stand on my soap box and shout 'linux suxors!'. I see merit in the OS. Tech support on the other hand is a pretty black and white issue for me - MS has arguably the best support in the business for enterprise customers. If you actually DO pay MS for support through a premier contract you are getting the absolute best, bar none. It's 2 minutes to talk to a tech and if the problem isn't solved in four hours (the typical initial response time for other companies) someone from MS is boarding a plane to come to your site.

 

[drag]

How much does a premier contract cost you?

And at my work they actually had a guy that actually help design the IBM s/390 mainframe architecture fly out from texas with a couple other people to check out a difficult problem once. (now this was still a special case and a long time before I got there and it was when the s/390 series was brand new stuff, but still impressive for a company of the size of IBM)

At my older job we were having a problem figuring out a solution to a SMB share problem with our OS X macs over the phone with the techs. After a couple of hours the tech people gave up figuring out and we had the main programmer who actually developed that part of the OS on the phone and they figured it out, (and I suspect that they incorporated a fix into one of the 10.2.X updates, but I don't know for sure)

Honest to god.

So what MS does isn't realy all that special... But I understand most tech places REALY want to help you (no sarcasm). When I worked phone tech I realy wanted to help the customer, and probably would of made it far in the company, except that phone tech sucks all get out and I thought working with a mainframe would be cooler when I got the offer.

If you realy want to get technical, IBM probably offers the gold standard when it comes to support. It also costs a butt-load, which is why I ask about the price of the "premier" contract. The cost of the OS contract alone run a few thousand dollars a month. But then again this is a computer system that "calls home" all by it's self and sends reports directly to the tech's itself if it notices any anomolies. Usually the most anybody has to deal with the tech people is when one of them calls us and asks "Have you noticed anything funny with your computer lately?". First time I heard it dial out I about freaked. Thought it was getting hacked or something.

As far as linux goes, since you have full access to the insides of the OS the techs that you hire to run the OS(at least the top level people) should be intemently aware of how the OS operates. At least as much as the average windows developer. Hence the monicer of "Unix/Linux Guru". In all actuallity most developers get paid for what they do, and they do this buy working for a company that uses linux. So if you want you can actually have a kernel developer or a SAMBA contributer or a security expert working for you. So the situation is a bit different and may not be the optimal choice for many companies for obvious reasons. But that's why RedHat exists and why they are one of the few commercial distros that is actually profitable.