recommend a mini-itx case?

[yetidaddy]

I was going to pick an inexpensive case but most of the brands I never heard of them.
This one seem to be a good brand. I'm stuck between these two brands.

IN WIN BP655
http://www.in-win.us/products_pccase_series.php?cat_id=1&series_id=47

Apex
http://www.apextechusa.com/products.asp?pID=115

Rosewill don't cost a lot but i don't like shuttle form type cases.
The main requirement are, it has to have low bracket pci-express, regular size dvd and enough power.

I plan to throw a T2600 cpu, the laptop one, my mb support it
4gb of ram
120gb 2.5 HDD
5450 ati video. I was wondering if 150w will be enough.

If you know other cases in the 30-80 range let me know thanks.

 

[Zap]

In Win usually makes good quality cases and mediocre PSUs.

The Apex PSU is an Allied 250W. It is quiet, but doesn't seem to be very good quality. Thermaltake rebranded it as their own, and labeled it as a 200W which is probably closer to the true output. The expansion slot on the Apex is NOT low profile. This case has no fans for ventilation other than what is in the PSU.

150W will be fine as long as it really is 150W.

Have you considered the Antec ISK series cases? There's two different styles and they are available with 60 or 150W PSUs. They take low profile cards. The one thing is that they use a slim optical drive. That shouldn't be much of a problem if you don't need Blu Ray or faster speeds (Blu Ray slim drives are expensive, all slim drives are slow compared to normal sized). The thing about the Antec case is that it is REALLY beefy. Seriously, I picked one up yesterday and it gave the impression that I could step on it and wouldn't be able to flatten it (didn't try, wasn't my case). Antec usually does decent PSUs, plus their ISK cases have decent airflow and is supposedly really quiet.

 

[yetidaddy]

Thanks for the suggestion. I was looking into buying a laptop dvd to ide converter or if they have an dvd drive with sata for cheap. Does having no dvd drive save more power? Like the Netbook ones?
Well, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into the antec and mounts to see if I can put it on the back of my monitor.

 

[CurseTheSky]

Not having a DVD drive will save some power, but not much. If you're planning to use it for DVDs consistently, I'd throw one in. If you're just planning on playing DVDs on a rare occasion or just for installing software, an external USB DVD drive should be fine.

 

[Zap]

Optical drives don't use much power when idling, and slim/notebook optical drives use less power than desktop drives whether idling or spinning.

There are slimline drives with SATA, but it doesn't use the normal SATA power plug of hard drives so you'll need an adapter cable like this one.

So, you're wanting to VESA mount it on the back of your monitor? That changes things!

This case has a slimline optical drive bay but you'll lose the ability for the video card.

This case (also available in black) is a really good one for monitor mounting but you lose the video card as well as optical drive, and you have to purchase the power supply (Pico PSU, up to 150W) separately.

If you monitor mount the system, you also may want a USB optical drive because it can be a pain to access the system to swap discs when it is behind your monitor.

How about this case? Basically the case becomes the monitor stand. Looks like it can take a normal desktop optical drive, not a slim-line.

You already have your motherboard?

 

[yetidaddy]

sorry I haven't replied back in a while. These cases look great, what keyword did you used to find them? The motherboard I have currently have vga port, I might need a video card for warcraft 3 and starcraft 2 gaming though. I also want to play some hd-movies on there. The situation with the dvd is ok, I won't use a dvd that much. Thanks both for reply.

 

[bobross419]

How about this case? Basically the case becomes the monitor stand. Looks like it can take a normal desktop optical drive, not a slim-line.

You already have your motherboard?

That thing would be great with one of those cheap HannsG 25" 1080p monitors for a bedroom HTPC. Nice find!

 

[Zap]

These cases look great, what keyword did you used to find them?

I already knew they existed, from browsing ITX cases. I'm still trying to find that perfect ITX case. 🙁

 

[yetidaddy]

I should've bought the antec isk 300 when i still had a change. It is $85-$90 now, when it used to be $74-$80.

I'm looking into Winsis mini itx cases, but I'm not sure those are any good.

 

[piasabird]

Maybe this site will give you some ideas. Also look for Flex-ATX cases.

http://www.directron.com/miniitx.html

I have purchased gear at this store in the past.

 

[yetidaddy]

I saw some evercase mini itx cases with mounting brackets options.
The problem is no one make the bracket anymore, so buying one would be the same as buying another case w/o brackets.

I wonder if there's any do it yourself homemade bracket to lcd. I search that but they only show wall to lcd.

 

[hans007]

i would get one of the smaller in-wins now that they have 160W psus (they used to have 120W).

something like the BM648.

I had one of those for a while and its quite nice. can support a 3.5" drive for hard drive, and a full 5.25" optical or a slim laptop one.

The BP655 is slightly cheaper, but it is larger, doesnt support optical laptop drives, and also it still only has 1 real 3.5" bay (it has a weird slim 3.5" bay that you cant put normal hard drives in..so its useless).

Newegg sells a lot of the BM series cases
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-226-_-Product

I had that one in particular.

150W will be way more than enough for a T2600 cpu. when i was running ITX i had run an athlon II x4 620 with a full size hard drive and an ITX 780G board , and 4gb ram on 120W.

With a T2600 and just a 5450 you might even be able to get away with 60W since you are using a laptop hard drive too.

 

[Zap]

I should've bought the antec isk 300 when i still had a change. It is $85-$90 now, when it used to be $74-$80.

The first ones that came out had only 60W PSUs. You might be looking at the more expensive ones that have 150W PSUs. I don't know if Antec discontinued the lower wattage unit or if places aren't carrying it as much, since most people think you need way more PSU than you actually do in a mini ITX rig.

 

[cbn]

I already knew they existed, from browsing ITX cases. I'm still trying to find that perfect ITX case. 🙁

Hi Zap,

What major hurdles do you think exist in the gaming market for mini-itx?

(This is a question coming from someone who is a low end consumer and not associated with the IT industry in any way past or present)

 

[yetidaddy]

I found some cases with mounts AND a bonus pci-express card slot. They had to be special ordered from CA. One of my concern is the pci-express card slot because onboard graphics isn't enough for Halo, DoTA, Starcraft 2 and etc. The mount option is nice if I want to build another one to replace my "workstation. All of these links are helping me thanks a lot.

Computer BottleNeck
As my opinion, I think mini-itx lack the pci-express slot to really be gaming pc. The cost of one with a pci-express + decent CPU would cost the same as a gaming laptop and you can carry it around easier(The gaming laptop). Mini-itx are mainly used for hometheatre right now that have HDMI inputs. As for a decent gaming pc, MicroATX might be better solution to gaming. Whether you are bringing it over to a LAN party, or playing at home, for budget MicroATX are cheap motherboards. They can also be put into a small flex case like an mini-itx so they are good for saving space and playing games.

 

[Zap]

What major hurdles do you think exist in the gaming market for mini-itx?

The three major hurdles are:

1) Enthusiast behavior and beliefs

Many enthusiasts have a difficult time believing that smaller can be as good, as if size mattered in performance. Micro ATX went through this phase, and it is arguable that it still isn't stuck somewhere in that limbo. You can build a micro ATX computer in a mini tower that can house a highly overclocked socket 1366 with two of the largest and fastest Nvidia or ATI graphics card, holding several SSDs and numerous terabytes of storage. What more can anyone need? Well, now you can do a single graphics card (dual GPU with the 5970) and slightly overclocked socket 1156 with multiple SSDs and multiple terabytes of data in a mini ITX form factor. Still, people are buying big ATX cases even if most of the drive bays and expansion slots remain empty for the life of the computer. Heck, I'm guilty of it myself.

2) Manufacturer inertia

It takes money to make new products and it is risky to explore new niches when most enthusiasts are still pretty happy buying big tower cases and big motherboards.

3) Confluence of necessary components

You need multiple vendors supporting the form factor through multiple generations of products in motherboards, cases and whatever power supply the cases are designed to support. Right now there are only two "enthusiast" level (and that's open for discussion, but I deem it "mid-range plus") cases, one of which is barely available and the more available one uses SFX sized PSUs which has only one barely available "enthusiast" level unit. Motherboard choices are dominated by only one brand, with a scattering of competing units.

The cases are Silverstone's SG05/SG06, plus the new and sold out Lian Li PC-Q08. The upcoming ones are the Silverstone SG07 and the Lan Gear unnamed future offering. The SFX PSUs that Silverstone uses has only one higher wattage offering suitable for dual PCIe power plugs, and that is the new and sold out Silverstone ST45SF. Other offerings are realistically good for just one PCIe power plug. I'm including the higher wattage SFX units from Ultra, SilenX and Athena Power in that list because I don't believe them to have sufficient +12v or sufficient quality to compete. The motherboard manufacturer, of course, is Zotac with over half the enthusiast ITX offerings on the market.

So, motherboards are coming along nicely, but case/PSUs are lagging behind.

Anyone have manufacturing ties and or seed money? I've got tons of ideas for ITX cases/PSUs! :hmm:

 

[yetidaddy]

I hit the motherloads of itx cases. Zap, you're right there isn't a lot of manufacturer of them. I finally decided on the Evercase E0528-S17. Hopefully, I can order the mounting racket for it and make an all-in-one pc.

What other ideas do you have for mini-itx? So far, I have an idea for a lan-party one, VCR HTPC, and All-In-One PC. what else?

 

[jaydee]

So, motherboards are coming along nicely, but case/PSUs are lagging behind.

I'm going to mildly disagree with this last comment. I think the Silverstone and Lian Li cases are VERY good for what they are, for what I can see them used for. For me, the shortage is motherboards, no good real solutions for AMD 780/785/790/890, a platform that will actually be useful for more than one generation of cpu's...

Of course, the more case/psu's out there, the better, and quality desktop like (low height, square footprint) or upright mini-ITX cases seem to be lacking. But I believe the dearth of non-775/1156 boards are holding us back right. Holding me back anyway. And honestly, I know there's not a ton out there yet, but the mini-ITX motherboards always seem to be behind in the latest features (USB3, SATA6...)

Edit: I also think that CULV versions of cpu's would help, as mini-ITX for many is synomonous with cool and quiet.

 

[cbn]

The three major hurdles are:

1) Enthusiast behavior and beliefs

Many enthusiasts have a difficult time believing that smaller can be as good, as if size mattered in performance.

What about ITX mainboard overclockability? I haven't read all the reviews but aren't we still at a point where durability is below micro ATX and ATX?

3) Confluence of necessary components

You need multiple vendors supporting the form factor through multiple generations of products in motherboards, cases and whatever power supply the cases are designed to support. Right now there are only two "enthusiast" level (and that's open for discussion, but I deem it "mid-range plus") cases, one of which is barely available and the more available one uses SFX sized PSUs which has only one barely available "enthusiast" level unit. Motherboard choices are dominated by only one brand, with a scattering of competing units.

The cases are Silverstone's SG05/SG06, plus the new and sold out Lian Li PC-Q08. The upcoming ones are the Silverstone SG07 and the Lan Gear unnamed future offering. The SFX PSUs that Silverstone uses has only one higher wattage offering suitable for dual PCIe power plugs, and that is the new and sold out Silverstone ST45SF. Other offerings are realistically good for just one PCIe power plug. I'm including the higher wattage SFX units from Ultra, SilenX and Athena Power in that list because I don't believe them to have sufficient +12v or sufficient quality to compete. The motherboard manufacturer, of course, is Zotac with over half the enthusiast ITX offerings on the market.

You make a good point here. DFI didn't release a P55 mini-itx board (requiring a discrete video card) until they saw a SFF case on the market fully capable of supporting it.

 

[Zap]

What other ideas do you have for mini-itx? So far, I have an idea for a lan-party one, VCR HTPC, and All-In-One PC. what else?

I have ideas for two gaming chassis, NAS (similar to Fractal Designs but I had the idea independently), HTPC and some workstations (but now there are a few decent ones). Some ideas aren't very fleshed out, but on one of my gaming chassis ideas, I got around to even trying to build one. Didn't get very far, but that was from lack of time/patience rather than it being a bad idea.

I'm going to mildly disagree with this last comment. I think the Silverstone and Lian Li cases are VERY good for what they are, for what I can see them used for. For me, the shortage is motherboards, no good real solutions for AMD 780/785/790/890, a platform that will actually be useful for more than one generation of cpu's...

Well, Sapphire announced a 785 chipset ITX board, but it has yet to manifest itself at a retailer.

And for the record, I disagree with your disagreement. ^_^ For just a moment, disregard platform, brand and model, and then count how many distinct examples exist that can be classified as "enthusiast" and which you can purchase today.

With cases, you can just get the Silverstone twins SG05 and SG06. The SG07 isn't out yet, nor is the Lan Gear. The Lian Li is "out" but the first batch sold out and who knows when more will be available. So, two examples.

With motherboards, I count around twelve. Intel has one, Minix one, Sapphire one, ECS one, DFI one and Zotac around SEVEN (yes, three are really similar, but have different part numbers and are available concurrently)!

But I believe the dearth of non-775/1156 boards are holding us back right. Holding me back anyway.

Yup, just you. :twisted:

Edit: I also think that CULV versions of cpu's would help, as mini-ITX for many is synomonous with cool and quiet.

Ahhh, but this adds another piece to the puzzle, CPU manufacturers. CULV style CPUs tend to not be socketed, meaning they have to be soldered on to the motherboard and thus are not upgradable. Intel's latest desktop CPUs are actually really good in this respect because regardless of their published TDP, under idle and low load they are really power efficient. Of course you use AMD CPUs so you haven't had the opportunity to experience this for yourself. ()🙂

What about ITX mainboard overclockability? I haven't read all the reviews but aren't we still at a point where durability is below micro ATX and ATX?

Yes. There is the problem of the physical amount of space that is needed to supply more power to CPUs. DFI is at, what, 120W or so peak? They ran out of room on top of the PCB so some of the VRM parts are located underneath.

 

[cbn]

I have ideas for two gaming chassis, NAS (similar to Fractal Designs but I had the idea independently), HTPC and some workstations (but now there are a few decent ones). Some ideas aren't very fleshed out, but on one of my gaming chassis ideas, I got around to even trying to build one. Didn't get very far, but that was from lack of time/patience rather than it being a bad idea.

Zap, Have you considered patenting any of these ideas? (You can keep the answer to yourself)

(I haven't written any patents myself, but from what I understand simply having a good knowledge of "Prior Art" can be useful in other ways even if the patent doesn't get accepted)

 

[cbn]

Yes. There is the problem of the physical amount of space that is needed to supply more power to CPUs. DFI is at, what, 120W or so peak? They ran out of room on top of the PCB so some of the VRM parts are located underneath.

Thanks for this good answer. I didn't realize they put VRMs underneath the PCB.

 

[jaydee]

With cases, you can just get the Silverstone twins SG05 and SG06. The SG07 isn't out yet, nor is the Lan Gear. The Lian Li is "out" but the first batch sold out and who knows when more will be available. So, two examples.

With motherboards, I count around twelve. Intel has one, Minix one, Sapphire one, ECS one, DFI one and Zotac around SEVEN (yes, three are really similar, but have different part numbers and are available concurrently)!

I can get most of the cases in different colors, they have different part numbers and are available concurrently!

But seriously, saying that the SG05 and SG06 are the only viable enthusiast mini-ITX cases available right now just isn't true. First, the Lian Li Q08 *is* available on newegg, black is the only color that's sold out right now, silver and red are available. Secondly, I like the Q07 case that's been out for awhile now. Apex MI-008 has been getting good reviews (since we're talking about enthusiasts, we can always swap out the psu). Antec has some interesting cases with external power supplies that you've already mentioned.

Also, think of it this way: My choice of CPU is limited to what motherboard chipset is available in mini-ITX format right now. That's a pretty big thing don't you think? What limitations are you facing with your "lack" of mini-ITX cases? And as you mentioned, if you're motivated enough, you can even build your own mini-ITX case to whatever dimensions you like. But you can't exactly build your own motherboard.

It's not that I'm a huge AMD fanboi, my main system at home is Intel based. I just like what AMD is doing right now with keeping sockets around for more than one generation. I'd rather just upgrade my CPU, than the whole motherboard...

Ahhh, but this adds another piece to the puzzle, CPU manufacturers. CULV style CPUs tend to not be socketed, meaning they have to be soldered on to the motherboard and thus are not upgradable. Intel's latest desktop CPUs are actually really good in this respect because regardless of their published TDP, under idle and low load they are really power efficient. Of course you use AMD CPUs so you haven't had the opportunity to experience this for yourself.

Ok, so is this an inherent trait of CULV's, that they have to be soldered into motherboards, or is that just how Intel is doing it right now? I realize the how well full-on Lynnfield and Clarkdale cpu's do at low power/idle situations, however if that was the entire story, they wouldn't be releasing ULV cpu's for said architecture, which they are. In other words, yes, we can get lower. And the lower power draw we can get, the more intriguing the current mini-ITX cases become with smaller and/or external power supplies.

 

[Zap]

But seriously, saying that the SG05 and SG06 are the only viable enthusiast mini-ITX cases available right now just isn't true. First, the Lian Li Q08 *is* available on newegg, black is the only color that's sold out right now, silver and red are available. Secondly, I like the Q07 case that's been out for awhile now. Apex MI-008 has been getting good reviews (since we're talking about enthusiasts, we can always swap out the psu).

I wasn't aware that the other colors came into stock. Initially only the black was available, and it went OOS.

I don't consider the Q07 or the Apex/Thermaltake cases to be enthusiast level. Not only are they severely limited for graphics cards, the Apex cases (I own two of them) have terrible airflow and barely any room for a CPU cooler. Two friends of mine use the Apex cases for their LAN rigs and I think both of them had graphics cards die in them - one for sure because it just happened this week, a single slot Radeon 4650.

What limitations are you facing with your "lack" of mini-ITX cases?

I would be using a mini ITX rig for travel to LAN parties. I would want a decent graphics card in it. Currently the graphics cards I'm using in various systems are GTS 250, GTX 260 and GTX 285, and I would like to stick with GTX 260 as minimum because I'm accustomed to that level of performance. Thus, I need a chassis that can handle a 10.5" dual slot graphics card with enough ventilation to keep it cool while being able to also handle a PSU that is sufficient to power a system with such a graphics card. Other than that, my needs aren't that much... dual core CPU and two HDDs... anyways, being able to handle a single large graphics card along with decent ventilation is key, IMO.

Right now the only mini ITX chassis that can do what I want it to do without having to mod it is the Lian Li PC-Q08. The Silverstone SG06 can be modded to fit the longer card and Silverstone came out with the ST45SF PSU that can power such a card (though it is OOS everywhere AFAIK).

So yeah, the PC-Q08 is it pretty much.

Ok, so is this an inherent trait of CULV's, that they have to be soldered into motherboards, or is that just how Intel is doing it right now?

That's how a lot of companies have done lower powered parts for a while. I don't think it is anything inherent to being low voltage, power or performance. It's just the way it is done. All the current VIA CPUs, the Intel Atom, all the CULV notebooks are all soldered to the PCB.

 

[cbn]

Micro ATX went through this phase, and it is arguable that it still isn't stuck somewhere in that limbo.

How does Micro ATX compare to Mini-ITX as far as overclocking goes?