Receiver shutting off from loud bangs/explosions!

[KeithTalent]

So I recently picked up this set of speakers (Klipsch HD300 5.1 setup): http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/hd-theater-300-overview/

to go with this receiver (Yamaha HTR-6230): http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=5028494&CTID=5000400

All signs point to them being compatible and everything appears to be hooked up correctly (sounds great when it's running) but it seems to short out when exceptionally loud things happen on screen. For example the two car crashes in Adaptation and the lightning that crackles when someone comes from the future in The Terminator and it just happened on The Edge when the plane gets hit by a flock of birds. It shuts off and when I turn it back on it says "check sp connection" or something like that.

After a bit of reading I thought maybe the impedance was set too high, however both are 8 ohm compatible; still, I changed the receiver to 6 ohm output, but it did not fix the problem.

I'm kind of stumped now, so I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on how I may be able to fix this?

Thanks in advance!

KT

 

[nickbits]

Bad receiver?

 

[KeithTalent]

Bad receiver?

All of a sudden? I've been using it for several months, just with different speakers, with no issues whatsoever. :hmm:

KT

 

[vshah]

disconnect all the speakers and add them back one at a time. it may be one particular channel that is causing the issue.

 

[electroju]

Is the subwoofer connected to the wall outlet or the outlet on the receiver. If the subwoofer is connected to the receiver's AC outlet, you have to remove it and connect it to the AC wall outlet. Another issue could be that the amplifiers are putting out DC voltage that could damage your speakers, so it detected it and turned it self off. The DC voltage could be caused by the subwoofer, so disconnect it and see if it makes a difference. Third issue it could be is cold solder joints and/or a loose connection inside the receiver. Though the amplifiers could be over loaded, so your receiver does not have enough power to handle its rated watts.

You can try to set a high pass filter for all five channels at 150 Hz or 200 Hz, but the subwoofer have to be with in 5 feet from each speaker. The high pass filter will stop bass frequencies which are harder on the amplifier because it requires more current compared to high frequencies.

A speaker that has a impedance of 8 ohms is the normal impedance that manufactures uses in their design, but the impedance changes through the frequency range.

 

[alcoholbob]

Set it back to 8ohms. The lower ohm modes on receivers do absolutely nothing except enable a hard power limiter and make even easier to send it into clipping.

 

[KeithTalent]

Thanks for the suggestions guys, I'll give those a shot later today (need to get ready for work now).

I did try disconnecting the subwoofer while watching The Terminator and it did not help. It is plugged into an extension cord, not into the receiver.

I'm not sure what all of that high pass stuff means, so no idea how to do that. :hmm:

KT

 

[vi edit]

I'm not sure what all of that high pass stuff means, so no idea how to do that.

Most receivers have the ability to set your speakers to either a "large" or "small" setting or something like "full range". The "large" and "full range" settings send all frequencies to the speakers. This also includes low frequency stuff (below 40hz) that is very difficult for your receiver to drive to your non-powered speakers. With the small satelites that you have, they can't even go below 150hz so having it set to large/full range is doing nothing but possibly over-driving your amp.

Set all channels to "small" and see if that helps.

 

[KeithTalent]

Most receivers have the ability to set your speakers to either a "large" or "small" setting or something like "full range". The "large" and "full range" settings send all frequencies to the speakers. This also includes low frequency stuff (below 40hz) that is very difficult for your receiver to drive to your non-powered speakers. With the small satelites that you have, they can't even go below 150hz so having it set to large/full range is doing nothing but possibly over-driving your amp.

Set all channels to "small" and see if that helps.

Ahh cool, I'll try that, thanks for the explanation!

One more quick question: what kind of wire should be connecting my subwoofer to the receiver? I am just using the left audio from a set of Red/White/Yellow cables, is that sufficient or should I be purchasing a specific type of cable?

KT

 

[Modelworks]

Narrow down the cause.
Turn off and disconnect the subwoofer from the receiver , does the problem still occur ?

Looking at the yamaha site from what I can see it looks like it is using a class D amp which are usually pretty good at handling varying impedance.
What class D does not like though is feedback caused by the wires being too small that connect the speakers to the outputs. So during loud moments in a movie and more current is being pushed along the wire it results in a sort of reflection on the wire that can come back like a wave at the amplifier dropping the impedance to near zero levels momentarily , enough to trigger protect circuits. You don't need anything expensive for wire, anything at least 14AWG should be fine as long as you don't go over about 50ft per wire.

The cable you have from the receiver to the subwoofer is probably fine for that connection.

 

[vshah]

the rca cable you are using should be fine for the subwoofer

 

[KeithTalent]

Thanks guys. That's interesting information Modelworks, very interesting. I am using this wire: http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/produ...leardxav252-en but none of the connections are all that long.

I did think, when I was preparing the wire and connecting it up, that I had stripped out some of the copper wire a little more than in other spots (there seemed to be fewer fibres, or whatever in that one connection) so maybe that is making the difference. I did not realize it could make a difference, but I'll have to check that when I get home.

KT

 

[Modelworks]

That wire should be fine if not very long. Check the connections because Class D amps are more sensitive to wiring issues like a stray wire strand making an intermittent connection than are class A/B

 

[KeithTalent]

That wire should be fine if not very long. Check the connections because Class D amps are more sensitive to wiring issues like a stray wire strand making an intermittent connection than are class A/B

Will do man, thanks. It took me so long to cut and strip the wire, then get everything setup, I really did not do a good double-check of things; I just wanted to watch a movie!

I'll give it a good check when I get home tonight.

Thanks again to everyone! I'll let you know if it works out!

KT

 

[DaveSimmons]

This happened to me with a new Onkyo a few years back and it was caused by a stray strand of wire.

 

[jtvang125]

Almost certain it's a stray strand of wire. It's not enough to throw the protection at low volumes but will at high volume or short loud peaks.

 

[aphex]

It shits off and when I turn it back on it says "check sp connection" or something like that.

I wish you the best of luck in fixing this, but I couldn't help but chuckle at your awesome typo :twisted:

 

[KeithTalent]

I wish you the best of luck in fixing this, but I couldn't help but chuckle at your awesome typo :twisted:

Lol, whoops. I'm usually so good at checking my posts before submitting. :$

It sounds like I may just have a stray wire, which is awesome if that turns out to be the case. Unfortunately I have to wait until after work to check.

KT

 

[KeithTalent]

Yes! It was stray wires, a few of them actually. I cleaned everything up back there, popped in The Terminator again, and I was able to successfully see Schwarzenegger's naked ass without the receiver shutting down! :awe:

Thanks for all of the help guys, very much appreciated! :beer;

KT

 

[alcoholbob]

I wasn't aware Yamaha used Class D in any of its home audio receivers. I find no information that suggests the HTR-6230 is Class D, either.

I do know, that out of all the receiver manufacturers, Yamaha has the biggest linear power supplies and capacitance in it's flagship lines, using exclusively Class A/B designs.

 

[Modelworks]

I wasn't aware Yamaha used Class D in any of its home audio receivers. I find no information that suggests the HTR-6230 is Class D, either.

I do know, that out of all the receiver manufacturers, Yamaha has the biggest linear power supplies and capacitance in it's flagship lines, using exclusively Class A/B designs.

One easy way to tell when an amplifier is class D is by the power ratings.
When you see an amplifier listed as 500Watts RMS, or roughly 250 real watts, but consumption is listed as 240 watts there is no way they can do that with class A/B . The best class A/B design would need about 335 watts just to power the amp, plus another 20-30 watts for the support circuitry so about 375watts if it were a class A/B design. . So they are either lying about the specifications or they are using something other than class A/B. Class D can be 93% efficient making it require about 268 watts to power the amps and I suspect it is a little less than 25 watts per channel continuous.

 

[electroju]

One easy way to tell when an amplifier is class D is by the power ratings.
When you see an amplifier listed as 500Watts RMS, or roughly 250 real watts, but consumption is listed as 240 watts there is no way they can do that with class A/B . The best class A/B design would need about 335 watts just to power the amp, plus another 20-30 watts for the support circuitry so about 375watts if it were a class A/B design. . So they are either lying about the specifications or they are using something other than class A/B. Class D can be 93% efficient making it require about 268 watts to power the amps and I suspect it is a little less than 25 watts per channel continuous.

False and talking about bull shit. Marketing will advertise that the model they are selling is using a digital amplifier. This means a form of class-D. All companies are governed by marketing. If you want to step up to a business that is governed by engineers, you will have to spend the money and a lot of money. Any company that is governed by marketing does not care that it is not technically possible to get 500 watts total output from a puny power supply. They are care more about the watts and does not matter if they state peak watts as watts to advertise the product. Marketing also does not care if they sugar coat the product by stating digital amplifier because it is different to stupid customers. Just think that marketing is an evil alien coming to exterminate humans and engineers as one of us.

I suggest have a look at NAD Electronics products if you want a good example what a company governed by engineers and not governed by marketing.

 

[alcoholbob]

The power supply rating is governed by the FTC. What a manufacturer claims on its marketing literature is a separate topic.

Also, there is no consistency between manufacturer claims. Some measure output 20 Hz - 20 KHz at X percent THD, while others measure power output at 1 KHz. They also vary in their cutoff point--some measure at 0.03 percent THD, others as high as 0.09 percent THD.

Also the power supply rating doesn't tell you everything. Some amplifier sections are more efficient (I've seen anywhere from 45 to 65 percent for Class A/B).

In addition, manufacturers have two other choices of increasing power output. One is of upping the total capacitance by adding more capacitor caps. The "lag" usually associated with a receiver turning on is the capacitors charging up from the wall. This provides additional power reserves for a receiver. I've seen anywhere from 15,000 uF (some entry-level Pioneer receivers) to 80,000 uF (Yamaha RX-Z11). The other option is a high-powered pre-amp section with a lot of voltage, although this really only works with 1 KHz tests and typically does not hold up on 20 Hz - 20 KHz sweeps.

Finally, the FTC rating is simply power handling under a given set of performance requirements. It does not mean the PSU can't handle drawing more power from the wall. There are feedback methods to clean up the "dirty" power from an overdrawn PSU.

...and no, that Yamaha receiver is not Class D. Yamaha's home receivers are all Class AB.

 

[electroju]

The power supply rating is governed by the FTC. What a manufacturer claims on its marketing literature is a separate topic.

Also, there is no consistency between manufacturer claims. Some measure output 20 Hz - 20 KHz at X percent THD, while others measure power output at 1 KHz. They also vary in their cutoff point--some measure at 0.03 percent THD, others as high as 0.09 percent THD.

Also the power supply rating doesn't tell you everything. Some amplifier sections are more efficient (I've seen anywhere from 45 to 65 percent for Class A/B).

In addition, manufacturers have two other choices of increasing power output. One is of upping the total capacitance by adding more capacitor caps. The "lag" usually associated with a receiver turning on is the capacitors charging up from the wall. This provides additional power reserves for a receiver. I've seen anywhere from 15,000 uF (some entry-level Pioneer receivers) to 80,000 uF (Yamaha RX-Z11). The other option is a high-powered pre-amp section with a lot of voltage, although this really only works with 1 KHz tests and typically does not hold up on 20 Hz - 20 KHz sweeps.

Finally, the FTC rating is simply power handling under a given set of performance requirements. It does not mean the PSU can't handle drawing more power from the wall. There are feedback methods to clean up the "dirty" power from an overdrawn PSU.

...and no, that Yamaha receiver is not Class D. Yamaha's home receivers are all Class AB.

Again bull shit. the lag that you say is caused by a protection circuit for the speakers, the delay of the amplifier, and a soft turn on to protect the main circuit and the electronics from in-rush currents. Capacitors can charge almost instantly. Also having a lot of capacitance like 80,000 microfarads is not enough. It is there for peak, but not for continuous.

FTC states peak for one channel and not for all channels. Also it is not continuous.

Energy of conservation states that you can not use more power than you put into it unless it is nuclear. I am still correct that the AV receiver or any amplifier can not output more than it consumes. If you want to do it right, do it by what I am saying instead of the manufactures are telling you. Do this by checking the wattage that it consumes preferably in VA. Then minus for the electronic or the processor consumption which could be 60 to 120 watts. Next divide the wattage by the amount of channels and multiply the wattage with efficiency that could be 50 to 65 percent or the best 75 percent.

To clean up power, both an inductor and capacitors are used. Feedbacks are used in amplifiers to increase the loudness after it came out of the output.

Yes there are tons of ways to measure watts that manufactures use. Testing the amplifier with 1 KHz is not better than the full sweep of 20 to 20000 hertz. If the amplifier does not consume enough watts, it can not output any more than it consumed. It does not matter how fancy the measurements are.

 

[alcoholbob]

You are real talkative today, aren't you?