Reason why HP sacked webOS...

Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
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If that's all there is to it, someone on the board needs to cut this guy's rope too. True, there's a point where you have to cut your losses....but doing it this early on wasted a lot of money, but perhaps saved HP's brand recognition from losing...the down side is...if they are getting out of the business, why didn't they milk those tablets for a ton of cash in Q4 by slashing prices then to the $250-299 range and undercut everyone else?
 

mnewsham

Lifer
Oct 2, 2010
14,539
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If that's all there is to it, someone on the board needs to cut this guy's rope too. True, there's a point where you have to cut your losses....but doing it this early on wasted a lot of money, but perhaps saved HP's brand recognition from losing...the down side is...if they are getting out of the business, why didn't they milk those tablets for a ton of cash in Q4 by slashing prices then to the $250-299 range and undercut everyone else?

This, while the article hits some relevant points I think there is a lot we just don't know.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
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If that's all there is to it, someone on the board needs to cut this guy's rope too. True, there's a point where you have to cut your losses....but doing it this early on wasted a lot of money, but perhaps saved HP's brand recognition from losing...the down side is...if they are getting out of the business, why didn't they milk those tablets for a ton of cash in Q4 by slashing prices then to the $250-299 range and undercut everyone else?

Because if they drag on production, it'll undoubtedly cut more into their budgets. If they cease production, investors would be suspicious, and they still have to cover costs of services during those months.

The best course of action would be to cut it off as soon as possible so that they wouldn't be hit by the costs of operating the webOS business for the next few months, which could turn out to cost more than pushing things away at $99 now, and not to mention $99 now sells better than a few months later when quad-core tablets hit the market, and everything takes a nose dive.

I think it's logical and reasonable that they do it now rather than a week later.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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I get the impression they knew it was a dud from the getgo. But hoped maybe the market would take otherwise. Or they were bound by contractual obligations to purchase the components and decided to toss it out there and see what happens. When it crapped the bed, they jumped out as soon as possible.
 

sm625

Diamond Member
May 6, 2011
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Pigman from HP gets together with pigman from Apple. They go to the golf course. HP pigman says ok we will kill webOS once the palm deal goes through. In return, you buy $x billion in services from us. If you dont, we open source the whole thing. So HP pigman gets to be the hero that raked in the big $$ Apple contract, while in reality he was a Gordon Gekko that slaughtered an entire business and may very well destroy HP.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Pigman from HP gets together with pigman from Apple. They go to the golf course. HP pigman says ok we will kill webOS once the palm deal goes through. In return, you buy $x billion in services from us. If you dont, we open source the whole thing. So HP pigman gets to be the hero that raked in the big $$ Apple contract, while in reality he was a Gordon Gekko that slaughtered an entire business and may very well destroy HP.

What is Apple going to buy from HP that costs billions of dollars? Given the sharp increase in value of mobile patents as well as Google acquiring their own hardware manufacturer, it's likely that one of the other third party manufacturers will want to snap up Palm for the patents and the OS itself. I've read some convincing arguments that Samsung is likely to want both. It's possible that HP might get as much, if not more, in selling the Palm assets than they paid for them in the first place.
 

xXFaNtAsMaXx

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Nov 26, 2004
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I just can't wrap my head around why they launched such an aggressive ad campaign for it with the celebs they used in each ad, and then like a month or so later, they just throw the whole thing away like it was some sort of secret plan since the beginning.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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HP
-Wanted to be Dell, bought Compaq
-Wanted to be Apple, bought Palm
-Wants to be IBM, bought Autonomy

This company simply can't figure out what it is, every new CEO tries to make it into something else, ends up wasting billions in the process, and having customers wonder if HP knows what the hell they are doing.
It's going to end up the next Xerox, except with printers instead of copiers.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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I'm glad their new CEO wasn't the CEO of Exxon-Mobil or they'd sell their PC business and start drilling oil wells.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,688
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I'm glad their new CEO wasn't the CEO of Exxon-Mobil or they'd sell their PC business and start drilling oil wells.

lol. So true. I still can't believe this new CEO is trying to get rid of their PC business. Insane.
 

ImDonly1

Platinum Member
Dec 17, 2004
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How come hp is stopping their pc business? I thought they were one of the top 2 pc makers with dell. Maybe they will have a liquidation sale for that too.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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How come hp is stopping their pc business? I thought they were one of the top 2 pc makers with dell. Maybe they will have a liquidation sale for that too.

They are the #1 computer manufacturer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_share_of_leading_PC_vendors

As to why... well, I agree with the article that the OP posted at the top. I think it's insane though... Just think, if HP's board had hired Lori Greeley (CEO of Victoria's Secret) as CEO instead of Leo Apotheker, they'd exit the PC business to make women's lingerie.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
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Xerox, of course, should just have sued Apple.

For what exactly? Apple offered them an opportunity to buy Apple stock at a set price before the public IPO in exchange for access to the PARC research. I'm not sure how much stock Xerox bought, but I don't think it's possible to sue someone over "not liking the terms of the contract that I signed with them."

How come hp is stopping their pc business? I thought they were one of the top 2 pc makers with dell. Maybe they will have a liquidation sale for that too.

I'm assuming it's because the margins that they actually make in the PC business are fairly slim. If they want to focus on other markets, getting rid of their consumer PC business gives them fewer things to worry about when making strategic decisions. It's not much different than the time when IBM sold their consumer notebook division to Lenovo.
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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I'm assuming it's because the margins that they actually make in the PC business are fairly slim. If they want to focus on other markets, getting rid of their consumer PC business gives them fewer things to worry about when making strategic decisions. It's not much different than the time when IBM sold their consumer notebook division to Lenovo.

Well that's what HP is saying... but Apple seems to do pretty well selling it's computers. Other manufacturers make money in the business. If margins are low and you are the largest manufacturer, you can always sacrifice marketshare for margins. Beyond just that equation, the problem can't be component pricing when you are #1, so then it just comes down to making things that people are willing to pay extra money to buy. If you make it cool, and easy to use, and an improvement over previous products, people will pay extra to get it. There's plenty of examples of this. This idea that "there's no margins in the PC business" to me translates as "we aren't capable of coming up with new products that people will pay higher margins for".

To me, HP is a in a great position to really come up with some great products - or at least they were before their CEO announced they are selling the business. They are the number #1 computer manufacturer in the world. They should come up with a seamless WiFi backup system, a really slick WiDi device, and most obviously of all, a MacBook Air clone. If you make something cool, people will pay for it and if you are the number one manufacturer you can make it cheaper (and thus higher margins) than everyone else and you'll get top-tier in store positioning.

The comparison with IBM is apt, except that IBM wasn't #1 in PC's at the time and the rest of their business was primarily aimed at businesses. HP's primary businesses are split between consumers and businesses. When IBM exited the PC market it seemed like a logical thing to do after the investments that they had made and the way their business had been headed... in the case of HP, it seems much more illogical.
 
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zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
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That could have played into it but it wasn't the only thing that doomed WebOS. WebOS was just practically dead before HP bought it. This was just the final nail.
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
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the reason apple can sell at high margins is they have a world renowned designer and people trust their tech support. you can take a mac to an apple store and get good support

with HP even their expensive computers fall apart and the support is crap

apple has the largest dollar share of the profitable computer market and it's too late for HP or dell to get it back
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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the reason apple can sell at high margins is they have a world renowned designer and people trust their tech support. you can take a mac to an apple store and get good support

with HP even their expensive computers fall apart and the support is crap

apple has the largest dollar share of the profitable computer market and it's too late for HP or dell to get it back

Right. I agree. But that's a fixable problem. You invest in support, you invest in tech support training, and you build a reputation for high customer service. You improve your quality control, you improve your testing and you can improve the overall reliability.

For example, I know a guy who is involved in digital camera testing at a major digital camera manufacturer. There's a test they do on every camera where the back of the screen is pushed by a machine and then it checks for a test pattern afterwards. If the test pattern appears, it's a pass, if there's a problem, it fails. The harder you press, the more screens fail this test, and the more it costs you but the more you press on the screen in this test, the fewer returns you have. So it's a trade off between cost and reliability - and there are literally hundreds of other examples like this just for digital cameras.

The problem - in my opinion - is that HP spent close to a decade engaged in a "race to the bottom". They used to have decent technical support people but they outsourced those jobs and the new support staff have never caught up with the expertise of the previous staff in my opinion. They had decent reliability, but over the years they consistently compromised quality in the pursuit of cost. And in the race for the lowest price and lowest cost devices, they lost most of the margins as well. It doesn't need to be that way... that's just the way that the company played things.
 

rchiu

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2002
3,846
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Well that's what HP is saying... but Apple seems to do pretty well selling it's computers. Other manufacturers make money in the business. If margins are low and you are the largest manufacturer, you can always sacrifice marketshare for margins. Beyond just that equation, the problem can't be component pricing when you are #1, so then it just comes down to making things that people are willing to pay extra money to buy. If you make it cool, and easy to use, and an improvement over previous products, people will pay extra to get it. There's plenty of examples of this. This idea that "there's no margins in the PC business" to me translates as "we aren't capable of coming up with new products that people will pay higher margins for".

To me, HP is a in a great position to really come up with some great products - or at least they were before their CEO announced they are selling the business. They are the number #1 computer manufacturer in the world. They should come up with a seamless WiFi backup system, a really slick WiDi device, and most obviously of all, a MacBook Air clone. If you make something cool, people will pay for it and if you are the number one manufacturer you can make it cheaper (and thus higher margins) than everyone else and you'll get top-tier in store positioning.

The comparison with IBM is apt, except that IBM wasn't #1 in PC's at the time and the rest of their business was primarily aimed at businesses. HP's primary businesses are split between consumers and businesses. When IBM exited the PC market it seemed like a logical thing to do after the investments that they had made and the way their business had been headed... in the case of HP, it seems much more illogical.

Agreed, not only HP was in a great position to come up with great products, they were in a great position to leverage their PC business to sell their consulting services. Maybe PC business has slim margin, but at least HP could utilize the business to create some synergy with the consulting business. For example, they could sell networking product and sell network monitoring, optimization, configuration consulting service. That's what EMC has done pretty well in the enterprise storage area.

IBM is selling consulting services yes, but they also have a big portfolio of software business, their WebSphere, Tivoli, Cognos, MQ Series, all creates synergy with their consulting services. Oracle has their ERP, and the SAP guy should know that their SAP software is the bases to sell their consulting services.

After the sales of HP PC business, HP has not much hardware/software portfolio. They are just one of the many consulting companies, and one of the new entrant without much established reputation.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
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Agreed, not only HP was in a great position to come up with great products, they were in a great position to leverage their PC business to sell their consulting services. Maybe PC business has slim margin, but at least HP could utilize the business to create some synergy with the consulting business. For example, they could sell networking product and sell network monitoring, optimization, configuration consulting service. That's what EMC has done pretty well in the enterprise storage area.

IBM is selling consulting services yes, but they also have a big portfolio of software business, their WebSphere, Tivoli, Cognos, MQ Series, all creates synergy with their consulting services. Oracle has their ERP, and the SAP guy should know that their SAP software is the bases to sell their consulting services.

After the sales of HP PC business, HP has not much hardware/software portfolio. They are just one of the many consulting companies, and one of the new entrant without much established reputation.

This. IBM had other things to bring to the table so it made sense to get out of the brutally competitive PC business. What else does HP have?
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
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This. IBM had other things to bring to the table so it made sense to get out of the brutally competitive PC business. What else does HP have?

They do have a good enterprise lineup, but that is increasingly under attack from players like Cisco. I think the personal systems group accounts for something like 1/3 of their revenue (I think I saw $41 billion IIRC) and while the margins might be small, they aren't losing money on it to my knowledge and it serves as a pretty solid foundation.

As pm said, HP is probably one of the few companies in the world that could have challenged Apple in terms of design aesthetics and value add and therefore, maybe increased their margins in the PC business. One key difference which may not have been mentioned, however, is that PCs are heavily commoditized and competition is very tough, and that isn't a problem Apple has to face with Macs. If I want a Mac, I have to buy from Apple; if I want to buy a PC, I have dozens of choices and if HP's value add or aesthetics add too much to the cost, most will probably shop elsewhere because at the end of the day, they want a box which runs software. Apple does not face this problem with the Mac.

Senseamp makes a good point as well -- what does HP want to be when it grows up? I was an employee at Compaq when the HP/Compaq merger was announced. Let me tell you, more than a few of us were baffled and if anything, we thought Compaq should be the one calling the shots in the merger because the primary stated reason for the merger (to battle Dell) was something the Compaq side of the house was better equipped to do and in fact, once the merger was completed, the business products which remained (PCs, laptops, Intel servers) were ALL Compaq products. The HP Vectras, Omnibooks, and Netservers were all discontinued very quickly. Basically, the merger combined the two separate corporate customer bases of HP and Compaq and allowed Compaq's products to spread into HP's customer base. All HP brought to the table was the printer/imaging business and the HP Unix business and those servers. Not insignificant at all, but not integral to the main purpose of becoming the world's largest PC maker.

As it turned out, the merger DID accomplish the goals set forth by Fiorina at the time; however, it took many years and was costly from both a financial and human perspective. Years and years later, the overall opinion of the merger did start to shift and people looked more favorably on it despite the issues above. And now, Leo Apotheker wants to throw all of that away. Leo was a bad hire to begin with, and as one article stated, he has completely lost control of HP in less than a year. It may all work out in the end, but I am singularly unimpressed with him.
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
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i know someone who works with SAP. it's like herpes, takes years to get but you can never get rid of it. SAP is an insanely priced product that you will spend 2-3 years deploying and you will never dump it because it will cost too much money to migrate to something else.

the ceo of SAP can say things like we're planning to dump so and so because the customers are trapped. but saying you are going to dump the PC division means your customers can just buy something else starting with next week. we're an all HP server shop where i work but don't buy HP computers anymore. those things just fall apart. lenovo is where it's at for business laptops
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,655
688
126
i know someone who works with SAP. it's like herpes, takes years to get but you can never get rid of it. SAP is an insanely priced product that you will spend 2-3 years deploying and you will never dump it because it will cost too much money to migrate to something else.

the ceo of SAP can say things like we're planning to dump so and so because the customers are trapped. but saying you are going to dump the PC division means your customers can just buy something else starting with next week. we're an all HP server shop where i work but don't buy HP computers anymore. those things just fall apart. lenovo is where it's at for business laptops

As an aside, we used a few products that were eventually acquired by SAP (Business Objects was one, IIRC) and I have never seen such a pathetic and jumbled mess as SAP's support portal. It completely defied logic and I even told one of the people I spoke to there that it was the worst portal, by far, that I had ever seen.
 

alent1234

Diamond Member
Dec 15, 2002
3,915
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HP's won't win any awards either. with dell you put the service tag into the website and get warranty info and everything else about the product. with HP it seems every feature is a separate application you have to find within the website, there seem to be 3-5 different authentication schemes that you have to register for, etc