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Really old thread somebody bumped.

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Originally posted by: spazo
Originally posted by: sandorski
This could be a mixup, maybe even diversion. Perhaps they are indeed Taping something out, but not the 520, something perhaps, much more interesting.
Click to expand...


I agree, this is probably the R850 part...
Click to expand...

Not a trick..
the cost of those retapes will be passed down to the consumer you realize.
Companies dont play "tricks" like little fanboy kids with millions upon millions of dollars! Fanboy illusions do not exist in ATI's corporate headquarters..

I promise you they are not playing games and "tricks" with their investors money.

If you ARE correct, they will be gone soon. Once a major investor noticed they were spending 10 million on "tricking" us (how crafty of them :disgust: ) instead of releasing a product to make money. But you are dellusional this is not the case.
ATIs best days are gone, at least for a while boys. Time to jump ship and enjoy some great driver support and the worlds fastest video solutions with the best dual graphics platform available. 😉
The green machine is spitting nails, and the canadians are grasping at straws yet again.
 
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Not a trick..
the cost of those retapes will be passed down to the consumer you realize.
Companies dont play "tricks" like little fanboy kids with millions upon millions of dollars! Fanboy illusions do not exist in ATI's corporate headquarters..

I promise you they are not playing games and "tricks" with their investors money.

If you ARE correct, they will be gone soon. Once a major investor noticed they were spending 10 million on "tricking" us (how crafty of them :disgust: ) instead of releasing a product to make money. But you are dellusional this is not the case.
ATIs best days are gone, at least for a while boys. Time to jump ship and enjoy some great driver support and the worlds fastest video solutions with the best dual graphics platform available. 😉
The green machine is spitting nails, and the canadians are grasping at straws yet again.
Click to expand...


To quote keysplayr2003, "OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!"
 
I just think that ATI noticed the 5800/5900 series fiasco. Sure 90nm process is very difficult to perfect but both AMD and Intel have done it. I think it would be better for ATI to delay their product until it is faster than Nvidia's than to release a card slower than 7800GTX 2-3 months later. If it does end up slower, then they will surely have something in the mid- and low-range that has to be better than Nvidia's. How else will they be competing?

Also the article BFG linked mentions that ATI is having problems with their high-end card. There is no mention that R530 and RV515 are having issues. Perhaps, ATI wants to finalize their high-end part and release all 3 (low, mid and high-end cards) at once. If that were to happen, then it's not like they have lost much ground since Nvidia has no low/mid range cards now.

Given the extended life-cycle of videocard generations, as long as ATI's cards are faster, Nvidia hasnt made a dent in the market since 3% buy 7800GTX cards. The real battle will ensue in the lower and mid-range (i must have said this 1000x)....and Nvidia has none of those cards on the market. X800 is getting very competitive with 6600GT. X800XL is $50 cheaper than 6800GT. X850xt pe is outperforming 6800U. The reason why Nvidia won this round in shipments is because ATi had terrible availability of AGP-based cards. 6800GT>X800Pro. X800XL AGP didnt come for like 8 months and when it did at $50 price premium. X800 was way too late to arrive, when 9800Pro struggled against 6600GT. But if you look now, ATI has a better card in almost every price segment. I am pretty sure if they are spending so much time perfecting their high-end card, they are going for an all-out-kill.

We should all remember the previous round:

"We were skeptical, when the GeForce 6800 Ultra was thrust into the spotlight, that ATI would be able to keep up with their toughest competitor." - Anandtech
"ATi kept quiet last month after NVIDIA launched its very impressive GeForce 6800 Ultra and the NV40 graphics processor that will become the foundation for NVIDIA product lines in the future." - Tomshardware

So ATI didnt have a card ready for 1 month after 6800U/GT release. Nvidia launched June 22nd, and here it's only July 8th and everyone is going insane already. Even with yield issues, if history was to repeat itself, ATI still has a month to come back.

And then:
"....it is safe to say that ATI comes out on top when it comes to DX9 and PS 2.0 performance. With ATI's performance on par in older games and slightly ahead in newer games, the beefy power supply requirement, two slot solution, and sheer heat generated by NV40 may be too much for most people to take the NVIDIA plunge." - anandtech

(notice the skepticism regarding the adoption of NV40 products, which we later learn to be of no issue to consumers) <----- It is much easier to criticize something where flaws are more obvious (but that doesnt mean the product will not be successful). In this case the problems ATI has been having are possibly exemplified (but like NV40, it's again easier to analyze ATI's problems just 2 weeks after G7800GTX release and call this round over, right?)

"ATi drops its bombshell after NVIDIA's more-than-impressive launch last month of its GeForce 6800 Ultra. Thanks to its performance advantage when using anisotropic filtering, the Radeon X800 XT Platinum Edition shows its rivals who's boss in this discipline without noticeably sacrificing image quality." - Toms

However, "In our opinion, the most impressive thing about this card is how little effort ATi needed to reach the performance we saw here. The trouble is, there are also drawbacks to the fact that only little effort had to be put into this design." - toms again

So obviously you cant have it all. IF ATI released a 32 pipe 600mhz card almost close to Nvidia's launch, then Nvidia would be blown out of the water right away (at least now Nvidia fans can scream atop of their lungs until R520 comes). But it's not that easy since they have to implement PS3.0 (requires all new architecture). The good news is that Nvidia can always respond with a faster 7800Ultra and drop prices on 7800GTX by $100. So keys, I dont really understand how you think the closer the 2 cards, the better it is for us (maybe for those who want to feel better that they didnt waste money on the 7800GTX). But I personally want the next card (be it Nvidia or ATI) to be faster (so that next time they spend more time/money on R&D, release more powerful cards that wont be blown out by their competitors). Becuase of 5800/5900 failure, Nvidia had to step up with NV40, and ATI simply coasted with R300 on steroids. Well, now it's time for ATI to step up. And if they do, I dont see how that is bad for the consumer.

Since about 50% of the low-end to low-mid range market will still have AGP-based products by the end of 2005, until Nvidia releases any AGP-based 7x00 cards, i dont see how ATI is doomed. Last time I checked Nvidia doesnt even plan to release any AGP based high-end cards. Well they can kiss good-bye to those "free" % points of the market that ATI will eat up.
 
Originally posted by: RussianSensation
I just think that ATI noticed the 5800/5900 series fiasco. Sure 90nm process is very difficult to perfect but both AMD and Intel have done it. I think it would be better for ATI to delay their product until it is faster than Nvidia's than to release a card slower than 7800GTX 2-3 months later. If it does end up slower, then they will surely have something in the mid- and low-range that has to be better than Nvidia's. How else will they be competing?

Also the article BFG linked mentions that ATI is having problems with their high-end card. There is no mention that R530 and RV515 are having issues. Perhaps, ATI wants to finalize their high-end part and release all 3 (low, mid and high-end cards) at once. If that were to happen, then it's not like they have lost much ground since Nvidia has no low/mid range cards now.

Given the extended life-cycle of videocard generations, as long as ATI's cards are faster, Nvidia hasnt made a dent in the market since 3% buy 7800GTX cards. The real battle will ensue in the lower and mid-range (i must have said this 1000x)....and Nvidia has none of those cards on the market. X800 is getting very competitive with 6600GT. X800XL is $50 cheaper than 6800GT. X850xt pe is outperforming 6800U. The reason why Nvidia won this round in shipments is because ATi had terrible availability of AGP-based cards. 6800GT>X800Pro. X800XL AGP didnt come for like 8 months and when it did at $50 price premium. X800 was way too late to arrive, when 9800Pro struggled against 6600GT. But if you look now, ATI has a better card in almost every price segment. I am pretty sure if they are spending so much time perfecting their high-end card, they are going for an all-out-kill.
Click to expand...


:roll:

ATI has been losing high end market share for the last year. Look at the Steam Survey or Mercury Research if you don't believe me.

I guess not many people agree with you that ATI has better cheaper products at every price point Russian. 70% of the 6600> market is nVidia's last quarter.
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
:roll:

ATI has been losing high end market share for the last year. Look at the Steam Survey or Mercury Research if you don't believe me.

I guess not many people agree with you that ATI has better cheaper products at every price point Russian. 70% of the 6600> market is nVidia's last quarter.
Click to expand...

Nice work. Russian has recieved dual ownage today.
 
Originally posted by: Rollo
Originally posted by: RussianSensation
I just think that ATI noticed the 5800/5900 series fiasco. Sure 90nm process is very difficult to perfect but both AMD and Intel have done it. I think it would be better for ATI to delay their product until it is faster than Nvidia's than to release a card slower than 7800GTX 2-3 months later. If it does end up slower, then they will surely have something in the mid- and low-range that has to be better than Nvidia's. How else will they be competing?

Also the article BFG linked mentions that ATI is having problems with their high-end card. There is no mention that R530 and RV515 are having issues. Perhaps, ATI wants to finalize their high-end part and release all 3 (low, mid and high-end cards) at once. If that were to happen, then it's not like they have lost much ground since Nvidia has no low/mid range cards now.

Given the extended life-cycle of videocard generations, as long as ATI's cards are faster, Nvidia hasnt made a dent in the market since 3% buy 7800GTX cards. The real battle will ensue in the lower and mid-range (i must have said this 1000x)....and Nvidia has none of those cards on the market. X800 is getting very competitive with 6600GT. X800XL is $50 cheaper than 6800GT. X850xt pe is outperforming 6800U. The reason why Nvidia won this round in shipments is because ATi had terrible availability of AGP-based cards. 6800GT>X800Pro. X800XL AGP didnt come for like 8 months and when it did at $50 price premium. X800 was way too late to arrive, when 9800Pro struggled against 6600GT. But if you look now, ATI has a better card in almost every price segment. I am pretty sure if they are spending so much time perfecting their high-end card, they are going for an all-out-kill.
Click to expand...


:roll:

ATI has been losing high end market share for the last year. Look at the Steam Survey or Mercury Research if you don't believe me.

I guess not many people agree with you that ATI has better cheaper products at every price point Russian. 70% of the 6600> market is nVidia's last quarter.
Click to expand...

Does all that matter when ATI has captured much more of the OEM market where the real money is? :disgust:


 
Originally posted by: Creig
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Not a trick..
the cost of those retapes will be passed down to the consumer you realize.
Companies dont play "tricks" like little fanboy kids with millions upon millions of dollars! Fanboy illusions do not exist in ATI's corporate headquarters..

I promise you they are not playing games and "tricks" with their investors money.

If you ARE correct, they will be gone soon. Once a major investor noticed they were spending 10 million on "tricking" us (how crafty of them :disgust: ) instead of releasing a product to make money. But you are dellusional this is not the case.
ATIs best days are gone, at least for a while boys. Time to jump ship and enjoy some great driver support and the worlds fastest video solutions with the best dual graphics platform available. 😉
The green machine is spitting nails, and the canadians are grasping at straws yet again.
Click to expand...


To quote keysplayr2003, "OMFG!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Click to expand...

I'm right there with ya Creig.

 
Remember that ATi has their 'little league' team on the R520- it is an upgrade to the R3x0 core much like the R420. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect them to pull ahead of nVidia as long as they can handle the 90nm transition- but to expect them to pull ahead the way they did with the R9700Pro is quite frankly utterly delusional. The team working on the R520 has never been able to get even an across the board lead head to head against nVidia in any generation- the best they have ever done was to come up with the X850XTPE as a stop gap card to win more benches then they lost against the 6800Ultra(which was such a strong product nV cancelled their refresh). The R600 is the part to watch from ATi. The R520 may well end up being a decent amount faster then the 7800GTX, but you are insane if you think they are going to come close to R300 level performance edge.
Click to expand...

Where do you come up with this crap? Post a link, serioulsy. If you're hoping the r520 is another r300 on steroids so you can bark about the "2003 feature set" for another year, then you're beyond delusional - more like insane. If the r520 is a 32 pipe card at 500-600 mhz, I'd expect nothing less than a 9700p-like lead over the 7800. Unless you happen to be working for Ati on the r520 project and know something that nobody else here does, a card with more pipes AND higher clock speed will usually wipe the floor with the competition. The only thing you can do is hope nvidia has it's own 32 pipe card released at the same time, because otherwise they don't stand a chance.

No, the closer in performance the two parts end up being the better it is for all of us.
Click to expand...

No, it's only better for those who shelled out $600 on a card and are afraid another card will run circles around theirs in a few months. For the rest of us, a big improvent is usually a good thing.
 
Originally posted by: sandorski
This could be a mixup, maybe even diversion. Perhaps they are indeed Taping something out, but not the 520, something perhaps, much more interesting.
Click to expand...

I don't think so, otherwise I think they would have to mention that in the last investor conference call or something, although this info seems newer and this could have all happened after that call conference.

Either way, if they are able to start deliveries at the end of August, they should be available in mass by the holiday buying season, which is a biggie for sales I would think.

 
If I had ten million dollars, the first thing I'd do with it is give it to ATI as an investment and hope they try to trick everyone that they are failing by spending all of it fruitlessly.. when they really are blowing everyone away.
 
I will go to work at ATI just for you someday hoping you knock on my door.

If I had 10 million dollars I certainly wouldnt give it to ATI. I might consider buying a 7800 then.
 
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: Rollo
:roll:

ATI has been losing high end market share for the last year. Look at the Steam Survey or Mercury Research if you don't believe me.

I guess not many people agree with you that ATI has better cheaper products at every price point Russian. 70% of the 6600> market is nVidia's last quarter.
Click to expand...

Nice work. Russian has recieved dual ownage today.
Click to expand...

Please read my last paragraph over again. I mention that ATI was late with all their card introductions. Right now 9800Pro for $120> 6600, x800 for $150>6600GT, 6800nu really has no competitor, x800xl>6800GT for $50 less, x800xt AIW for $330 has no competition, X850xt or x850xt pe are both better than 6800Ultra at $400 or so. So even if market data hasnt shown it, that doesnt mean ati has poor products in each of the competing market segments. X300 series is still cheaper than the 6200 cards also. The problem is most of these cards either dropped in price too slow, or arrived on the scene too late.
 
Originally posted by: RussianSensation
Also ATI drivers are just as good as Nvidias. They release new ones every 1 month, vs. 6 months for Nvidia.
Click to expand...

Just to continue to add insult to injury on this point.. because this ATI=NV drivers crap for FAR too long now and its a damn lie.. Anand has something to add for me with the update to the BF2 performance tests.

?UPDATE: After hearing feedback on the article, we went back and ran tests on the GeForce 6800 GT and the Radeon X800 XL in order to fill in an upper midrange price gap. Note that there are no tests for the X800 XL at 2048x1536 due to difficulties getting the card to run properly at this resolution (it would only render the upper left 1600x1200 of the screen). Though we have alluded to it before, we would like to note that while we have had zero issues running NVIDIA cards at very high resolutions, it has been a constant struggle to get ATI cards to properly render resolutions above 1600x1200 on analog monitors.

As far as performance of this update goes, the X800 XL slightly trails the 6800 GT without AA enabled, but performs much better after all the options are turned up.?
Click to expand...

Driver issues? Perhaps?
As stated, Nvidia has its issues as well.. but not much, you could display things from the past.. but the past problems are by far dominated by ATI as well.
Speaking of TODAY.. Nvidia still smokes ATI in the driver department.
Its nice to see my boy Anand add info that adds to my point. 😉

I retract my comment that ATI drivers are "workable, decent" drivers if they will hardly go above 1600x1200.
I can hear it now.. ATI saying "you dont need above 1600x1200 on analog!" 😉

We didnt need 32bit color, didnt need to support Microsofts DX9C properly, and now we dont need above 1600x1200 resolution!
But buy ATI, because we all know how much blind loyalty those R300s bought from you all (which also came with immature drivers for that new core, a stark difference from the new NV40 core which had decent drivers from launch).
 
Originally posted by: southpawuni
Originally posted by: RussianSensation
Also ATI drivers are just as good as Nvidias. They release new ones every 1 month, vs. 6 months for Nvidia.
Click to expand...

Just to continue to add insult to injury on this point.. because this ATI=NV drivers crap for FAR too long now and its a damn lie.. Anand has something to add for me with the update to the BF2 performance tests.

?UPDATE: After hearing feedback on the article, we went back and ran tests on the GeForce 6800 GT and the Radeon X800 XL in order to fill in an upper midrange price gap. Note that there are no tests for the X800 XL at 2048x1536 due to difficulties getting the card to run properly at this resolution (it would only render the upper left 1600x1200 of the screen). Though we have alluded to it before, we would like to note that while we have had zero issues running NVIDIA cards at very high resolutions, it has been a constant struggle to get ATI cards to properly render resolutions above 1600x1200 on analog monitors.

As far as performance of this update goes, the X800 XL slightly trails the 6800 GT without AA enabled, but performs much better after all the options are turned up.?
Click to expand...

Driver issues? Perhaps?
As stated, Nvidia has its issues as well.. but not much, you could display things from the past.. but the past problems are by far dominated by ATI as well.
Speaking of TODAY.. Nvidia still smokes ATI in the driver department.
Its nice to see my boy Anand add info that adds to my point. 😉

I retract my comment that ATI drivers are "workable, decent" drivers if they will hardly go above 1600x1200.
I can hear it now.. ATI saying "you dont need above 1600x1200 on analog!" 😉

We didnt need 32bit color, didnt need to support Microsofts DX9C properly, and now we dont need above 1600x1200 resolution!
Click to expand...


Will you PLEASE tone down the Nv cheerleading about three notches? Honestly, you're like housecat reincarnated.

Both ATI and NV have their strengths and weaknesses. ATI cards are nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make them out to be.
 
I'm open to hear what I'm wrong on though.

I'll grant you, ATI has decent workable drivers.. to some extent.
But its not me making them sound bad.. complain to Anand and make him edit out the fact that they dont display above 1600x1200 properly maybe?

You cannot hide the truth just because you do not like it.
 
southpawuni do you own any of Nvidia's or ATI's latest cards.(If he has ever even owned an ATI card at all)
 
But its not me making them sound bad.. complain to Anand and make him edit out the fact that they dont display above 1600x1200 properly maybe?
Click to expand...

I run my X800 XL at 1920x1080 analog and other custom 1080i resolutions routinely with my X800XL, and have for months with stock or otherwise Catalyst drivers. Something my 6800 standard would never sync using Forceware drivers or Powerstrip, several driver revisions, and several months trying......so, YMMV is the rule. Talk to people that actually routinely use resolutions above 1600x1200 using Nvidia or ATI hardware and you could make a good claim for both camps not displaying above 1600x1200 "properly" in many cases (and below 1600x1200 for that matter)

NV40 driver support was pretty good from the launch, but there were definately issues, not to even mention hardware issues that were never resolved, same with my Nforce2 Motherboards. I wouldn't say Nvidia driver support was poor in either case, pretty good actually all in all.

My ATI X800 XL has had few issues I can recall over the past few months with testing several driver revisions: a sturdy, great piece of hardware right out of the box. Same with my RS480 ATI motherboard. ATI's most recent hardware has pretty good driver support along with decent, usable feature sets.

Lets be realistic here.
 
Leaving serious rendering issues with games for years is 'good driver support' in your eyes?
Click to expand...

Sacrifice?...right Ben.

In my use, I'd say yes, ATI driver support has been very good. In some cases, excellent, in some cases, poor. Overall, I'd say "very good driver support" for ATI all around.

I couldn't claim any better for Nvidia over the past couple years I've used some of their hardware for the same reasons. Overall, I'd give them a similar "very good driver support".



 
So even if market data hasnt shown it, that doesnt mean ati has poor products in each of the competing market segments.
Click to expand...

Only if you spin it pretty heavy. Remove discontinued merchandise clearance sales and you end up with ATi looking quite poor overall. You pick a X800 for $150 over a 6600GT(cheapest price on PriceWatch for a X800 is $189, $248 if you want AGP) instead of comparing it to a 6800NU which lists for $5 less(then the PCIe price, or stick with the 6600GT if you prefer for $163). The X800XL's lowest price is $284 compared to the 6800GTs lowest price of $289($280 for 128MB GT, but that isn't quite fair).

Step up to the higher and and the cheapest X850 is $398 and the cheapest Ultra is $420- a place where ATi is looking pretty good(unfortunately this is where far less then 1% of sales are made).

Line them up against their comparable nVidia parts and only the X850 is looking very good. The X800XL was looking very strong at $100 less then a 6800GT, but at $5 less it looks pretty weak. ATi's lineup right now is extremely weak overall, only their top tier board fairs decently against nV's soon to be dropped second tier part- they need to get their new line out the door ASAP.

In my use, I'd say yes, ATI driver support has been very good.
Click to expand...

Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.
 
Overall I'd say they were unacceptable for a third rate discounter who was bankrupt. I had less problems using 3dfx parts after they went out of business then I have running ATi. I bring up Sacrifice as it is a bug they have known about for YEARS and refuse to do anything about- 'we got your money- fvck you' has been the summation of their attempts at dealing with the issue. If a major site or print publication doesn't bash them for an issue they will not do anything to fix it- there is nothing like any other company that has ever been in the 3D market- ATi is hands down the poorest in the industry by a long shot.
Click to expand...

What a load of crap, and you're an idiot to even suggest it. You hang on Sacrifice like its a freakin' matter of life or death, good gawd BenSkywalker you are nothing more than a laughable fanboi anymore...shame.
 
Nvidia has no AGP version of the 7800, and correct me if I'm wrong, but they don't plan too right?

PCI-E makes up at best 4% of the market, ATI says they'll have AGP at launch from what I've read. I recently upgraded to a new CPU+MB but stayed AGP because I have a 9800pro.

I'd rather WAIT a few extra months and have ATI launch the card correctly then get a half baked card with pipelines cut out. Either way I won't upgrade until somebody releases an AGP card. I'm not a fan boy and will go with whoever has theirs to the market first. AGP makes up almost the entire market, can't believe Nvidia is shunning us like this.

and for the record the "ATI drivers = teh sUx0rs!?!" shut up! sure they are games that won't run properly. But it's a SMALL number, people who say ATI has buggy/bad drivers make me laugh like when Michael Dell use to talk about how AMD chips weren't "compatible" get over it. my 9800pro is ROCK Solid in all aspects.
 
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