Really naive questions regarding Macs.

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

XP is pretty damned stablle. Where is your difinitive proof?

Unfortunately, things like stability cannot be quantified. However, the overwhelming consensus among those who use both platforms extensively is that OS X crashes less. Many even claim that OS X has never been infected by a virus!

Neither my Powerbook nor my Windows XP machine crash. 😕

For that matter, my Solaris machines (work), Linux machines (work), and OpenBSD machines (home) don't either. :Q

As for Windows XP, I'm not sure how you'd consider it stable. The damage to companies that use Windows XP has been well-documented, with hackers being sent to prison for exploiting the OS's flaws.

Those are probably not stability/reliability issues. They typically fall into a small number of issues: luck, education, and administration. Often the admin screws something up (misconfigured or not up to date software). The users are generally stupid, and give out their passwords for chocolate or click on that .scr thinking it'll give them naked pictures of Janet Reno. And sometimes, 0-days are released and everyone is screwed.

My copy crashes on a daily basis. I've also gotten several virus infections which have required me to re-install the operating system. And, yes, I do use automatic Windows Update, so I always have the latest patches; I also run automated spyware scans every morning at 4am.

Look at your hardware. I'd venture to guess something is wrong there. Bad memory? Mine does not crash. Period. I don't get viruses (although I run a virus scanner). I do not get spyware (although I run spyware programs occassionally).

This is one of those "Michael Jordan" concepts. There is no mathematical proof, but the truth remains obvious, nonetheless, for anyone willing to take a look.

This is one of those things, as you said, cannot be quantified. There can be no truth to this matter.

And I'm an anti-windows guy. 🙂

 

[ViRGE]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
Many even claim that OS X has never been infected by a virus!

There are no OS X viruses in the wild, no worms, and only a handful of trojans.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

I've only heard of that one Mac trojan, mp3-something. Are there more?

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
As for Windows XP, I'm not sure how you'd consider it stable. The damage to companies that use Windows XP has been well-documented, with hackers being sent to prison for exploiting the OS's flaws.

If OSX or Linux or any other OS had the level of marketshare that Windows has, there would be more people hacking into them. Besides, exploits aren't really part of instability.

My copy crashes on a daily basis. I've also gotten several virus infections which have required me to re-install the operating system.

Then you're doing something wrong. Either you're using bad hardware, bad software, and/or your usage habits are conducive to these problems. I've been running XP for about two and a half years now and it has not crashed one time. Applications have crashed and taken video with them, and I've had hardware fail and crash the computer, but Windows XP has remained stable.

XP could handle my dying hard drive when Linux would choke up and die. I was a Windows hater for a long time. XP is a good OS when used with decent hardware and software.

And, yes, I do use automatic Windows Update, so I always have the latest patches; I also run automated spyware scans every morning at 4am.

Something is wrong then.

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
I've only heard of that one Mac trojan, mp3-something. Are there more?

MP3Concept was a proof of concept for something completely different, it was found in a usergroup and hyped by the antivir company Intego. Sophos' mysterious Mac/Cowhand.A is the same story. These two were not the only false alerts.

I know one trojan, but it has to be installed locally and intentionally. Some genius once activated a script named "Microsoft Office", he got it from a P2P-Network and the file was only a few kilobytes. It deleted his user directory. Stupid^2 but this is a "mac virus" that has got media attention! 😀

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42
If OSX or Linux or any other OS had the level of marketshare that Windows has, there would be more people hacking into them.

Even if true, so what? Knowing why an operating system lacks adequate security doesn't help unless the problems are fixed.

Besides, exploits aren't really part of instability.

You don't think that the blaster worm was a "part of instability"? More like the "height of instability"!

Then you're doing something wrong. Either you're using bad hardware, bad software, and/or your usage habits are conducive to these problems.

I use an HP Pavilion 734n, mostly HP factory parts. The exceptions are: A Sound Blaster Audigy LS in place of the original integrated sound, an extra 512MB DIMM, and an extra hard disk on the primary IDE slave. Windows XP is the original OEM bundle that came pre-installed. Before the Pavilion, I used a whitebox P4 (with an MSI Neo2 mainboard) I built myself. Each system demonstrated the same instabilities.

I do install a lot of questionable software, but I usually end up uninstalling it the same day. The reason for this is that I'm constantly learning new tasks for my PC. For example, I just recently installed something I've never heard of, called Blindwrite 5.2.16.154, in an effort to learn how to duplicate copy-protected games. I have no idea if that software could cause a system crash, but if I never install unknown programs, I'll rarely be able to learn new ways to use my PC. Chances are, this Blindwrite software will fail, like CloneCD before it, in which case I will uninstall it later tonight.

I've been running XP for about two and a half years now and it has not crashed one time. Applications have crashed and taken video with them, and I've had hardware fail and crash the computer, but Windows XP has remained stable.

I hope this doesn't offend you, but that sounds like an exaggeration. Not once? As I said earlier, mine crashes, on average, once or more per day! That just doesn't add up.

XP could handle my dying hard drive when Linux would choke up and die. I was a Windows hater for a long time. XP is a good OS when used with decent hardware and software.

I do like the layout of XP, and I acknowledge that it is a heck of a lot more stable than any other home-consumer Windows before it. That doesn't change the fact that it crashes all the time.

Something is wrong then.

Obviously.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

You don't think that the blaster worm was a "part of instability"? More like the "height of instability"!

Blaster was a security issue, not a stability issue.

That doesn't change the fact that it crashes all the time.

For you.

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Blaster was a security issue, not a stability issue.

Blaster, which attacked a flaw in Windows XP, caused God knows how many thousands of PCs around the world to spontaneously shut down. The Blaster worm literally prevented users from operating their computers. You can call it whatever you want, "security" or "stability;" nothing changes what happened--what is still happening, albeit infrequently.

For you.

[Bill] Gates said that 5 percent of Windows machines crash, on average, twice daily.
source: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1210067,00.asp

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Blaster was a security issue, not a stability issue.

Blaster, which attacked a flaw in Windows XP, caused God knows how many thousands of PCs around the world to spontaneously shut down. The Blaster worm literally prevented users from operating their computers. You can call it whatever you want, "security" or "stability;" nothing changes what happened--what is still happening, albeit infrequently.

It's a security issue, not a stability issue.

For you.

[Bill] Gates said that 5 percent of Windows machines crash, on average, twice daily.
source: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,1210067,00.asp

So you and 5% of the clueless computer users club crash daily. What's your point?

 

[hurtstotalktoyou]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

It's a security issue, not a stability issue.

It's both.

So you and 5% of the clueless computer users club crash daily. What's your point?

What makes you think they're all "clueless?"

Anyway, if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2232&p=9

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

It's a security issue, not a stability issue.

It's both.

No. It's a security issue. If your network is going down because of this, you have more problems than just horrible admins. Oh, wait, that was the problem in the first place. :light:

So you and 5% of the clueless computer users club crash daily. What's your point?

What makes you think they're all "clueless?"

Anyway, if you don't believe me, maybe you'll believe anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2232&p=9

No, I don't believe Anand is the authority on the subject. Please give me more concrete numbers. Until you can provide an authoritative source of information so we can quantify this, anything you provide is anecdotal, and as worthless as my comments. 🙂

I do however have systems that don't crash. Windows and Mac OS X. 😛

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
I hope this doesn't offend you, but that sounds like an exaggeration. Not once? As I said earlier, mine crashes, on average, once or more per day! That just doesn't add up.

It doesn't offend me, I don't take much of anything too seriously, especially this forum. 😉

Still, by choosing hardware wisely and not installing crazy software, I've managed to keep Windows XP itself from crashing. I've had a DIMM fail, but ECC caught that. I'm very happy with XP. It solved most of my major complaints with Windows. As a result, I almost never boot into Linux.

 

[Dennis Travis]

First off, Anand never said XP OR OSX crashes DAILY or even weekly. He just said they both crash but OSX crashes a bit less.
2nd, I have ran XP since the first month it was released and have 3 systems now, Each with a LEGAL copy of XP, 2 Pro and one Home and they never really crash at all. If I reboot it's to install new drivers or hardware. Sure some Applications once in a while go down but I never have to reboot. NEVER. And this is from a real Mac OSX lover too. I love OSX, but to say XP crashes daily is total FUD. Sure it will crash with a hardware problem but so will Linux, OSX, OS2, Amiga OS, Gem TOS, DOS, FreeBSD and on and on. I have ran a copy of Windows 2k Server here that has been up non stopped hosting several sites on 3 domains, running a full time Forums software and it's been up for 3.5 years and has never crashed except when the power went off a few times and when the WD HDD after many years died. VERY STABLE I would say. And this is from a Mac and OSX lover.

I like OSX more and feel it's even more stable in some ways and easier to maintain, but XP is not bad at all either.

If you want a CRASHING Windows try ME. Are you sure you are not mixing up ME with XP? Even 98SE installed on good hardware was not as bad as you are saying XP is.

 

[homercles337]

If XP crashes daily you are doing something SERIOUSLY wrong. HP + Nebulous software = crashing machine. Get a clue kid.

 

[hopejr]

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
1) People who already use Windows can use all their old software when they upgrade to another Windows system. Not only does that cost less than buying all new software, but it saves the time of re-learning the same tasks. A lot of software for Windows is available freely, through the internet, which saves even more money. The cost of all the software you need for a Mac can sometimes add up to more than that of the hardware itself! This is a serious concern for anyone considering switching to Apple.

You obviously don't know about www.macupdate.com. Lots of free software on there, and then there's the OSS that you can get on OS X from Linux.

IMHO, Windows XP is extremely stable. The only time I've seen it crash is with hardware issues, or I've been stuffing around with the registry 😛, or a dodgy app that hasn't been debugged properly. Windows Me is the buggy one. But because Apple has so much control over their hardware, there's hardly a case where OS X would crash from a hardware issue. I've only ever had 3 programs crash on me of OS X:
- Help Viewer from Panther (which was crap anyway)
- Finder (this was a hardware issue, a dodgy USB drive that crash any computer it was plugged into)
- Dock/Dashboard in Tiger (not really an issue, because it loads straight back up again).
I have had my iBook kernel panic before, but that's because I unloaded to mouse kernel extension and moved my finger along the track pad (it was to show people that OS X can kernel panic, and when it does so, it tells you to hold down the power button in 5 different languages!!! lol).

 

[tren001]

Three big questions to ask yourself in order to decide between PC and Mac:

1.) Do you game? If you game, you gotta go the PC way, no question about it

2.) Do you like to fiddle with you computer? If yes, gotta go the PC way, since PCs have exponentially more hardware/software/warez available for you to fiddle with

3.) Price range around $1000? You can get very nice PCs in the $1000-$1300 range, the same cannot be said for Macs. Although above $2500 equivalent PCs are probably not much cheaper than macs. However, why anyone would blow $2000+ on a commodity that depreciates and improves as quickly as computers is beyond me.

As for me, I would answer yes to all three of the above questions, so I would never purchase a Mac unless its a top of the line G5 bought with company money and used at work. And finally, any reasonable computer user would conclude that WinXP (and Win2000 before it) is extremely stable, and not qualitatively inferior to OSX in terms of stability.

 

[imported_Lucifer]

Originally posted by: hopejr

Originally posted by: hurtstotalktoyou
1) People who already use Windows can use all their old software when they upgrade to another Windows system. Not only does that cost less than buying all new software, but it saves the time of re-learning the same tasks. A lot of software for Windows is available freely, through the internet, which saves even more money. The cost of all the software you need for a Mac can sometimes add up to more than that of the hardware itself! This is a serious concern for anyone considering switching to Apple.

You obviously don't know about www.macupdate.com. Lots of free software on there, and then there's the OSS that you can get on OS X from Linux.

IMHO, Windows XP is extremely stable. The only time I've seen it crash is with hardware issues, or I've been stuffing around with the registry 😛, or a dodgy app that hasn't been debugged properly. Windows Me is the buggy one. But because Apple has so much control over their hardware, there's hardly a case where OS X would crash from a hardware issue. I've only ever had 3 programs crash on me of OS X:
- Help Viewer from Panther (which was crap anyway)
- Finder (this was a hardware issue, a dodgy USB drive that crash any computer it was plugged into)
- Dock/Dashboard in Tiger (not really an issue, because it loads straight back up again).
I have had my iBook kernel panic before, but that's because I unloaded to mouse kernel extension and moved my finger along the track pad (it was to show people that OS X can kernel panic, and when it does so, it tells you to hold down the power button in 5 different languages!!! lol).

I agree that Windows XP is very stable. Our Athlon XP machine is the most stable Windows machine I have ever used. I also have Windows XP on an old 600mhz HP Kayak workstation. It was very stable, until someone in my household started installing all kinds of programs on the computer, bringing the hard drive space down to 200mb. :Q Poor machine. It only had an 8gb SCSI HD in it. That HP Kayak is my favorite PC, and no one will let me reformat it. 🙁

I only had one Kernel Panic since I actually started using OS X. (I switched to OS X in April 2004. I just remembered I recieved my first OS X machine in April, which was my eMac.) I was using software update, and I just updated to OS X 10.3.3 When it asked to restart, I restarted. Then, all of a sudden, kernal panic. I freaked out, since I was fairly new to OS X. I wasn't used to seeing that in OS 9, I was used to seeing bombs, if you know what I mean. 😉 😛

As for apps crashing in OS X, it rarely happens for me. My eMac (which I no longer have)had apps crash only twice. But they were easy to get out of. Right click on the app on the dock, and force quit. That's all. 🙂 I've only had one app crash on my Powermac G4. No kernel panics though. 🙂 I installed OS X (10.3 and 10.1) on my G4 about 4 months ago.

 

[hopejr]

Originally posted by: tren001
Three big questions to ask yourself in order to decide between PC and Mac:

1.) Do you game? If you game, you gotta go the PC way, no question about it

I agree totally, however things may change soon (well, if ATI and NVidia get their act together with driver optimisation).

2.) Do you like to fiddle with you computer? If yes, gotta go the PC way, since PCs have exponentially more hardware/software/warez available for you to fiddle with

I also agree with this in terms of hardware. The only macs I know of that can be fiddled with is the PowerMac G4 (the old ones like Thin Lizzy has). You can fiddle with the iMac G5 to the extent that you can replace everything in it, except the Processor (except if you replace the main logic board). The PowerMac G5 is also "fiddleable", but definitely not to the extent of an ATX case. Only the PM G4 comes close to that (I've heard the PMG4 cases are better). But then again, you have to know where to find parts to fiddle. That's more difficult with macs than with PC's.
In terms of software, warez for Macs does exist, you just need to know where to look 😛. PC's may have more titles, but who uses every piece of software that exists anyway? 😉

3.) Price range around $1000? You can get very nice PCs in the $1000-$1300 range, the same cannot be said for Macs. Although above $2500 equivalent PCs are probably not much cheaper than macs. However, why anyone would blow $2000+ on a commodity that depreciates and improves as quickly as computers is beyond me.

Macs don't depreciate as fast as PC's. It's a known fact. Just look at eBay or something like that and you'll see.

As for me, I would answer yes to all three of the above questions, so I would never purchase a Mac unless its a top of the line G5 bought with company money and used at work. And finally, any reasonable computer user would conclude that WinXP (and Win2000 before it) is extremely stable, and not qualitatively inferior to OSX in terms of stability.

This is a valid comment. Everyone has the choice to get what they want.

 

[MichaelHudson]

I have and iBook that never crashes. I also have an 8400 and 600m that never crash. Go figure.

 

[w00t]

I am so gonna install this when i get my new computer dual boot.

mac os x is soo sweet i just never wanted to buy a mac just to get it now i can run it on my pc 😀