Really Love Kids? Want to Really Save Lives?

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Blackjack200

Lifer
May 28, 2007
15,995
1,688
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Millions of Americans are happy to respond to any complaint about a potential new law’s infringement of rights or freedom or privacy with some variation of “it’s for the children” or “it will save lives”. Lately it’s been gun control in the crosshairs, but in the past it’s also been free speech, personal privacy and other fundamentals of a free society being targeted.
So fine. If what we really want to do is save lives, and we don’t care what the cost is to individual freedom, let’s do it properly, shall we? Since the subject of guns has been beaten to a pulp, I’ll focus on five other leading preventable causes of death, many of which kill far more people every year than guns do.

...

So, do I actually want to do all of this? Of course not. But then, I’m not one of the people who answers “it’s for the children!” to any rebuttal at a suggestion of some new freedom-limiting law like a new gun ban.
The main difference is that most of the items on my list would actually work.In fact, I feel confident that if all of the measures above were implemented, we’d save at least ten times as many lives per year as are killed by all guns under all circumstances.

While I agree that "it's for the children" is often used to shield bad policy from legitimate criticism, I just want to point out that there is a fundamental difference between gun legislation (as protection for children) and most of what you outlined in your list.

Legitimate or not, there is the perception that a parent can prevent their child from commiting suicide, they can prevent their child from smoking, they can prevent their child from abusing alcohol, they can feed their children healthy food, and they can drive their kids around safely in cars with high accident ratings. In other words, parents can mitigate the risk on all five of these causes, but there is simply nothing they can do (again, this is the perception) to avoid what happened in Newtown.

My criticsm of gun laws and gun culture in this country are not related to incidents like Newtown. As horrific as they are, they are also rare.

Separate from all this is the question of perception. I remember an executive from NASA talking about a chase plane that used to be in the general area of the Space Shuttle Orbiter. It was equipped to rescue the crew if the orbiter crashed. He said that if the orbiter actually crashed, the odds that the chase plane could do any good at all was practically zero. The reason they had it was because if the orbiter did crash, and there was any perception that a chase plane could have helped, public outrage could completely destroy the space program.

Even if guns are relatively safe (something I'm not convinced of) you still have to deal with their public perception.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
6,737
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Alcohol I dont' see as a problem in the same way that guns aren't the problem, the poeple who use them present the problems. . . i responsibly enjoy alcohol maybe twice a month and NEVER drive drunk. . why punish me? Drunk drivers should be punished by 5000$ fines . . . if not more

Why not punish you? How would you not being able to drink twice a month be worth the lives of all the folk who are killed each year by drunk drivers? Wouldn't you give up two days a month to save all those people? Why is your freedom worth the death of so many others? How do you justify it to yourself? Ever try to think why you do?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
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Get with the program, a fetus is not a human life unless a woman wants it to be. The superior intellect of the liberal has decreed it so.

Part of that is actually kind of correct. Abortions generally happen before any brain matter exists, therefore definitely not a "life." If the woman chooses to stay pregnant, it will eventually develop into a full baby.

Booga booga LIBERAL!
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
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In the first post I stated the problems of giving morons freedom, that they use it to endanger other people.

These "morons" are the Conservatives that think differently than you and you blatantly said you would like to see them get hit by a mac truck. Now you can spin that how you like if you want but I see that you really have some issues to deal with before you start giving anyone else advice.

In the second post I provided the only solution I can see. So what your posts demonstrate is that you can neither think, read, or reason. You have a dead horse you want to beat. If you try to turn me into that horse I'm going to give you an education.

No, I can't think, read or reason. I guess you just wrote a love letter to Conservative egotistical morons am I right? Speaking of dead horses lol you should talk!
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
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Why not punish you? How would you not being able to drink twice a month be worth the lives of all the folk who are killed each year by drunk drivers? Wouldn't you give up two days a month to save all those people? Why is your freedom worth the death of so many others? How do you justify it to yourself? Ever try to think why you do?

Wow. So because he likes to have a couple drinks a month its his fault we have hundreds of deaths a day due to drunk driving?
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Nothing can be banned for the sake of anything. Well anything of value to people. They will find a way to obtain it and has been proven time and time again. Whats really going on is that people want something done but they really don't know what to do. So they yell at their representatives and when a new law is passed said rep can then convey how he fought for his district blah blah blah....but none of it addresses the root problem. If it had then those problems wouldn't reoccur. Suicide is an example of something that no matter how many laws you create it stop no one from achieving that goal should the individual desire it. Are there laws against suicide? IDK but I wouldn't surprised.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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Okay, So Here’s How I Would Really Save Lives

The article I posted yesterday has sparked some reactions I didn’t expect.
The intention of writing it was mainly to demonstrate three points:

  1. People tend to want to impose extreme limitations on whatever the “bad thing du jour” is, in this case gun violence, without looking at the big picture.
  2. Most folks would read that list and agree with some of the ideas while considering others outlandish, thus demonstrating that what actions are “reasonable” and what not are very much a function of one’s biases and priorities. Or, put another way, people like to ban and limit out of “safety concerns” those things least likely to affect them personally.
  3. “It’s for the kids!” is not an automatic valid response to every proposal, because the truth is that we, collectively, do not care as much about saving lives as we claim to. We care about it, but not so much that we’re willing to do anything for it.
What I didn’t anticipate was the power of Poe’s Law. I had some liberals who responded to the piece basically saying they thought most of it was a grand idea. And I had some frothing right-wingers who said I was a nefarious, liberty-usurping commie who was serious about every suggestion on the list and eager to take away all of their freedoms. (How they managed to conclude this given the rather obvious sarcastic tone of the first two sentences is left as an exercise for the reader.)

All that aside, it strikes me as fair to ask how I really feel about these issues. So here goes. Note that these are in addition to the ones I recommended about gun violence.

Suicide


The suggestions in this area actually weren’t unreasonable at all. I couldn’t actually think of any ideas to reduce suicide that were extreme without being utterly, totally ridiculous. But I had to include the category because it is a big problem, and I support increased public funding to combat it.

Smoking

I do not approve of banning smoking, even though it is more dangerous than other things we do ban. At this point it is effectively “grandfathered” into our society. So if adults want to kill themselves with dangerous crap, that’s their business, as long as they do it in such a way that I don’t have to breathe any of it. I strongly support smoking bans in the workplace and other public enclosed areas (not parks, give me a break).

But I do think every new smoker is a tragedy. Since smoking is not only dangerous but addictive, I support ongoing efforts to educate and dissuade young people from starting. Teenagers are very suggestible and not very wise about making decisions, and once hooked, it can be very hard to get them to stop. So the “let them make their own decisions” argument does not apply here.

Alcohol Use

Of this list, the only measures I really support are the ones in the areas of education and enforcement. Kids need to be taught about alcohol starting at a young age, and due to the prevalence of alcoholism in the human population, anti-drinking campaigns like the anti-smoking campaigns used to great effect should be instituted. I’d be fine with a modest increase in alcohol taxes to pay for these programs.

I also think colleges need to get real when it comes to underage drinking on campuses. It’s not just in the fraternities, as the stereotype suggests, it’s everywhere.

I don’t think any of the bans and limitations I mentioned — many of which liberals actually would do in a heartbeat — would really have any significant impact other than making life difficult for reasonable drinkers.

Obesity, Diabetes and Inactivity


Again, I mostly support educational and incentive areas here, not punitive or controlling ones. Trying to limit the sizes of soft drinks or forcing people to exercise is not only nanny-statism, it wouldn’t be effective. And the one about TV sets and computer monitors was probably the flatly silliest thing in my entire piece.

We should definitely not be subsidizing the corn or sugar industries. Period.

I also think strong limits, if not outright prohibitions, on the advertising of sugary cereals and junk food to children should be imposed. This is another case of impressionable minors being influenced against their will to want something unhealthful and addictive.

I support laws to require restaurants to put calorie counts on their meals. The usual counterargument to this is that most people will ignore these. My answer is simple — fine, let them. Even if 10% of the population use this information to go “holy shit!” when they contemplate their usual appetizer, see it has 1,500 calories, and decide to have a plain salad instead, it’s worth it. I use these calorie numbers myself in restaurants. Information is power. And I don’t mind some semi-public shaming to discourage restaurants from putting 3,000-calorie entrees on their menus.

Finally, I do support stronger limits on what can be purchased with assistance money, and free lessons for those who need them. The poor don’t have to eat substantially less healthfully than the rich, and we can help close the gap in a sensible way.

Accidents


I stand fully by my recommendations for regular full testing of all drivers. The idea that you show you can drive at age 16 and then you’re set for life is asinine.

I’m especially fed up with the lackadaisical attitude our society takes towards older drivers who clearly no longer have the physical ability to be safe on the road. Many of these people are at least as dangerous as drunks, and yet nothing is being done about it. It’s gotten to the point where I feel in danger whenever I see a car driven by someone with a full set of gray hair.

I understand that losing the ability to drive is a great inconvenience, and that it’s hard to admit that one has finally reached the point where it is necessary. But it often does become necessary, and if people won’t take these actions on their own, then society has to do it for them.

Daytime headlights have been proven to save lives in other countries and cost basically nothing.

Ignition interlocks should not be put on all cars, but they should be put on all cars owned by anyone who has ever been convicted of any sort of DUI infraction. The first time.

Perhaps the most controversial of the suggestions on my entire list that I actually do support have to do with speeding:

  • I would be perfectly happy with a national 55 mph speed limit, for both safety and ecological reasons.
  • I wouldn’t suggest a speed limiter for all cars set to 60 mph, but what about 70 or 80? Why the hell do we need cars that can drive 120 mph on highways where that’s considered reckless driving? I don’t care that much when people speed a bit on the interstate, but when some guy blows by me going 50 mph over the limit, so fast that I never even saw him, it royally pisses me off.
  • If we aren’t going to put speed limiters on cars, then we should continue and increase enforcement of speed limits on roads and highways, including automated means if they can be proven reliable.
  • Also, all radar detectors and similar devices should be made illegal for use on public roadways. These devices exist solely to enable lawbreaking.
That's it. Fire away.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
6,737
126
PC: These "morons" are the Conservatives that think differently than you and you blatantly said you would like to see them get hit by a mac truck. Now you can spin that how you like if you want but I see that you really have some issues to deal with before you start giving anyone else advice.

M: Nobody is spinning this but you. I said I don't care if they want to kill themselves so long as they don't take others with them.

PC: No, I can't think, read or reason. I guess you just wrote a love letter to Conservative egotistical morons am I right? Speaking of dead horses lol you should talk!

M: You get an F for incoherency. Dead horses don't talk.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
6,737
126
I wear loafers. I've named them. The right one I named Lefty and the left one I named Progressive.

The loafer part went to your brain. So what did I learn: Your head is so fat that if you tried to tie your shoes you'd roll over on it revealing two left feet sticking up in the air. You're bound to think in circles if that's how you walk.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
We need to teach children that they are special, and others equally so. It's wrong to harm another. Do good without seeking reward. Use a kind word to turn away wrath. Do unto others as you would have them do to you. Love your neighbor as yourself.

All sounds trite? Perhaps, but the basics aren't being taught and understood. Where there is no kindness cruelty abounds. Where life is cheap it is taken without much thought.

Programs are nice, but they will never take the place of random acts of kindness done just because they could be. We've lost that concept.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Nobody really gives a shit about saving lives.

Flush all this nanny-state nonsense down the toilet.
 

Agent11

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2006
3,535
1
0
Whenever there is tragedy there will be an emotionally driven reaction to that tragedy. Often such efforts are spearheaded by the family of victims, and they are attempting to 'make some good come of it'.

It's understandable, but dangerous. Rationality is often shouted down.

Politicians for their part aren't innocent either, it is easy to capitalize on such situations, authoring and supporting legislation shows action, leadership during a crisis can score you votes, and being regarded as 'tough on crime' is always welcome.

Understandable, but also dangerous.

Then there are those who think they know the answer to all the problems of all men, and can write a bill for them all. They are the most dangerous, because inside they believe they are smarter than everyone else, and know better than you do what rights and privileges you deserve. (If you think liberals are the only ones you would be wrong, just take a look at the state of privacy of Email)

Your examples weren't as outlandish as you may have thought Charles. Take a look at New York City, and ask the residents of any dry county about restrictions on alcohol.
 
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