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Really HARD Riddle! HELP!!!

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Originally posted by: HomeBrewerDude
Originally posted by: Tifababy
The last hint is to show that the two youngest are twins and the older one is not. So that means that it is either 2,2,9 or 6,6,1 since they both have the same product (the address across the street), you needed the last hint, so the answer is 2,2,9.

don't forget

1 1 and 11

so your interpretation (which i don't agree with) of the last clue doesn't help distinguish between 1,1, and 11 and 2,2, and 9

All the clues are important when the question is structured correctly. This version of the question makes it more clear:

two MIT math grads bump into each other at Fairway on the upper west side. they haven't seen each other in over 20 years.

the first grad says to the second: "how have you been?"
second: "great! i got married and i have three daughters now"
first: "really? how old are they?"
second: "well, the product of their ages is 72, and the sum of their ages is the same as the number on that building over there.."
first: "right, ok.. oh wait.. hmm, i still don't know"
second: "oh sorry, the oldest one just started to play the piano"
first: "wonderful! my oldest is the same age!"
 
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

That's because there isn't any
 
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: JudistPriest
no identical 3 numbers can add up to 13, unless they were born on a fraction

It just says their B-days fall on the same day, of the year, not that they are all the same age... so it could be anything

1 2 10
3 4 6
5 5 3
etc...

 
I don't know why you guys are making all these assumptions...

There's not a specific age to learn the violin, and not everyone learns it anyway.

The house number across the street could be ANYTHING. It could be 5, it could be 1789. We don't know, so the clue is useless.

Their birthdays falling on the same DAY of the year means nothing to their relative ages (unless you could partial fractions of a year in the sum? Doubtful).

So any three numbers that add up to 11 will do it.
 
Thats almost exactly how it was stated. Excpt the sum was 13 and the product the same as the builiding across the street.

Just thought i'd cut it downt to make things easier

Mike
 
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.



1 6 6 13 36
2 2 9 13 36

are the dates in question
 
Originally posted by: jagec
I don't know why you guys are making all these assumptions...

There's not a specific age to learn the violin, and not everyone learns it anyway.

The house number across the street could be ANYTHING. It could be 5, it could be 1789. We don't know, so the clue is useless.

Their birthdays falling on the same DAY of the year means nothing to their relative ages (unless you could partial fractions of a year in the sum? Doubtful).

So any three numbers that add up to 11 will do it.

The house number is very important. The way the question is generally structured, that is the last clue given, then after the second person in the story says he cannot solve it, the violin clue is given. This tells you (the reader of the riddle) that the possible answers both must have the same product or else the violin clue would be useless and the riddle would be unsolvable. Because the question _is_ solveable, you find the answers that have the same product and then take the answer that has an oldest child.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.

it's not between 1,1,11 and 2 2 9, it's between 2 2 9 and 1 6 6. Both have the same sum and the same product. That's why you need the last clue which states the oldest is not a twin. If the last clue was my oldest daughterS play the voilin, then 1 6 6 would be the answer, but since there is only 1 oldest daughter, the answer has to be 2 2 9.
 
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.



1 6 6 13 36
2 2 9 13 36

are the dates in question

Whatever, that's what I meant.

There's nothing in the wording of that riddle that narrows it down to those two possibilities.
 
Originally posted by: Tifababy
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.

it's not between 1,1,11 and 2 2 9, it's between 2 2 9 and 1 6 6. Both have the same sum and the same product. That's why you need the last clue which states the oldest is not a twin. If the last clue was my oldest daughterS play the voilin, then 1 6 6 would be the answer, but since there is only 1 oldest daughter, the answer has to be 2 2 9.

Tell me why 3 - 4 - 6 doesn't work
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.



1 6 6 13 36
2 2 9 13 36

are the dates in question

Whatever, that's what I meant.

There's nothing in the wording of that riddle that narrows it down to those two possibilities.


The first three clues do! Sum of 13, product the same. Those two pairs are the only ones that do. The first clue isn't really necessary.
 
Look here for a clearly worded form of this question as well as a solution. The problems are nearly identical, so it will explain what is going on with this riddle.
 
Originally posted by: frodrick
The house number is very important. The way the question is generally structured, that is the last clue given, then after the second person in the story says he cannot solve it, the violin clue is given. This tells you (the reader of the riddle) that the possible answers both must have the same product or else the violin clue would be useless and the riddle would be unsolvable. Because the question _is_ solveable, you find the answers that have the same product and then take the answer that has an oldest child.

Ah, gotcha. I seems that it's important to tell it the MIT way, since you had no way of knowing that it was unsolvable with only the house number, when the OP wrote it.
 
Originally posted by: Tifababy
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Originally posted by: Jzero
Originally posted by: EngenZerO
Seeing that the next clue states that the oldest plays violin you have to assume two products will end up being equal to each other. Thus from that you have to deduce 2, 2, and 9.

I don't follow your reasoning on this.

ok... maybe is because you are given all the clues @ the same time. they actual problem would stager the clues. The street number of the house plays a vital role in this. Based off of all the permutations you should see that two of the permutations have the same product. This is where the house number plays in. Seeing that those two are equal you could not choose thus the next clue is given the oldest plays violin. Seeing that the other permutation has two older twins it would lead you to the 2, 2, 9.

There's still absolutely no wording in the riddle that would lead one to make the jump to 1 1 11 and 2 2 9 being the only two possibilities.



1 6 6 13 36
2 2 9 13 36

are the dates in question

Whatever, that's what I meant.

There's nothing in the wording of that riddle that narrows it down to those two possibilities.


The first three clues do! Sum of 13, product the same. Those two pairs are the only ones that do. The first clue isn't really necessary.

That's where you are wrong, and where everybody is somehow making this blind connection. Their products are the same as the number across the street. That's all it says. We have no idea what that number is. There is nothing narrowing it down to that pair, at all.

IE-

3,4,6. Adds up to 13... product is 72. The 6 year old plays the violin. This is a correct answer, as we have NO IDEA WHAT THE HOUSE NUMBER IS.
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine

Tell me why 3 - 4 - 6 doesn't work

3 4 6 does add up to 13, but if this was the answer, then there would be no need for any other clues. You need two sets which have the same product and sum. The only two sets which do this are 1 6 6 and 2 2 9. That's why the last clue about the oldest daughter is needed. The OP worded the riddle poorly. The way frodick phrased it makes a little more sense, because the second guy says that he still doesn't know, meaning that he has two sets which both have the product equal to the address across the street. So then the oldest daughter clue indicates that the twins are not the oldest, so 2 2 9 is the only one that works using all the clues.
 
Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: frodrick
The house number is very important. The way the question is generally structured, that is the last clue given, then after the second person in the story says he cannot solve it, the violin clue is given. This tells you (the reader of the riddle) that the possible answers both must have the same product or else the violin clue would be useless and the riddle would be unsolvable. Because the question _is_ solveable, you find the answers that have the same product and then take the answer that has an oldest child.

Ah, gotcha. I seems that it's important to tell it the MIT way, since you had no way of knowing that it was unsolvable with only the house number, when the OP wrote it.

:thumbsup:
 
I know what point you all are getting at, but with the riddle he posted, there is no correct answer. It would require severe rewording to work.
 
This isn't logic or a proof of intelligence. It's about drawing unsupported conclusions from a lack of information. Completely against classical reasoning.
 
I think you guys got it. Sorry, I wasn't aware that so many clues were within the syntax of the riddle.

Thanks!

Mike
 
The wording of the question in the OP is pretty bad, as you aren't given a reason to understand why the ordering of the clues is important. The link to the MIT grads version of this problem is far more clear.
 
Originally posted by: JMWarren
I think you guys got it. Sorry, I wasn't aware that so many clues were within the syntax of the riddle.

Thanks!

Mike

So could you at least edit your first post to reflect the correct wording of the puzzle?
 
Originally posted by: MacBaine
Tell me why 3 - 4 - 6 doesn't work

It does work for the riddle as the OP worded it. The OP has no such clue about a sum equaling a product. For the OP's riddle, any 3 numbers that add up to 13 is correct.
 
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