Reality of WAR

[Kerouactivist]

My grandfather has always been an almost unmentionable name inthe family household

Unfortunately, I never knew my grandfather (died before I was born) he in a sense died in WWII.....
Until recently I only knew that my grandfather had served in Korea as a Master Sarg....

I always would ask my father growing up, what my grandfather did in Korea (in at least the since of being a history buff and wanting to know my own family a little better)...

Turns out he fought in WWII as well

My dad said he did his time over their and came back and never really talked about it much...thats all he would say.....

About a month ago I finally had the nuts to say what really happened why are you not telling me about my Grandfather's past?....(why is this such a secret etc.)....

He said that that while growing up his father would never talk about it...(my dad which was a history teacher for awhile obviously had an interest in knowing at least at that level).....

So I said how could you just not at some point ask him what happened?

He told me he did and all his father would say are names...North Africa...Anzio etc....

May as well tell this part here
My grandfather came back from Korea a drunk and got into some sort of possibly alcohol related accident that rendered his legs useless....anyways...its not talked about in my family at all....all of these things are taboo speak around my family

So again I said what did he say about what happened?...no he would never talk about it with us..and that the only time he would here anything of it was when my grandfather's army buddies would come over to the house... they would go off to a backroom and drink whiskey and talk about it and he was never allowed to go back there....
(BTW my grandfather was a very abusive parent...quick to hit or whatever if not listened too)...

His buddies would come by everyonce and awhile and wheel him off to the bar and presumably talk about the past I'll never know..

He told me a story about playing in a basketball game and coming home and his dad not being their and his mom telling him that I guess Jay is probably out with his army buddies, she had to track him down apparently they wheeled him home later for my grandmother to deal with...cleaning up after someone that is paralyzed from the waste down).....apparently this was a regular occurance
All I see are the medals on the wall but, somewhere behind that, their was a person at some point.....who he was I'll never know.....


These are the realities of war

 

[Kerouactivist]

"To be hopeful in bad times is not just foolishly romantic. It is based on the fact that human history is a history not only of cruelty, but also of compassion, sacrifice, courage, kindness... And if we do act, in however small a way, we don't have to wait for some grand utopian future. The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory."

 

[imported_Aelius]

"During the four months of the Anzio Campaign the Allied VI Corps suffered over 29,200 combat casualties (4,400 killed, 18,000 wounded, 6,800 prisoners or missing) and 37,000 noncombat casualties. Two-thirds of these losses, amounting to 17 percent of VI Corps' effective strength, were inflicted between the initial landings and the end of the German counteroffensive on 4 March. Of the combat casualties, 16,200 were Americans (2,800 killed, 11,000 wounded, 2,400 prisoners or missing) as were 26,000 of the Allied noncombat casualties. German combat losses, suffered wholly by the Fourteenth Army, were estimated at 27,500 (5,500 killed, 17,500 wounded, and 4,500 prisoners or missing)-figures very similar to Allied losses. "

Source

In the end the Allies were kicked out. One of several defeats early in the war for the US including the very first one in North Africa against the Germans.

Not sure if you knew but I figure if you didn't it might help shed a small light. However short of being in combat and under intense fire days on end I doubt anyone is able to really understand what those poor guys went through.

However don't get me wrong, lets not romanticize the US military. The glory days are behind it and soldiers today don't get to bayonet a Nazi through the chest. Today it's all highly politicized and has jack to do with freedom or protecting your nation. If it had the military would have drafted about 6 million soldiers and blanketed every nation actively or covertly supporting terror networks. Iraq not being one. I hope you aren't entertaining the thought of volunteering to become the next casualty in a misused military so you can perhaps relive what your grandfather once did as a way of connecting with him. I did for that very reason, tho I left due to schooling presures and thankfully not when I later realized the military is no longer used in clear "right and wrong" situations but rather only when it's politically motivated and even then it's a half measure at best.

Thanks to the media, TV, movies people tend to have a very skewed perception of war or what it means to us today.

I'm sorry if I ranted, didn't mean to hijack the thread or anything, I just hate to see the lives of many brave souls squandered and the memory of those who truly did die for our freedom to be tarnished. It wasn't my intention, but just in case you were thinking of doing what I once did I just thought maybe this would make you think again.

My grandfather didn't much talk about the war either but I can tell he wasn't in combat much if at all. He was a lucky SOB. There's this one story about the Germans retreating before the Russians and laying mines everywhere with the two armies no more then a few miles appart with my grandfather on a bicycle forced to stay between them (safest place apparently).

 

[Kerouactivist]

no not at all thank your for your thoughts...I by no means plan on joining the military

If anything my thoughts are one extended to the hopefulness to end war in all of its carnations

 

[datalink7]

These are the realities of war

I'd say these are your Grandfathers realites of war.

Everyone has a different experience I think, and they come home changed in different ways.

 

[maluckey]

I have a few stories of friends and relatives in various wars.

A friend of the family was a prisoner at Trblinka, one of the most notorious and bloody of the concentration camps. Between july 1942 to August 1943, 800,000 Jews were killed there. That is not of couse counting the Catholics and Gypsys, which also numbered in the Hundreds of thousands.

On to the story..... The family always said that he never talked about what went on. So, one afternoon, I sat down with a pad and paper and asked every question that I could think of, and he answered all of them.

He was stealing food from the ones who were too weak, eaither of mind or physical health, so that he could stay strong, and plot his escape. Even though he was only a teen at the time, he was large and used to strenuous work in the fields. Aug. 2, 1943 while working on the railroad, a revolt against the guards occurred, and he ran. They shot at him, and ran after him with the dogs. He ran for close to twelve miles, only stopping because he collapsed in front of a local farmhouse. The farmer hid him, and washed him down with something to hide the scent. They burned his clothes, and helped him to stay undercover for a while. He worked for the resistance, harrassing Germans where he could, and worked his way to the Russian front. Back at the camp......the Nazis crushed the revolt and summarily executed everyone involved, and many who were not. This revolt, coupled with the problems in the Warsaw ghetto, along with a revolt at another Polish camp, prompted the Nazis to execute all Jews at the Trawniki forced labor camp near Lublin. They also for good measure, executed all the Jews at Poniatowa in Nov. 1943.

Our friend wandered about Europe for two years, and left for America after feeling disenchanted with the people in Europe. He became a U.S. citizen, joined the United States Army, and served in the Korean War, and also during Vietnam era.

He stated that he never talked about it to most people because they would either judge him for what he did, or pity him. He wanted neither. He wanted to talk to someone who would listen, and who could understand. I feel honored to have spoken with him about it.

I have other stories, but for now, this will do. This is one reality of War.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everybody is against war and war is a constant with humanity.

We have met the enemy and he is us because we will not solve this puzzle.

We will not see that we don't want to see.

Because we died as children we need war to feel alive.

Like the moth to the flame.

What we fear unconsciously we recreate because we must, and yet cannot, feel.

 

[sonz70]

My grandpa servered in the DDay invasion, and never talked about it with anyone. He got drunk one day and talked about it with me. He was a tank operator, in one of the "supposed floating tanks" that sunk right out of the transport ship. He told me he had to use his friends body who was already dead to shield him against the bullets that were being shot at him till he got to the beach. Than he used other bodies to lay behind as he shot with a dead machine gunners gun. I won't go into the gory details, but after he was done talking, we were both white and he was crying. I always felt guilty for asking him after that, even though he said he had needed to get it out for the last 55 years.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: sonz70
My grandpa servered in the DDay invasion, and never talked about it with anyone. He got drunk one day and talked about it with me. He was a tank operator, in one of the "supposed floating tanks" that sunk right out of the transport ship. He told me he had to use his friends body who was already dead to shield him against the bullets that were being shot at him till he got to the beach. Than he used other bodies to lay behind as he shot with a dead machine gunners gun. I won't go into the gory details, but after he was done talking, we were both white and he was crying. I always felt guilty for asking him after that, even though he said he had needed to get it out for the last 55 years.

Dear dear sonz, you did a good thing. It was a tremendous honor that your grandfather chose you as a person he could trust with such deep deep pain. Believe what he told you.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Because we died as children we need war to feel alive.

Like the moth to the flame.

What we fear unconsciously we recreate because we must, and yet cannot, feel.

On the other hand, here's a case where you and I disagree, I think. But I don't want to commit myself to saying I disagree since I may not be understanding what you're attempting to communicate with that last sentence. Can you rephrase/clarify?

My own opinion is that mankind cannot rid itself of war for the same reason you described in the current thread on emotional argumentation: Many people MUST feel they're aligned with the "good side", the "best country", the "correct faith", since their sense of their own selves is so lacking. They therefore cannot acknowlege that the other side has legitimate claims, since doing so would undermine the "rightness" of their own side (and by extension, their own sense of worth). So rather than supporting the truly difficult work of negotiating just solutions to the world's complex problems, the masses often become filled with an almost jingoistic fervor, a necessary ingredient in the recipe for producing war.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Because we died as children we need war to feel alive.

Like the moth to the flame.

What we fear unconsciously we recreate because we must, and yet cannot, feel.

On the other hand, here's a case where you and I disagree, I think. But I don't want to commit myself to saying I disagree since I may not be understanding what you're attempting to communicate with that last sentence. Can you rephrase/clarify?

My own opinion is that mankind cannot rid itself of war for the same reason you described in the current thread on emotional argumentation: Many people MUST feel they're aligned with the "good side", the "best country", the "correct faith", since their sense of their own selves is so lacking. They therefore cannot acknowlege that the other side has legitimate claims, since doing so would undermine the "rightness" of their own side (and by extension, their own sense of worth). So rather than supporting the truly difficult work of negotiating just solutions to the world's complex problems, the masses often become filled with an almost jingoistic fervor, a necessary ingredient in the recipe for producing war.

It is all part and parcel of the same basic thing. It is a complex circular problem that I arc around from different directions. We were born perfect with a capacity for infinite delight. That was taken from us by being put down, compared to the other and made to feel bad. This fear that we are basically unlovable lies around our core, our original self that always and always be ok. This is what sometimes people come upon who have tremendous faith. They step over the feelings and see the God that is the truth, that everything is really perfection. That longing for what was, that perfect state when we were one and all with the universe is the thing our hearts desire in all our emotional wants. In everything we do we seek the life that we had.

But every time perfection starts to happen to us, every time we relax and let down our guard we have a panic attack, a fear that what happened before, being made to feel worthless, will happen again. We were murdered when we were defenseless and we never want to be defenseless again. So our military power is an extension of this fear.

You see that from this point of view you can cast light in every direction and round and round.

So part of the defense is identification with something good to cover our feelings of inadequacy but there is this other dimension, this longing to get back. Perfection lies on the other side of our trauma though, as in every hero myth where to get to heaven you have to go through hell. We long to suffer to get back perfection, but because of our fear we remain unconscious of this. We back into our trauma as we live our life, reliving our feelings of being unloved in failure after failure in relationship. And we crave situations where there is intensity of feeling because we are emotionally dead. We watch the news and say oh my isn't the world a dangerous mess. And while we are repelled by the death of war we crave the excitement. Any emotion at all is better than the deadness of the safe lives we've made. We unconsciously are drawn to recreate the fear of our past. And since what we fear is our psychic death what we do is kill ourselves. We will either awaken or destroy ourselves. We will either face the fact that we hate ourselves or we will become extinct.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam


So part of the defense is identification with something good to cover our feelings of inadequacy but there is this other dimension, this longing to get back. Perfection lies on the other side of our trauma though, as in every hero myth where to get to heaven you have to go through hell. We long to suffer to get back perfection, but because of our fear we remain unconscious of this. We back into our trauma as we live our life, reliving our feelings of being unloved in failure after failure in relationship. And we crave situations where there is intensity of feeling because we are emotionally dead. We watch the news and say oh my isn't the world a dangerous mess. And while we are repelled by the death of war we crave the excitement. Any emotion at all is better than the deadness of the safe lives we've made. We unconsciously are drawn to recreate the fear of our past. And since what we fear is our psychic death what we do is kill ourselves. We will either awaken or destroy ourselves. We will either face the fact that we hate ourselves or we will become extinct.

I don't think the bolded portions of your last post follow logically from what came earlier.

It's certainly reasonable that many/most people were traumatized when they were young, even to the point that being reminded of that abuse is terrifying. And it's entirely reasonable that such people would embrace a "cause", "religion", "USA, love it or leave it", or what have you, to assuage the resultant feelings of inadequacy. But feeling inadequate and/or fearful is not the same as being "emotionally dead". Where does that follow?

Also, even if I accepted the emotional death part, I do not see how

"And since what we fear is our psychic death what we do is kill ourselves. We will either awaken or destroy ourselves. We will either face the fact that we hate ourselves or we will become extinct."

follows from that premise.

Sorry I'm being so logical about this, but hey, I'm a scientist.

 

[judasmachine]

My grandfather drove a tank across Europe. From Normandy through the Bulge to the Elbe River. He would mention it sometimes but never in much detail, and you could tell it hurt him to think about it. He'd get choked up and get this distant stare, it was awful so no one ever pushed him to talk about it. On my mothers side it's a differant story though. Her dad drove a landing craft for the Navy. He said he had a blast, but I don't know if he's covering the darker parts, or he really enjoyed it. He's a kindly man, so I don't think he enjoyed it one bit. Now the Vietnam vets in my family are totally differant, they brag, like killing is something you do on a Sunday afternoon to pass the time. Well except for my father who spent the Vietnam War ('67 through '71) in New Mexico at a research center for the Air Force.

The only one to get alot of detail out of is my Mom's uncle Junior who is an acoholic and one who brags a lot. My great great grandad's exploits as a warrior are somewhat well documented. His name was (Tasunkakokipapi) Young Man Afraid of his Horses which means his enemys were so afraid of his prowess that they even feared his horse. If you google him you will see what I mean. Also you can read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, and see a picture of him.

And to all, Happy Memorial Day. I would explain that I feel there is a differance between warriors and soldiers, but so many of my family have went to war for this country only to carry on my family's legacy as warriors. I am proud of them, but for reasons I don't feel you guys would understand. May the thunderbird never interrupt their sleep.

[edit] bthorny, i guess your thread has wandered a little bit, sorry. I do look at some of my family and see the same things you are describing, and I feel your pain and frustration too.[/edit]

 

[Kerouactivist]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
My grandfather drove a tank across Europe. From Normandy through the Bulge to the Elbe River. He would mention it sometimes but never in much detail, and you could tell it hurt him to think about it. He'd get choked up and get this distant stare, it was awful so no one ever pushed him to talk about it. On my mothers side it's a differant story though. Her dad drove a landing craft for the Navy. He said he had a blast, but I don't know if he's covering the darker parts, or he really enjoyed it. He's a kindly man, so I don't think he enjoyed it one bit. Now the Vietnam vets in my family are totally differant, they brag, like killing is something you do on a Sunday afternoon to pass the time. Well except for my father who spent the Vietnam War ('67 through '71) in New Mexico at a research center for the Air Force.

The only one to get alot of detail out of is my Mom's uncle Junior who is an acoholic and one who brags a lot. My great great grandad's exploits as a warrior are somewhat well documented. His name was (Tasunkakokipapi) Young Man Afraid of his Horses which means his enemys were so afraid of his prowess that they even feared his horse. If you google him you will see what I mean. Also you can read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, and see a picture of him.

And to all, Happy Memorial Day. I would explain that I feel there is a differance between warriors and soldiers, but so many of my family have went to war for this country only to carry on my family's legacy as warriors. I am proud of them, but for reasons I don't feel you guys would understand. May the thunderbird never interrupt their sleep.

[edit] bthorny, i guess your thread has wandered a little bit, sorry. I do look at some of my family and see the same things you are describing, and I feel your pain and frustration too.[/edit]

I kind of like the direction the thread has gone, each telling their own experiences with their family. Thats interesting about your great great grandfather Tasunkakokipapi.....I'll have to read up on that.....I've alwasy wanted to read "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee".....I've also always wanted to read Leonard Peltier...My Life is My Sundance...Can't read em all...I'm working on it though

 

[GTKeeper]

My grandfather fought for the underground movement in Poland during WW II. He never talked about it, but you could tell that it took a toll on him.

Basically he was in hiding the whole time in forests etc. with his fellow soldiers. They took out what they could of the German military when they got opportunity. They all drank heavily to deal with the constant fear they had to face in the unknown every day. It was especially bad when they found out that a smiliar underground group was found out by the Germans and the whole forrest combed finely with guns and soldiers. No one survived, so for my grandfather it was a daily battle against utter fear.

This was happening all over Poland, and as many people DO NOT know is that Poland was the only country that try to revolt against the Germans later in WW II by actually taking back par t of its capital (Warsaw) for a little bit of time.

 

[Moonbeam]

S: "I don't think the bolded portions of your last post follow logically from what came earlier."

M: True, a finger pointing at the moon is not the moon. I was hoping you would fill in the blanks. I was not aiming for a logically tight case.

S: "It's certainly reasonable that many/most people were traumatized when they were young, even to the point that being reminded of that abuse is terrifying. And it's entirely reasonable that such people would embrace a "cause", "religion", "USA, love it or leave it", or what have you, to assuage the resultant feelings of inadequacy. But feeling inadequate and/or fearful is not the same as being "emotionally dead". Where does that follow?

M: First off, fear is not an emotion. It is the repression of emotion. Fear and terror are what a person experiences just before they fully drop into a past traumatic event in a psychotherapeutic experience, as ones defense barriers rise to the maximum capacity and break as actual memory floods in. This is the moment we transition between not knowing what we feel (repressing a feeling) to being alive (reliving) that feeling. Typically, I think, we begin with a state of depression, a kind of numbness of feeling especially anger, (being emotionally dead) to beginning to open up. We were powerfully punished for being angry as children and hate ourselves for our rage, our terrible ingratitude for those who 'love us' (to death as it were).

When we can come out with the anger then we can begin to feel the sadness that rage protects and shields us from. In the sadness we can begin to grieve for ourselves and heal. It is grief unfelt that blocks our emotional development, I think, and what we avoid like the plague.

Anyway hope this helps.

S: "Also, even if I accepted the emotional death part, I do not see how

"And since what we fear is our psychic death what we do is kill ourselves. We will either awaken or destroy ourselves. We will either face the fact that we hate ourselves or we will become extinct."

follows from that premise.

Sorry I'm being so logical about this, but hey, I'm a scientist."

M: No problem since your questions are sincere and clear.

Truth is paradoxical and when you deal with paradox you approach it because truth resolves opposites in a higher understanding. Just a thought.

Now, as I have suggested the way back to mental health is through the original trauma, but there is this tremendous fear of death, since we lost the state of perfection or if you will died to it. This is why the phoenix figures in all redemptive traditions in one form or another. You have to go through a kind of dying to be reborn.

But because we are unconscious or should I say, ignorant of our real condition, thanks again to the fear and avoidance it creates, we do not approach the matter straightforwardly via a psychoanalytic state. We attempt to feel our feelings vicariously without the memory part and we do it by unconsciously backing into situations that make us feel bad. I mentioned that we screw up relationships so we can prove we are unlovable, etc. We recreate situations which bring about our repressed fear. We are drawn like a magnet to recreate our repressed traumatic events. We unconsciously cause our own disaster. Multiplied by the all of unconscious humanity we move in the direction of our extinction. It's a he who lives by the sword dies by the sword kind of thing.

Because we died psychically as children we arm ourselves to the teeth so that can never happen again. We are terrified of being weak but it's all because it's how we already feel.

All our worst fears have already happened and because the memories are repressed we are impelled to recreate them in the unconscious hope we can come back to life because we know instinctively that under the trauma is our life. It is a circle without end as long as there is no memory. What we really fear is remembering and we would rather die than do that.

I cannot prove this mathematically. You need personal experience. But I see here a powerfully predictive tool that explains aspects of human behavior that are completely mysterious otherwise. Take some time and think about it. How is it that man continually sabotages his progress. This is a theory that explains a lot. Of course the real understanding can be had by reliving ones past but that ain't so easy.