Reality Check: It is now October

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
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Trump is also incredibly short-sighted and easily swayed. All you need to do is tell him what he wants to hear and he'll be your best friend. Not ruling out a fundamental shift in the investigation, but I suspect Mueller saw what happened to Comey and decided that it was better to feign cooperation with Trump (possibly including a token investigation) than to risk him obstructing justice again.

I think the most likely answer is that Trump (or more accurately, his lawyer) realizes he can’t fire Mueller without creating a constitutional crisis that has the potential to quickly spiral out of control. He got burned badly when he fired Comey and probably doesn’t want to get burned again.

Simplest answer is the most likely.
 

FIVR

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2016
3,753
911
106
Trump is also incredibly short-sighted and easily swayed. All you need to do is tell him what he wants to hear and he'll be your best friend. Not ruling out a fundamental shift in the investigation, but I suspect Mueller saw what happened to Comey and decided that it was better to feign cooperation with Trump (possibly including a token investigation) than to risk him obstructing justice again.

Trump has a slew of advisors to tell him when he's being fooled. Although he is certainly short-sighted and easily swayed, you must take into account those advisors and what they might tell Trump about Mueller and the danger he poses.


It should also not be forgotten that Mueller was a political tool for the GOP while he was at the FBI. I believe he presided over a multitude of fruitless investigations of various democrat-related causes. He is not the unimpeachable boy scout people seem to think he is.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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So it doesn't concern you that suddenly his investigation has switched from targeting Flynn and Manafort to now targeting DNC lobbyists? Even though Trump specifically said that he should be investigating DNC lobbyists instead of Trump/Russia? Even after Trump switches from constantly criticizing and threatening to fire him to suddenly being totally OK with him?


If Trump thought he was in any danger, he would be threatening to fire him. Just like he did for months and months to Comey and Mueller before and just like he does to everyone else.


Mueller doesn't target. He isn't any one's pet hamster.

(©ffice of tqe g}cput- J\tiortte}:J ®eneral
.l!lu.sl1ington, /.<!!. 20530
ORDER NO. 3915-2017
APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COUNSEL
TO INVESTIGATE RUSSIAN INTERFERENCE WITH THE
2016 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND RELATED MATTERS
By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C.
§§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and
management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the
Russian govemmenfs efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election, I hereby order as
follows:
(a) Robert S. Mueller III is appointed t() serve as Specia] Counsel for the United States
Department of Justice.
(b) The Special Counsel is authorized to conduct the investigation confinned by then-FBI
Director James 8. Corney in testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence on March 20, 2017, including:
(i) any links and/or coordination bet ween the Russian government and individuals
associated with the campaign of President Donald Trump; and
(ii) any matters that arose or may arise directly from the investigation;
and
(iii) any other matters within the scope of 28 C.F.R. § 600.4(a).
(c) If the Special Counsel believes it is necessary and appropriate, the Special Counsel is
authorized to prosecute federal crimes arising from the investigation of these matters.
(d) Sections 600.4 through 600. l 0 of Title 28 of the Code of Federal Regulations are
applicable to the Special Counsel.
Date ' 1

This isn't an investigation to investigate Flynn or Manafort. It's to do the above and if in the course of investigation it is found that the Podesta Group or individuals were involved with Russians improperly even if not involved with supporting Trump then they are proper parties to investigate IN ADDITION TO, not instead of, anyone else.

Typically these investigations take years, which has already been pointed out. It may catch a lot of people doing some naughty things indeed and that may be Democrats as well as Reps. It will be as it is, not a plaything.

Think as Mueller as the Honey Badger in the meme. He doesn't give one about you or me or Trump, his job is to get to the truth of things.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Both sides, amirite?



So predictable....

You are one I was thinking of. Yes both sides and I specifically stated that this was a qualitative thing. The Right uses "whataboutism" and you "Bothsidesism" to hide from criticism.

It's a dishonest approach and yes both sides have them. Suck it up buttercup.
 
Nov 29, 2006
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I mean ‘accuse the other side of whatever you’re in trouble for’ is one of the oldest plays in the book. The goal isn’t to convince people except for maybe the lunatic fringe, it’s to muddy the waters.

Thanks for the reminder. Been awhile since i listened to this song:)

 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
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Do people seem dumber/crazier over the last few years or is that just my perception?

It's the cumulative effect of decades of relentless right wing agitprop coupled with the top down economic class warfare it's designed to enable.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
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I feel like there’s a general unmooring of what you can trust that’s made people crazy. The right has long been victim to this with their dismissal of nonpartisan media but that sort of nonsense seems to be spreading to the left as well, although as you seem to allude to the left has a long way to go before it reaches the level of reality denial that the right routinely engages in.

Trump has made that much worse in a number of ways. One is that he lies so frequently and so egregiously about even small things. Partisans feel the need to defend this behavior because he’s on their ‘team’ even if that means ludicrously denying plain facts.

Second is that he’s corrupted our governing institutions in similar ways so we can’t trust them anymore. I mean we have things where the sitting president is accusing his own agencies of what amounts to a coup, declaring that the BLS was fabricating employment data under Obama but the same numbers while Trump is president are real. I’m not so naive as to think the government doesn’t lie to us when incentives are right but the work of professional agencies like the BLS has always been above that. Now...not so much.

When you have this much uncertainty it makes a lot of room for the crazies, something I imagine we will all come to regret even more than we already do.


It's another factor to add to the mix, another instability to take into consideration. We not only have political and authoritarian variations, but various degrees of consistency and stability to take into account. We've always had our questionable members of society but now it's worse. Look at the responses to my posts in just this thread. One might disagree with some points but the retreat into "both sides" is a shield from critical inspection. The Right would cover its rear against examination for a very long time and has gotten worse. Now many on the opposite side have adopted the same attitude but not yet (for the most part) reached that degree, but in kind it is real and increasing. "I don't care about them, I want mine" sort of thing being an accepted Liberal position as long as one hates Trump?

Trump has become a litmus test in some ways. You have to hate him in all things, Republicans in all things and even lie about some things and then maybe you will not get jumped on. Maybe.

As an example there was a report that a Republican wanted to limit access to ERs and immediately it was Trump this and Republicans attack the poor yada yada yada.

Well, no, not in this case. The stereotypical response of "it's people who don't have insurance who use the ER" isn't as true as some would like. It turns out that overutilization is mostly by insured whites nationally. In spite of copays they show up for a scratch. Poor people will use the ER instead of immediate care if they have public assistance as well. It just is. BAM, You think I'd burned the flag on a football field.

The intent of the legislation was this. If someone could go elsewhere for a trivial complaint the people at the ER could refer them to an immediate care facility rather than take up resources in a place where those are scarce. If the ER was the only resort then yes. If people didn't have insurance then yes, or at least that's what I found.

"Republicans want to kill the poor" Yep that was said and I got downvoted to oblivion as If I could give a toss. The point is that people even before they examine a thing have already determined intent and effect in complete ignorance and one had better not confuse them with facts.

Naturally someone might have pointed to confirmed points showing I was wrong. If I was then that's how it is, no biggie. But no one did. No application of reasoning was to be seen.

I find that troubling as the disease of unreasoning hate spreads.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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It's the cumulative effect of decades of relentless right wing agitprop coupled with the top down economic class warfare it's designed to enable.


So the left has become hateful and unreasoning too, or at least enough. Perhaps it isn't ideology which is the problem but the character of the individuals that embrace them. Certainly that happened to the Right a long time ago.

I would love to see the equivalent of a Biden/McCain ticket in 2020. Something which cements a relationship of Rationals irrespective of partisanship.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
Apparently the only reason Mueller is concerned with the Podesta group is that they were hired by a Manafort/Yanukovich front organization to promote Ukrainian interests in this country. If the Podesta group is guilty of anything it would probably be a lack of diligence in ascertaining that they were representing the then Ukrainian govt rather than what Manafort's group represented themselves to be. Given that the relationship ended with the turmoil in Ukraine back in 2014 it seems clear that they're gathering background information as to Manafort's means, methods & associates. To say that the Podesta group played any part in the massive Russian propaganda campaign to tear down Clinton & advance Trump would be a very, very long stretch.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
So the left has become hateful and unreasoning too, or at least enough. Perhaps it isn't ideology which is the problem but the character of the individuals that embrace them. Certainly that happened to the Right a long time ago.

I would love to see the equivalent of a Biden/McCain ticket in 2020. Something which cements a relationship of Rationals irrespective of partisanship.

"The Left" is, first of all, a complete misnomer. What Dems & Progressives support is capitalism modified to purposely serve the people rather than just the Capitalists & the lie of trickle down economics. A new New deal.

If this so-called "Left" has become more strident it's because of frustration in dealing with the attitudes & the results of dealing with our more conservative brethren whose minds are essentially poisoned.

Let's face it- there is no equivalent to the mindlessness of Trumpism & "Fuck your feelings!" on that side.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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"The Left" is, first of all, a complete misnomer. What Dems & Progressives support is capitalism modified to purposely serve the people rather than just the Capitalists & the lie of trickle down economics. A new New deal.

If this so-called "Left" has become more strident it's because of frustration in dealing with the attitudes & the results of dealing with our more conservative brethren whose minds are essentially poisoned.

Let's face it- there is no equivalent to the mindlessness of Trumpism & "Fuck your feelings!" on that side.


I understand frustration. If you think your "team" is immune to becoming mindless haters then I believe you to be mistaken. You are free to disagree but the irrationality runs deep in American and not all of it resides in Trump and his ilk.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,958
55,346
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It's another factor to add to the mix, another instability to take into consideration. We not only have political and authoritarian variations, but various degrees of consistency and stability to take into account. We've always had our questionable members of society but now it's worse. Look at the responses to my posts in just this thread. One might disagree with some points but the retreat into "both sides" is a shield from critical inspection. The Right would cover its rear against examination for a very long time and has gotten worse. Now many on the opposite side have adopted the same attitude but not yet (for the most part) reached that degree, but in kind it is real and increasing. "I don't care about them, I want mine" sort of thing being an accepted Liberal position as long as one hates Trump?

Trump has become a litmus test in some ways. You have to hate him in all things, Republicans in all things and even lie about some things and then maybe you will not get jumped on. Maybe.

It is real and increasing I agree, but I do say that I try to be very careful when saying 'both sides do it' because when it comes to this sort of reality denial it's technically true that both sides do it but it is still far more a Republican phenomenon. So I guess I would say 'both sides do it, but one side does it much more'. That might change someday but that's not today, haha.

I do see increasing spite and contempt for the right in the way that was formerly primarily manifested in conservatives. I mean they have been whipping themselves up into a lather about the evil liberals for three decades now but it's only recently that I've seen that sort of reflexive contempt for conservatives instead of from them.

As an example there was a report that a Republican wanted to limit access to ERs and immediately it was Trump this and Republicans attack the poor yada yada yada.

Well, no, not in this case. The stereotypical response of "it's people who don't have insurance who use the ER" isn't as true as some would like. It turns out that overutilization is mostly by insured whites nationally. In spite of copays they show up for a scratch. Poor people will use the ER instead of immediate care if they have public assistance as well. It just is. BAM, You think I'd burned the flag on a football field.

The intent of the legislation was this. If someone could go elsewhere for a trivial complaint the people at the ER could refer them to an immediate care facility rather than take up resources in a place where those are scarce. If the ER was the only resort then yes. If people didn't have insurance then yes, or at least that's what I found.

"Republicans want to kill the poor" Yep that was said and I got downvoted to oblivion as If I could give a toss. The point is that people even before they examine a thing have already determined intent and effect in complete ignorance and one had better not confuse them with facts.

Naturally someone might have pointed to confirmed points showing I was wrong. If I was then that's how it is, no biggie. But no one did. No application of reasoning was to be seen.

I find that troubling as the disease of unreasoning hate spreads.

This reminds me of that study on the backfire effect. People make hasty judgments and then when confronted with contrary information get defensive and double down as opposed to changing their mind and tribalism is just making it worse.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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It is real and increasing I agree, but I do say that I try to be very careful when saying 'both sides do it' because when it comes to this sort of reality denial it's technically true that both sides do it but it is still far more a Republican phenomenon. So I guess I would say 'both sides do it, but one side does it much more'. That might change someday but that's not today, haha.

I do see increasing spite and contempt for the right in the way that was formerly primarily manifested in conservatives. I mean they have been whipping themselves up into a lather about the evil liberals for three decades now but it's only recently that I've seen that sort of reflexive contempt for conservatives instead of from them.



This reminds me of that study on the backfire effect. People make hasty judgments and then when confronted with contrary information get defensive and double down as opposed to changing their mind and tribalism is just making it worse.

The "both sides" issue depends on meaning and context. Both sides as it is used from this specific perspective is a defense from the obvious. People on both sides irrationally hate. There is no invulnerability conferred by an ideology. That does not mean both sides are the same and that's what people fail to consider. The Right is much worse overall but that does not mean the Left is immune to moving in the same direction of thoughtlessness. "I can't lose" are often famous last words.

IMO the more justification based on some purity of principle I see claim the more concerned I become.

Almost everyone is born able to kill. That we resist doing so does not alter the nature of ourselves. Civil society calls for much introspection and I see less evidence over time.

Again that's my perception.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
I understand frustration. If you think your "team" is immune to becoming mindless haters then I believe you to be mistaken. You are free to disagree but the irrationality runs deep in American and not all of it resides in Trump and his ilk.

"Immune to becoming mindless haters"? Probably not, but we're nowhere near it, certainly not to the extent of Trumpsters. His election & that of our current congress is an eruption of irrational spite & hatefulness, a giant "Fuck You!" to the rest of America & the world.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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"Immune to becoming mindless haters"? Probably not, but we're nowhere near it, certainly not to the extent of Trumpsters. His election & that of our current congress is an eruption of irrational spite & hatefulness, a giant "Fuck You!" to the rest of America & the world.


An experiment for you if you are so inclined. Find something negative to say about the left. Anything about Hillary because she's not perfect. Work it into a conversation over at reddit. See how long it takes to be downvoted to oblivion no matter how rational your statement is.

Remember too that I'm not saying the Left is THE SAME as the loony right. "Both sides" as an attack is trite and ill founded when a poster is not arguing for absolute equivalence but characteristics which may be found in individuals regardless of ideology.

It isn't about what is but may be and that needs to be a concern to you.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,685
136
An experiment for you if you are so inclined. Find something negative to say about the left. Anything about Hillary because she's not perfect. Work it into a conversation over at reddit. See how long it takes to be downvoted to oblivion no matter how rational your statement is.

Remember too that I'm not saying the Left is THE SAME as the loony right. "Both sides" as an attack is trite and ill founded when a poster is not arguing for absolute equivalence but characteristics which may be found in individuals regardless of ideology.

It isn't about what is but may be and that needs to be a concern to you.

Hillary is irrelevant atm & in the future tense as well. Her political career is over yet she remains the nexus of irrational hatred from the Right. Going on about her is just a way to distract form the awful nature of what conservative voters have wrought in mindless obeisance to their usual wedge issues.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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Hillary is irrelevant atm & in the future tense as well. Her political career is over yet she remains the nexus of irrational hatred from the Right. Going on about her is just a way to distract form the awful nature of what conservative voters have wrought in mindless obeisance to their usual wedge issues.


You missed the point entirely, went defensive and went with the irrelevant. The experiment was about saying something which WAS NOT complimentary and watch what happens. You twisted this into something it isn't, about the Right. I know what they are. It isn't about them going on about her at all. It's about the inability to rationalize and discuss. You just went there yourself. If people cannot have a discussion about their positions but have to deflect onto the opposition no matter what that might be then they are pretty screwed because there can be no discussion of substance.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
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The intent of the legislation was this. If someone could go elsewhere for a trivial complaint the people at the ER could refer them to an immediate care facility rather than take up resources in a place where those are scarce. If the ER was the only resort then yes. If people didn't have insurance then yes, or at least that's what I found.
The thing is, insurance companies can and do deny "frivolous use" of emergency room already. If you go to ER for a scratch your insurance company will not cover that. My company spells it out very clearly during open enrollment every year. And I believe @Engineer posted just a few weeks ago about his insurance company denying emergency room coverage for his daughter because they did not deem it necessary enough.

The financial disincentive to stop unnecessary ER usage is already there. And it's big, Engineer's bill came out to be $17K. I really do not see how making frivolous use of ER illegal is going to help the situation. All it's going to do is add more regulatory cost without remedying the situation.
 
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brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
6,365
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"The Left" is, first of all, a complete misnomer. What Dems & Progressives support is capitalism modified to purposely serve the people rather than just the Capitalists & the lie of trickle down economics. A new New deal.

If this so-called "Left" has become more strident it's because of frustration in dealing with the attitudes & the results of dealing with our more conservative brethren whose minds are essentially poisoned.

Let's face it- there is no equivalent to the mindlessness of Trumpism & "Fuck your feelings!" on that side.

Trickle down economics? It's been trickle down for a long time. The Left is using the cover of political correctness to hide their capitalism and government trickle down economic policies.