Real wages fall at fastest rate in 14 years

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Vic
http://money.cnn.com/2005/05/11/markets/oil/index.htm

This is hysterical and personal this time.

Where I work we are now running on Diesel Generator and expected to run on it for at least a week.

One of the main feeder lines into the city blew yesterday. It was the first 90 degree day of the year and the most Air conditioners going so far. Apparently they didn't upgrade the line to handle all of the extra building (mostly Condos and Apts) air conditioners.

So they are asking high power usage customers to cut back while they "upgrade" this line.

5-11-2005 Oil prices edge higher after refinery outage sparks worries of supply crunch ahead of summer season.

A power outage triggered an unplanned shutdown at ConocoPhillips' oil refinery in Belle Chasse, Louisiana, Tuesday morning, igniting concern of tight fuel stockpiles ahead of the summer, when motorists take to the roads in greater numbers.

The Belle Chasse refinery has a daily capacity to process 250,000 barrels of crude oil and produce more than 100,000 barrels of gasoline.

The glitch fed into concerns already rampant among analysts that consumer countries are facing a crunch in refining capacity, keeping them from translating robust raw crude stockpiles into finished fuels.

U.S. gasoline futures rose 2.30 cents to $1.5103 a gallon.

A U.S. government report to be released Wednesday is expected to show an increase in crude oil stocks of 1.5 million barrels, adding to the highest inventories since 1999.

U.S. crude prices are about $6 below last month's record high of $58.28, even though OPEC producers have raised output to a 25-year high.

The global oil market is oversupplied by about 2 million barrels per day (bpd), OPEC's acting secretary general, Adnan Shihab-Eldin, told CNBC Tuesday.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond
Example: if capatilism requires a strong middle class how can you possible support Republicans?

I voted for Kerry. But you radical liberals are getting out of touch and out of control. I wouldn't be suprised if the Dems dump your type in the next year or 2, as they need to cater to real votes, new votes, and not just people who would never vote for the Pubs even to save their own lives anyway.

The problem with the current generation is that it is greedy. 22 year-old kids expect to be richer than their parents overnight. They want the best of it all, and any con man could tell you that that is what makes an easy mark.

It isn't "radical liberals' who caused this:

Real wages fall at fastest rate in 14 years

And it hasn't happened since the last Bush was in office.

Maybe it's the radical "conservatives" you should be worrying about. 😉

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond

Real wages fall at fastest rate in 14 years

And it hasn't happened since the last Bush was in office.

Maybe it's the radical "conservatives" you should be worrying about. 😉

As was already pointed out early in this thread, wages have not fallen, but inflation has risen (although still at a historical low pace). The primary cause of the rise in inflation is due to rising energy costs. The Fed (they, not the President, control monetary policy) has already taken steps to control this rise in inflation.
"Run in circles scream and shout" alarmism is not productive, but yes I do worry about ALL radicals, both left and right.

 

[BBond]

Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
inflation rising faster than wages isn't *exactly* the same as wages *falling*. However, yes, inflation is a problem right now, which we already now without sensationalist headlines. You may have noticed Greenspan and company doing some interest rate hikes and other adjustments to try and counter inflation? It does take more than a week or two to work, after all.

Relax. It'll all work itself out in the end.

Jason

A lot of the inflation would be fixed if the government didn't overspend nearly as much as it does. Interest rate hikes will counter inflation but it also slows the economy down. Fairly high inflation when the economy is just mediocre isn't good at all. Our economy isn't even close to full employment and we're already speeding up the breaks on it.

Hopefully it will work itself out in the end. It would be nice if we just went back to the fiscal responsibility of the 60s and before.

You mean the 1860's I presume? 🙂

Anyway, yes, it would be nice if the government would not spend more than it takes in, but good luck. All the pissant old farts and the young lazy layabouts will whine because they aren't getting their handout of Pork Program X, so it will never happen. Sadly, I'd bet the government will continue to overspend until the Democrats and Republicans destroy our economy completely.

Jason

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: fornax
ntdz, you're kidding, right?

No. I dare you to find the last thread conjur posted about something positive in this country relating to the economy, Iraq, or anything Bush related. Good luck 😉

"Liberals" thrive on recognizing reality and facing problems.

"Conservatives" thrive on happy talk as their leaders rob them blind.

Oh please. You can't even FIND a legitimate "Liberal" anymore. You're stuck with the jerkoff Socialists in the Democratic party and their Conservative ASS-buddies in the Republican party. Nice of you to PRETEND like modern-day "Liberals" (who are ANYTHING but Liberal) actually give a rat's ass.

Fool.

Jason

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: ntdz

Originally posted by: fornax
ntdz, you're kidding, right?

No. I dare you to find the last thread conjur posted about something positive in this country relating to the economy, Iraq, or anything Bush related. Good luck 😉

"Liberals" thrive on recognizing reality and facing problems.

"Conservatives" thrive on happy talk as their leaders rob them blind.

Oh please. You can't even FIND a legitimate "Liberal" anymore. You're stuck with the jerkoff Socialists in the Democratic party and their Conservative ASS-buddies in the Republican party. Nice of you to PRETEND like modern-day "Liberals" (who are ANYTHING but Liberal) actually give a rat's ass.

Fool.

Jason

Uh huh. Excuses. :roll:

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: BBond
Listen. This is really simple. People used to "get it" without an explanation but I suppose something has been lost on the current generation.

When you have "leaders" who make terrible decision after terrible decision who then limit MSM news to happy talk press releases, Michael Jackson, the runaway bride, American Idol, and whose finger is in the chili, you run the risk of developing apathy in the citizenry based on sheer lack of information.

In other words, unless you know what's happening, unvarnished, you can't make good choices and those leaders who make terrible decision after terrible decision are left to go on doing just that.

Example: if capatilism requires a strong middle class how can you possible support Republicans?

How about a REAL example: If Capitalism requires a strong middle class, how can you support EITHER of the current major parties? Answer: YOU CAN'T.

However, Capitalism *doesn't* "require a strong middle class". Capitalism, simply enough, doesn't *RECOGNIZE* the concept of "Class", only the concept of "Individuals". It's you jackasses who LOVE keeping your little "class war" going who bring up this nonsense BS argument, completely IGNORE the real beauty and substance of Capitalism. It's only by continuing to foster the idea of "class" and "class war" that you can continue on your little journey toward having your "Proletariat" rise up and "overthrow their Rich oppressors".

It'll be a great day if we can actually get an honest CLASSICAL LIBERAL on these forums. You sure as hell aren't it, and neither is your precious DUMB-o-crapic party. Face it, Republicans and Democrats are big time LOVE BUDDIES who wash each others' balls term in and term out. They're united against any and all third parties who might show them up for the sham they are.

Jason

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: BBond
Listen. This is really simple. People used to "get it" without an explanation but I suppose something has been lost on the current generation.

When you have "leaders" who make terrible decision after terrible decision who then limit MSM news to happy talk press releases, Michael Jackson, the runaway bride, American Idol, and whose finger is in the chili, you run the risk of developing apathy in the citizenry based on sheer lack of information.

In other words, unless you know what's happening, unvarnished, you can't make good choices and those leaders who make terrible decision after terrible decision are left to go on doing just that.

Example: if capatilism requires a strong middle class how can you possible support Republicans?

How about a REAL example: If Capitalism requires a strong middle class, how can you support EITHER of the current major parties? Answer: YOU CAN'T.

However, Capitalism *doesn't* "require a strong middle class". Capitalism, simply enough, doesn't *RECOGNIZE* the concept of "Class", only the concept of "Individuals". It's you jackasses who LOVE keeping your little "class war" going who bring up this nonsense BS argument, completely IGNORE the real beauty and substance of Capitalism. It's only by continuing to foster the idea of "class" and "class war" that you can continue on your little journey toward having your "Proletariat" rise up and "overthrow their Rich oppressors".

:thumbsup:

CsG

 

[BBond]

Speaking of two ball washers...

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond
Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

Wrong. From the OP's link:"Inflation rose 3.1 per cent in the year to March but salaries climbed just 2.4 per cent... "
Wages are up, they just haven't kept pace with the rate of inflation at this time. Not unexpected, as we just saw a rapid increase in energy costs, the rate of which has since cooled, so I expect this statistical situation to be of a very short-term nature.

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
How about a REAL example: If Capitalism requires a strong middle class, how can you support EITHER of the current major parties? Answer: YOU CAN'T.

However, Capitalism *doesn't* "require a strong middle class". Capitalism, simply enough, doesn't *RECOGNIZE* the concept of "Class", only the concept of "Individuals". It's you jackasses who LOVE keeping your little "class war" going who bring up this nonsense BS argument, completely IGNORE the real beauty and substance of Capitalism. It's only by continuing to foster the idea of "class" and "class war" that you can continue on your little journey toward having your "Proletariat" rise up and "overthrow their Rich oppressors".

It'll be a great day if we can actually get an honest CLASSICAL LIBERAL on these forums. You sure as hell aren't it, and neither is your precious DUMB-o-crapic party. Face it, Republicans and Democrats are big time LOVE BUDDIES who wash each others' balls term in and term out. They're united against any and all third parties who might show them up for the sham they are.

Jason

Very good post. To clarify, when I said "for the most part capitalism requires a strong middle class to ensure a healthy economy," I was not in any way encouraging any type of class warfare. In context with my complete post, I was condemning the socialists for their instigation of class warfare. What I meant was that capitalism thrives best when it has the largest number of individuals conducting commerce on an equal footing. Socialism OTOH can never justify its existence without large-scale poverty. This is (as evidenced by this thread) why socialists cheer bad economic news as an opportunity to spread their pessimism, and instigate further class warfare.

As for your last paragraph, that's why I'm a registered Libertarian. 🙂

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond
Speaking of two ball washers...

Give it a rest. Everyone here knows how the radical liberal socialists operate on these forums. Every bit of bad news is greeted happily.
Gas prices up? Radical liberal response is "I hope it goes to $12 bucks a gallon!"
Inflation goes up because gas prices go up? Radical liberal response is "It's all Bush's fault!"

In other words, you're completely full of sh!t. A radical extremist hell-bent upon your cause regardless of real-world reality.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Vic
As for your last paragraph, that's why I'm a registered Libertarian. 🙂

I just ignored and deleted it😀

There are alot of admirable things the Libertarian types push for but Conservatism as I see it envelopes quite a few of them so I'll stick with being a Conservative with Libertarian type tendencies😉
Change from within...

CsG

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond
Speaking of two ball washers...

Give it a rest. Everyone here knows how the radical liberal socialists operate on these forums. Every bit of bad news is greeted happily.
Gas prices up? Radical liberal response is "I hope it goes to $12 bucks a gallon!"
Inflation goes up because gas prices go up? Radical liberal response is "It's all Bush's fault!"

In other words, you're completely full of sh!t. A radical extremist hell-bent upon your cause regardless of real-world reality.

Emotions, primarily hate, have unbalanced their minds.

 

[HombrePequeno]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: HombrePequeno

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
inflation rising faster than wages isn't *exactly* the same as wages *falling*. However, yes, inflation is a problem right now, which we already now without sensationalist headlines. You may have noticed Greenspan and company doing some interest rate hikes and other adjustments to try and counter inflation? It does take more than a week or two to work, after all.

Relax. It'll all work itself out in the end.

Jason

A lot of the inflation would be fixed if the government didn't overspend nearly as much as it does. Interest rate hikes will counter inflation but it also slows the economy down. Fairly high inflation when the economy is just mediocre isn't good at all. Our economy isn't even close to full employment and we're already speeding up the breaks on it.

Hopefully it will work itself out in the end. It would be nice if we just went back to the fiscal responsibility of the 60s and before.

You mean the 1860's I presume? 🙂

Anyway, yes, it would be nice if the government would not spend more than it takes in, but good luck. All the pissant old farts and the young lazy layabouts will whine because they aren't getting their handout of Pork Program X, so it will never happen. Sadly, I'd bet the government will continue to overspend until the Democrats and Republicans destroy our economy completely.

Jason

I wasn't exactly talking about surpluses necessarily (although those would be nice). Before the '70s, government officials didn't want to run up huge deficits. The deficits they ran up were comparatively small to the ones were okay with these days. That changed with the '70s and '80s when economists and the government realized that overspending out the arse won't kill the economy.

That attitude has to change sometime soon though. Our debt is almost 70% of our GDP and it's only going to get worse in the coming years (thanks to good ol' Republicans fiscal responsibility). That's not the greatest environment for our weak dollar.

Unfortunately I don't see it getting fixed any time soon. Each side realizes the problem but neither side will agree to cut their side's programs to try to fix it. They just point to the other side's pork programs and ask 'Why don't you cut that?" Hopefully Congress will eventually grow some balls and start killing some of their programs.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: BBond
Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

That's not what the article says, asshat. It says Wages have gone UP, but not at the same rate as INFLATION.

Learn to READ, old fart.

Jason

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: BBond
Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

That's not what the article says, asshat. It says Wages have gone UP, but not at the same rate as INFLATION.

Learn to READ, old fart.

Jason

hence, real wages have gone down. nominal wages are a worthless figure.

 

[jjzelinski]

DMA, if wages aren't keeping up with inflation we are, in affect, making less money. Your $30k job is now worth $29k (or whatever) in real value. Money is afterall just an assignment of worth or valuation, if that value is lessened that is a bad thing, right?

 

[BBond]

DMA doesn't know how to admit when he's wrong. He only knows how to lash out.

He's still learning to play with the other children.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BBond
Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

Wrong. From the OP's link:"Inflation rose 3.1 per cent in the year to March but salaries climbed just 2.4 per cent... "
Wages are up, they just haven't kept pace with the rate of inflation at this time. Not unexpected, as we just saw a rapid increase in energy costs, the rate of which has since cooled, so I expect this statistical situation to be of a very short-term nature.

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
How about a REAL example: If Capitalism requires a strong middle class, how can you support EITHER of the current major parties? Answer: YOU CAN'T.

However, Capitalism *doesn't* "require a strong middle class". Capitalism, simply enough, doesn't *RECOGNIZE* the concept of "Class", only the concept of "Individuals". It's you jackasses who LOVE keeping your little "class war" going who bring up this nonsense BS argument, completely IGNORE the real beauty and substance of Capitalism. It's only by continuing to foster the idea of "class" and "class war" that you can continue on your little journey toward having your "Proletariat" rise up and "overthrow their Rich oppressors".

It'll be a great day if we can actually get an honest CLASSICAL LIBERAL on these forums. You sure as hell aren't it, and neither is your precious DUMB-o-crapic party. Face it, Republicans and Democrats are big time LOVE BUDDIES who wash each others' balls term in and term out. They're united against any and all third parties who might show them up for the sham they are.

Jason

Very good post. To clarify, when I said "for the most part capitalism requires a strong middle class to ensure a healthy economy," I was not in any way encouraging any type of class warfare. In context with my complete post, I was condemning the socialists for their instigation of class warfare. What I meant was that capitalism thrives best when it has the largest number of individuals conducting commerce on an equal footing. Socialism OTOH can never justify its existence without large-scale poverty. This is (as evidenced by this thread) why socialists cheer bad economic news as an opportunity to spread their pessimism, and instigate further class warfare.

As for your last paragraph, that's why I'm a registered Libertarian. 🙂

No problemo, I gotcha. Sorry if it came across like I was responding to you, I was really responding to Jerkoff Joe BBond, whose foam-at-the-mouth "I claim to be Liberal but I don't really know what Liberal actually means because I'm a Socialist" politics are out again in full force.

I bet he and Conjur have some secret love next somewhere in the 'burbs...

Jason

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
hence, real wages have gone down. nominal wages are a worthless figure.

But this is a short-lived statistic caused by a surge in oil/gas prices in March.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ElFenix
hence, real wages have gone down. nominal wages are a worthless figure.

But this is a short-lived statistic caused by a surge in oil/gas prices in March.

Oil and gas prices seem to be surging still.

Could be a lot longer lived statistic than you realize.

Dow takes beating as oil keeps rising

Wednesday, May 11, 2005
BY MICHAEL J. MARTINEZ
Associated Press

Stocks tumbled yesterday as rising crude oil prices prompted Delta Air Lines to warn of possible bankruptcy and Wall Street's rumor mill chewed over the possibility of hedge fund losses due to steep investments in troubled General Motors. The Dow Jones industrial average shed more than 100 points.

Delta's news led many investors to wonder whether other companies may fall victim to high energy costs, and added to Wall Street's now-chronic concerns high oil prices may lead to an economic slowdown, inflation or a worst-case combination of both.

"A lot of this downturn today coincided with Delta's announcement and the fact that crude was above $52 per barrel," Brian Williamson, an equity trader at the Boston Co. Asset Management, said. "That's got to make you concerned about who's next as far as companies go and whether this will really hit consumer spending."

In addition, analysts speculated several global hedge funds had suffered losses from holdings in General Motors stock and its bonds -- downgraded to "junk" status last week. The rumors were unsubstantiated, but were enough to prompt edgy investors to sell.

The Dow fell 103.23, or 0.99 percent, to 10,281.11.

Broader stock indicators also fell sharply. The Standard & Poor's 500 index was down 12.62, or 1.07 percent, at 1,166.22, and the Nasdaq composite index lost 16.90, or 0.85 percent, to 1,962.77.

The bond market rallied as stocks dropped, with the yield on the 10-year Treasury note skidding to 4.21 percent, down from 4.28 percent late Monday. The dollar was mostly lower against other major currencies, while gold prices rose.

Hedge funds -- which invest in a wide variety of stocks, bonds and derivatives to maximize returns and are considered riskier than typical stock or mutual fund investments -- were said to have been hit hard following the debt downgrades, which eroded the value of GM's bonds, and the significant investment in GM by billionaire investor Kirk Kerkorian's Tracinda.

"Obviously GM's stock got a boost last week on the Tracinda offer, then the bonds got crushed by downgrades, so they would've gotten hurt on both sides of that trade," said Todd Clark, head of listed equity trading at Wells Fargo Securities. "Against the backdrop of crude trading higher ... it's a little unsettling."

Despite the hedge fund furor, GM's stock stayed afloat, rising 20 cents to $31.53.

Crude prices were volatile ahead of today's government energy inventory report, which often moves crude prices substantially. After rising as high as $53.10, a barrel of light crude for June delivery settled at $52.07, up 4 cents, on the New York Mercantile Exchange. While well off their $58-per-barrel highs, the consistently high prices for oil have exacerbated Wall Street's worries about the economy.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex

Originally posted by: BBond
Q. Have wages gone up or down?

A. Down.

No excuses.

That's not what the article says, asshat. It says Wages have gone UP, but not at the same rate as INFLATION.

Learn to READ, old fart.

Jason

hence, real wages have gone down. nominal wages are a worthless figure.

No, that's not an accurate assessment. Real wages have *not* gone down, they just haven't increased to the same level of inflation (and by a VERY small margin, no less). The rate at which Inflation has outpaced wage increases is *incremental* at best and is most likely attributable to the current high energy costs. Fluctuations at this level are perfectly common and normal and are NOT an indicator that the living standards or the economy as a whole are tanking.

Jason

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: ElFenix
hence, real wages have gone down. nominal wages are a worthless figure.

But this is a short-lived statistic caused by a surge in oil/gas prices in March.

Oil and gas prices seem to be surging still.

Could be a lot longer lived statistic than you realize.

Dow takes beating as oil keeps rising

Crude prices were volatile ahead of today's government energy inventory report, which often moves crude prices substantially. After rising as high as $53.10, a barrel of light crude for June delivery settled at $52.07, up 4 cents, on the New York Mercantile Exchange. While well off their $58-per-barrel highs, the consistently high prices for oil have exacerbated Wall Street's worries about the economy.

 

[DragonMasterAlex]

Originally posted by: BBond
DMA doesn't know how to admit when he's wrong. He only knows how to lash out.

He's still learning to play with the other children.

Ah yes, this from the Socialist. You are so full of crap, BBond and you goddamn well know it. FOr an old fart you should certainly have learned by this point that minor fluctuations in inflation/wage ratios are COMMON and EXPECTED.

As usual, your DISHONESTY leads you to assert otherwise and mislead others in order to promote your extremist Socialist perspective.

Thank god you're old, it means there's a better chance you'll die off before the rest of us get too much further into the 21st century.

Jason