• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Real conspiracies

superstition

Platinum Member
I am not into conspiracy theories...

The Tuskegee Syphilis Conspiracy:
http://www.npr.org/programs/mo...res/2002/jul/tuskegee/

The Fernald/MIT/Quaker Oatmeal Conspiracy:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...F932A35752C0A96E958260

Plutonium and Radioactive Iron Injection Conspiracy:
http://www.democracynow.org/20...nium_files_how_the_u_s

American Eugenics - Hundreds of Thousands of Warehoused Children:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories...nutes/main614728.shtml

Slavery

Civil Rights Conspiracies:
Freedom of Information Act documents have proven that during the Federal Bureau of Investigation's COINTELPRO program, the FBI did plant informants who helped destabilize organizations such as the Black Panthers. Similarly, the recently released Mississippi Sovereignty Commission papers conclusively revealed that there was at least a state government conspiracy to track and harass civil rights leaders.
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...998_Oct_29/ai_53257761

Waters, says that "treating conspiracy theories as invariably mistaken is unrealistic in societies where concerted and secretly planned social action is an everyday accomplishment of industries and government agencies."

She has subjected Hofstadter's predictions to an empirical test and concluded that they don't hold true for African Americans.

"African Americans who believe in conspiracies are better educated than those who do not believe, they are active politically, they are in touch with the community, and they are closer than are skeptics to the front line of both interethnic conflict and cooperation," she says.

Iraq 1 (British colonialism):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl...ar/12/iraq.jamesbuchan

Iraq 2 (America):
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/18778

Bay of Pigs:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

Vietnam/Laos:
The document widened the credibility gap between the U.S. government and the American people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers
http://www.archipelago.org/vol10-12/gravel.htm
In 2005, however, an NSA declassified report revealed that there was no attack on 4 August. It had already been called into question long before this. "The Gulf of Tonkin incident," writes Louise Gerdes, "is an oft-cited example of the way in which Johnson misled the American people to gain support for his foreign policy in Vietnam."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

The Holocaust

The Pentagon's Illegal (due to its own Don't Ask Don't Tell Policy) Secret 1998 Handbook Policy to Retain Openly Gay Personnel During Combat:
http://findarticles.com/p/arti...5_Sept_27/ai_n15655525
While not a classified document, the handbook is for official use only and was extremely difficult to find. "Someone on the inside leaked this to me," Belkin says.

The handbook on how to mobilize and deploy troops specifies that openly gay soldiers requesting to be discharged for "homosexual conduct" cannot be let go if their unit is already preparing for active duty. Under such circumstances, the "discharge is not authorized. Member will enter [active duty] with the unit," the handbook states.

Pentagon officials have repeatedly denied such a policy exists, but the numbers tell a different story. In every conflict since World War II, discharges for gay "conduct" have plummeted when the country is at war only to rise again during peacetime. According to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, openly lesbian and gay soldiers are to be discharged immediately upon coming out, whether the country is at war or not.

Since military leaders claim that openly gay soldiers undermine unit morale, the practice of sending them into battle shows the "gross hypocrisy" of "don't ask, don't tell," said Steve Ralls of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. "There's no time when cohesion and morale are more important than when a unit is deployed into a war zone."

The list is endless. Anyone else have more to add?

Those who don't believe in the possibility of conspiracy ignore the fact that History is full of them, and there are plenty happening right now. Humans conspire. To pretend otherwise is foolish. Recognizing this fact does not justify anything, either.
 
Good OP, but be prepared to be deluged with people who will deny at any and all costs, and utterly ignore all proven and documented evidence of conspiracies. Pop culture has taught us to believe that conspiracies are all fantasies, and anyone who realizes the truth of the proven ones must be insane.
 
Yes, excellent OP. :thumbsup:

I can think of a great many more lies told to the american public and propaganda campaigns launched in defense of them, but I'm not sure they would qualify as conspiracies.
 
Conspiracies?

I don't question whether or not these things happened. It's just that I would not have termed some a "conspiracy". Like the Bay of Pigs invasion.

I guess it depends upon one's definintion of the word.

Fern
 
OMG....That warehoused children thing is so, incredibly sad. I wonder how people could ever go along and even condone such treatment of other human begins and I keep thinking back the Milgram Experiment. 🙁
 
Originally posted by: superstition
The Fernald/MIT/Quaker Oatmeal Conspiracy:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f...F932A35752C0A96E958260

FTA:
M.I.T. said on Tuesday that the exposure to radiation was about equal to the natural background radiation people were exposed to from the environment every year. The university also noted that a state panel in 1994 determined that the students had suffered no significant health effects from the experiment.

:roll:
 
One commonsense point that many forget is that there are real, hge resources out there designed to do things covertly and mislead about the source. We spend many billions on the CIA and other operations for covert activities, and yet, many pretend that they don't actually do anything.

On the other hand, while that's a great argument for any given theory being plausible, it's quite another matter to say there actually is a conspiracy, requiring some evidence.

For example, just today I was reading some of the history again on the Nixon conspiracy to overthrow the elected, socialist president of Chile; declassified CIA memos show that many millions were spent over a long period to discredit the left and manipulate their political system. Over half the opposition party's budget came from US funding. More money was spent per vote by the US than the two US presidential candidates, Johnson and Goldwater, had spent in total combined in our own election previously. The US was paying to try to shut down the

Chilean economy, to prevent them being able to get any goods, paying for strikes - and then twisting the economic problems to 'prove' that the left's policies were bad for the economy. And the memos made clear that it was important that the fact that the US was behind all this had to be hidden from discovery, which it largely was at the time.

At another level, people who want to commit crimes are often guilty of conspiracies which are hidden as well. One of the most famous murder cliches is 'make it look like an accident'; logic suggests that many 'accidents' are disguised murders, often conspiracies, as many such attempts are discovered, and there's every reason to belive that many are not, as they're designed not to be discovered.

When Valerie Plame was outed in retribution for her husband's exposing the administration's wrongdoing, it was reasonable to suspect the more ruthless partisans had conspired to do so - i.e., the Vice President's office. George Bush talked at the podium about how concerned he was at this very serious misdeed, but said the federal government is huge, it could be any of thousand of people in many agencies, ad he said, with wishful thinking, it's unlikely to ever be found out who leaked. But to his surprise, the information was found out, and wasn't an anonymous person in the bureacracy far from the White House, but was a conspiracy in the Vice President's office.

When the administration was advocating war with Iraq, it was ot unreasonable to suspect them of exaggerating the case; later, it was found there was a conspiracy in which they would leak information to the media, and then cite the stories quoting them anonymously as 'independent evidence' that it wasn't just them saying these things.

But these things need evidence to be more than theories - even if plausible, even probable, theories.

The Iranian hostage crisis was a huge help to the Reagan presidential campaign; the hostages being released at the moment he was inaugurated could just have been coincidence, a 'goodwill gesture'. Or it could be the treasonous result of the campaign secretly negotiating with Iran to make it worth their while to keep the hostages and not cooperate with the Carter administration. The fact that the same people were found guilty of a variety of similar conspiracies, often illegal, and especially the fact that some involved secret deals with Iran on hostages, later added great credibility to the theories of conspiracy. But no 'smoking gun' proof has been found, and it's possible there was no such conspiracy.

Similarly, some research suggests that the 1968 Nixon campaign, with the Vietnam war greatly harming the democrats, secretly reached out to the government of South Vietnam and offered them incentives not to cooperate with the LBJ peace efforts - which they did not. Again, later proven conspiracies with the same players add credibility to the theory, but I'm unaware of it being proven.

To simply pretend that the theories are outrageous until proven is as or more wrong than rushing to believe them - again, pretending that the CIA doesn't exist is guaranteed to make some of your denials of conspiracies wrong, just as believing every conspiracy is wrong too.

The only way to deal with this, in my view, is to understand that the topic has to be discussed in terms of educated theories and possibilities, not blanket denials or endorsements.

I'm pretty convinced Lee Harvey Oswald was the only shooter at Dallas, and that 9/11 consisted only of planes, not pre-planted explosives. But I think we should discuss other possibilities, while demanding proof for believing them. One of the better preventions for conspiracies is to see them as possible and investigate, not to blindly dismiss them and make them all the more tempting, with low risks.

It's easy to forget now that during the lead up to the Iraq War, one of the reasons the WMD argument worked as well as it did was the public being conditioned to such info being accurate. Colin Powell's UN speech was made to play off the credibility of the JFK administration's UN speech announcing the presence of soviet nuclear missiles in Cuba, made by Adlai Stevenson. It's easy to forget how many citizens said things along the lines of 'they wouldn't lie about something so important', and how much cover that gave the administration to do just that. Similarly, that's a reason Watergate was so damaging, because Nixon played off the public's long-established trust that the president would not cross certain lines for politics, and they got burned for it.

I think the OP is indeed useful for reminding people that the phrase 'conspiracy theory' should not be allowed to be used as name-calling to get people not to consider the theories, which would just make it easier to get away with conspiracies. The fact that people will ask if the administration were behind a 9/11 attack makes it far less likely they would be.
 
Originally posted by: venkman
OMG....That warehoused children thing is so, incredibly sad. I wonder how people could ever go along and even condone such treatment of other human begins and I keep thinking back the Milgram Experiment. 🙁

Wow. Some things I wish I was still ignorant on. 🙁
 
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: venkman
OMG....That warehoused children thing is so, incredibly sad. I wonder how people could ever go along and even condone such treatment of other human begins and I keep thinking back the Milgram Experiment. 🙁

Wow. Some things I wish I was still ignorant on. 🙁

I always find it interesting to look at the gap between the horrors that happen, and the public reaction to them that cares more about some than others.

For example, 2 million Vietnamese were killed by an unnecessary and even wrong war, many by Agent Orange and Napalm, but to most people, that's 'just a number'.

Lyddie (sp?) England, who was involved in the Abu Ghraib abuses, said - and I think she was right - that had they not taken the pictures, it would not have gotten any public reaction, because just hearing the words that 'prisoners were abused' doesn't get nearly the rwaction that seeing the photos gets. The fact is, the abuse and harm is the same.

I think Americans need to try to overcome the disinterest it's all too easy to have happen in the effects of our powerful nation's policies, and think of every 'stastistic' as a real person.

It's natural for people not to want to do that. The USSR and China don't seem to want to look a lot at Stalin's and Mao's atrocities; Japan minimizes its atrocities in WWII to this day; while Germany has faced them more than most, it's easy to understand their not wanting to pay a lot of attention after WWII to what their nation did to the Jews (and other nations).

But it's when the public does pay attention and refuse to condone bad policies that they're prevented.

Every example above - Stalin, Hitler, Mao, the Japanese militarists - got power with the consent of the public, at some level, by appealing to the desire for 'strong leaders'.

The public has to be strong enough to resist the temptation to turn a blind eye to wrongs done in a tradeoff to get 'strong leaders'.

The people who today fight against the US torturing prisoners are the real patriots.
 
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Good OP, but be prepared to be deluged with people who will deny at any and all costs, and utterly ignore all proven and documented evidence of conspiracies. Pop culture has taught us to believe that conspiracies are all fantasies, and anyone who realizes the truth of the proven ones must be insane.

It's not "pop culture" that has lead people to be skeptical of conspiracies, but the conspiracy theorists themselves. I've discussed this here many many times.
Two quick examples.
Groom Lake was used for testing top secret "skunk works" surveillance aircraft and then later as a toxic waste disposal facility. Conspiracy theorists tell us the government is covering up for aliens at Area 51. There is tons of proof of the former, none of the latter, yet conspiracy theorists ridicule all who question the stories of aliens as "government apologists."
The WTCs were brought down by airplanes. Everyone saw it. The proof is indisputable. Yet conspiracy theorists tell us the buildings were brought down, not by the planes, but by pre-planted explosives, yet can offer no proof of it. In fact, they can't even answer a simple question like why crash the planes in the first place when the govt could have just told us it was another bombing ala '93 or OKC. Yet question the squibs, and you're a "government apologist" who buys "the official story" EVEN IF you say that you think the government was involved.

So then when real deal conspiracies are presented, backed by mountains of evidence, no one believes them. Credibility has been shot, the people are tone deaf to the cries of wolf. That's why I always say that if the conspiracy theorists are right, then they themselves must be in on the conspiracies as agents of misinformation and distraction.
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Good OP, but be prepared to be deluged with people who will deny at any and all costs, and utterly ignore all proven and documented evidence of conspiracies. Pop culture has taught us to believe that conspiracies are all fantasies, and anyone who realizes the truth of the proven ones must be insane.

It's not "pop culture" that has lead people to be skeptical of conspiracies, but the conspiracy theorists themselves. I've discussed this here many many times.
Two quick examples.
Groom Lake was used for testing top secret "skunk works" surveillance aircraft and then later as a toxic waste disposal facility. Conspiracy theorists tell us the government is covering up for aliens at Area 51. There is tons of proof of the former, none of the latter, yet conspiracy theorists ridicule all who question the stories of aliens as "government apologists."
The WTCs were brought down by airplanes. Everyone saw it. The proof is indisputable. Yet conspiracy theorists tell us the buildings were brought down, not by the planes, but by pre-planted explosives, yet can offer no proof of it. In fact, they can't even answer a simple question like why crash the planes in the first place when the govt could have just told us it was another bombing ala '93 or OKC. Yet question the squibs, and you're a "government apologist" who buys "the official story" EVEN IF you say that you think the government was involved.

So then when real deal conspiracies are presented, backed by mountains of evidence, no one believes them. Credibility has been shot, the people are tone deaf to the cries of wolf. That's why I always say that if the conspiracy theorists are right, then they themselves must be in on the conspiracies as agents of misinformation and distraction.

Well, I didn't say anything about 'conspiracy theorists' themselves, more of the stigma that gets attached when the word 'conspiracy' is said at all. Usually a pack of people start attacking, because of the idiocy of the 'ZOMG Aliens' crowd inspires such silliness.

It really diverts from fair discussions of the real and/or probable conspiracies and events both in the past and of the present.
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Conspiracies?

I don't question whether or not these things happened. It's just that I would not have termed some a "conspiracy". Like the Bay of Pigs invasion.

I guess it depends upon one's definintion of the word.

Fern

It literally means to "breath together", which is quite obvious, no?
 
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Well, I didn't say anything about 'conspiracy theorists' themselves, more of the stigma that gets attached when the word 'conspiracy' is said at all. Usually a pack of people start attacking, because of the idiocy of the 'ZOMG Aliens' crowd inspires such silliness.

It really diverts from fair discussions of the real and/or probable conspiracies and events both in the past and of the present.

Then we agree. Except that I blame the 'ZOMG Aliens" crowd for the stigma attached to the word "conspiracy."
And this goes way beyond conspiracies. I have found it almost impossible to present outside-the-box ideas about government to normal people without being labeled a conspiracy theorist, even when you're not presenting any kind of conspiracy and can back up your ideas with logic and facts.

But wait! I predict that one of the 'ZOMG Aliens' crowd will now attack me as an apologist...
 
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Arkaign
Well, I didn't say anything about 'conspiracy theorists' themselves, more of the stigma that gets attached when the word 'conspiracy' is said at all. Usually a pack of people start attacking, because of the idiocy of the 'ZOMG Aliens' crowd inspires such silliness.

It really diverts from fair discussions of the real and/or probable conspiracies and events both in the past and of the present.

Then we agree. Except that I blame the 'ZOMG Aliens" crowd for the stigma attached to the word "conspiracy."
And this goes way beyond conspiracies. I have found it almost impossible to present outside-the-box ideas about government to normal people without being labeled a conspiracy theorist, even when you're not presenting any kind of conspiracy and can back up your ideas with logic and facts.

But wait! I predict that one of the 'ZOMG Aliens' crowd will now attack me as an apologist...

^^

:laugh: and truth!

Yeah it really makes it difficult to present evidence / arguments about real conspiracies when the whole stigma of loonybinners is attached involuntarily.
 
Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek
Gulf of Tonkin

I've never been clear how much of the Gulf of Tonkin's two incidents involved intentional false reporting, versus accidental.

I did hear a recorded exchange as the second incident went up the chain, as a senior office was trying to confirm whether it had happened. The exchange was pretty remarkable for how uncertain the information was, and you could just see it being changed as it went fro person to person up the chain.

If I've read correct info, the incident that did happen involved our destroyers escorting terrorists we'd trained into North Vietnamese waters - we hardly had the high ground at all, much less to justify a war to kill two million people over the purported incidents. The lesson we still haven't learned is how to prevent such easy justification for war by the government.

For all the hand-wringing about the Bushies finally setting the precedent for aggressive war, our requirement for being attacked first has been so flimsy and manipulated that we've had aggressive war as a policy by any practical measure for pretty much the history of our nation, with the thinnest of pretense in nearly every war.
 
Originally posted by: superstition
The stigma is designed to keep people from questioning.

It's not "designed." It exists. You can't trying to encourage people to question what's going on while simultaneously implying that they are mindless automatons under the control of evil puppetmasters.
 
Originally posted by: Throckmorton
How about Henry Ford and the Nazis?

No conspiracy there. His personal newspaper for airing his hate and prejudices, the Dearborn Independent, was one of the highest circulating papers in the country while it lasted.
And the same time, the '20s-era KKK had over 4 million members. So not really a conspiracy, just an attitude of racism that was prevalent at the time.
 
Back
Top