Ready to make the widescreen LCD plunge, but could use some suggestions

[Starbuck1975]

I have posted in the past on the LCD sticky thread, and have read the reviews provided by xtknight, and others, on several occasions. However, the 19" and 20.1" LCD options out there have never quite hit that price/performance sweet spot I am looking for.

In recent weeks and months, the 22" and 24" widescreens seem to be all the rage. I am looking for an LCD, primarily for gaming, with enough screen real estate to truly enhance my gaming experience.

However, I have a few concerns:

Not sure if my current rig has enough power to run a 22" or 24" widescreen LCD at native resolutions. I mostly play RTS games, with a few RPG and FPS games thrown in for good measure. To give you an indication, Company of Heroes, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights 2 and Half Life 2 take up most of my time as of late...so I have some concern regarding ghosting.

I am not really concerned about lots of extra capabilities on the monitor. Don't require USB ports, speakers or any of those capabilities. Just a solid monitor with bright, vivid colors and a response time suitable for gaming.

So some questions:

1. Does my current rig have enough power to even run a 22" or 24" at native resolution?

2. Most of the 22" and 24" LCD monitors on the market right now are fairly recent additions, so there are not a lot of reviews out there that indicate a clear winner.

In terms of budget, I am looking to spend around $600 to $800.

So assuming I can even enjoy games on a 22" or 24" widescreen LCD with my current rig, any recommendations...or website where perhaps they have done a widescreen round-up of reviews?

 

[Gamingphreek]

1. Yes you should be able to run at their native resolution, however you will sacrifice IQ. On games like Oblivion, NWN 2, Flight Sim X I wouldn't expect to be able to turn up the settings.

On Oblivion at 12x10 on my Rig I have to turn down some of the grass fading settings and occasionally a shadow setting. On NWN 2, mostly due to poor coding IMO, you will experience huge slowdowns. On my rig I had to turn down the settings to around medium to get the game to run fairly smooth. I have a feeling a lot of it is bugs and memory leaks because if I exited the game and went back in and loaded it was fine. Half Life 2 should run just fine at High Quality Settings still, though you may not be able to crank up TAA, AA, or AF too high.

On a 24" display you would be running a native resolution of 1920x1200. Your probably looking at medium IQ settings with no AA or AF.

2. Umm, I apologize but thats not exactly a question lol. If you are asking for a recommendation, xtknight is a far better source than I. But I have always like and found Samsung and Dell displays (Using either the AUO or Samsung Panel) to be superb.

If you want to retain high quality settings you will have to wait until R600 or buy a Geforce 8800 GTS/GTX.

-Kevin

 

[Starbuck1975]

I did notice that Neverwinter Nights 2 is a resource hog. As for native resolutions and eye candy, I don't have a problem turning down the graphics features of a game to get decent framerates.

I would just go with the Dell 2407 or E228WFP because the prices are reasonable, but the the whole panel banding fiasco of the 2007wfp has me somewhat skeptical of Dell LCDs.

I do check xtknight's sticky thread weekly, but he never seems to recommend any 22" or 24" widescreen LCDs for gaming...only widescreen he consistently recommends is the 20.1" NEC, but its price point is a bit high IMO for what you get.

EDIT: Added a poll, and also came across the Sceptre x22wg which seems to have a nice balance of features for the price.

 

[Painman]

The 22" is gonna be easier on your 7900 for sure, but you might find the pixels blocky. The 20.1' NEC is nice, but coming from running 1600x1200 on CRT already, I agree that the non-upgrade in real estate for $600 is a negative.

As for the 24" panels - might as well throw the Gateway 24" into the mix. It's another S-PVA like the other 2. Its advantage is wide B&M availablility, so you can get rid of it easily if you don't like it. I might give one a shot; I don't want a 22"/1680 and I can't really justify the price of upcoming 24" S-IPS panels.

 

[ebeattie]

Depends on what type of gaming your looking at doing. If your main games are FPS, then a TN panel will be your best bet. TN isnt the best by far, but it has the best response time. I just bought the Sceptre 22" and if you visit www.hardforums.com and do a search for Sceptre X22WG, your will find a huge thread dedicated to it. Its what helped me make my desicion.

If your into slower paced games like RTS or MMORPG, a 24" would be best. Great colors and viewing angles, but there is input lag if playing fast paced games.

But to give the Sceptre its due, it sports a 1200:1 contrast ratio which isnt too bad, as well as displaying 16.7 million colors. From what I understand the TN panels use dithering to make some of the colors, but if you visit the thread at hard forums, there is alot of input and a few good pictures. and for about 300 bucks its a steal.

I look at the 22" series of displays as a stepping stone type deal. I expect a good monitor with good response, but Im not expecting the world when it comes to color reproduction. For ~$300, a 22" will be a good display, yet not break the bank. Also, I expect there to be some good advancements on high quality panel types with awesome response times so a $300 dollar panel should make it easier to save for an upgrade. But ultimately, the decision on what your going to do most with the computer will determine the type of monitor you get.

Good luck.

 

[dennilfloss]

If I were to buy a 24" widescreen (and I am slowly leaning towards this), I'd rate them as BenQ FP241W>Gateway FPD2485W>Dell 2407WFP. Here are some threads you can read to see the little quirks each model has and what revisions fix those.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1064124
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1114872
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1066372

Samsung also just released a 24" TN panel if response time is more important to you than viewing angles and colour gamut.

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1150495

 

[HannibalX]

I have the Samsung 225BW and love it. There are better and worse displays out there than the 225. For the price though I am VERY happy with it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

As I suspected, the playing field once again has a wide array of options, with no clear winner.

Both Dell LCDs appeal to me, and given their warranty options, that is certainly a consideration.

My current CRT monitor is a Samsung, and I have been very impressed with their offerings over the years...and given the price point of the Samsung 225BW, it is a serious contender in terms of bang for the buck.

The Sceptre is also tempting, given the array of features for the price...but I am not that familiar with them as a company, and no local brick and mortar stores offer them for me to give their LCDs a look in person.

Looks like some more reading and research is in order.

 

[xtknight]

The BenQ FP241W is good for gaming. Better than any of the LCDs listed in your poll. It's available for $770 and has better performance than any other 24" LCD. How can you beat that? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16824014124

Note that I'm not sure if it has 1:1 pixel mapping yet, but I don't think the Dell has either until extremely recently.

The NEC 20WMGX2 is even better (even if it's smaller) and it's easier on your graphics card. IMO none of the 22" LCDs are worth considering for gaming. They are all TNs with rather poor color reproduction compared to the other options you have. Still if you had to get a 22" make it the Acer AL2216WBD, it seems to have the least backlight/color issues. The Dell E228 is something you should run far from.

 

[chizow]

I've recently gone through this decision-making process, as have a lot of others (just search for Dell, 22" or 24" and you should get 10-15 thread hits in the last week or so). I started with a Dell E228wfp and now I have a 2407wfp. Price is certainly a big difference between the two, but I'm extremely pleased with the 2407wfp despite the fact Dell gave me an A03 that doens't do 1:1 pixel mapping when they released the A04 which does.

As others said, the 22" TN panels are slightly better in terms of gaming response times and input lag, however, the resolution is somewhat low on a panel that big to give you the desired "big screen gaming" experience you'd expect on a panel that size. The 24" at 19x12 gets it perfect without having to worry too much about your video card struggling. I'm still a bit worried about future titles at 19x12 but I have options when the time comes.

In your OP, you said you mostly play RTS and some RPG games, so I don't think the input lag of the 24" Dell would bother you that much. The extra real-estate is definitely an improvement over the 22" as well as the better viewing angles and color reproduction. All of the 24" would fit in your budget, although you could also consider going with a 22" and stepping up your video card with the remainder. This would be a somewhat unbalanced pairing though imo. People will tell you to run the 16x10 22" with AA and AF turned up, but honestly I'd rather drive 19x12 on a 24" without AA and AF.

Most importantly, I would see if you can find a place that lets you look at the monitors in person. I tried to do this knowing I would get a Dell by going to one of their Kiosks, but that was relatively pointless since they amazingly didn't have either the 22 or 24 on display. The only thing I took from that trip was getting an idea of how much bigger the screen was compared to my 19" 4:3 LCD compared to the 21" they had on display. A place like Frys, CompUSA, or MicroCenter should give you a better idea though if you go knowing the types of panels used in each model to get a common point of reference.

Good luck, no matter what you decide on I think you'll be happy with the step-up from your old monitor.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Thanks for the overview chizow. I know there are a lot of threads out there already, but it is difficult to stay current on the pros and cons of different brands, models and technologies.

Honestly, when I went through this same exercise a year ago, and was looking for a 20.1" widescreen, I settled on the NEC 20WMGX2...however, at a price point of nearly $800, I couldn't justify the purchase...now that they have dropped to the high $500s, may be worth another look.

After doing some more research, I am taking the 22" option off the table...for the reasons you mentioned, and others, doesn't seem like the 22" is the right choice for.

I do play enough FPS games such that I am somewhat concerned about response times. I have heard a lot of good things about the Dell ultrasharp 2407WFP A04 for gaming.

So, for about the same price point, do I go with the NEC 20WMGX2, Dell 2407wfp A04, or another comperable 24" monitor.

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
So, for about the same price point, do I go with the NEC 20WMGX2, Dell 2407wfp A04, or another comperable 24" monitor.

That's pretty much what I'm looking at. Do I go with the extra size of the 2407 and hope the input lag isn't a big deal, or do I sacrifice size and go with the stunning picture of the 20WMGX2? I'm sure colors and black levels would be better on it, but the price...if the NEC were a 22" panel the decision would be MUCH easier.

I think I read that there would be a 24" version of the NEC, but if the 20" is $600 I can't imagine the price of the 24". Perhaps now isn't the best time for me to upgrade from the 2001FP.

 

[CorCentral]

Originally posted by: Trinitron
I have the Samsung 225BW and love it. There are better and worse displays out there than the 225. For the price though I am VERY happy with it.

Another vote for the 22" Samsung 225BW Got mine for $400.00 shipped from CC. A little higher than most places but if I needed to return it because of dead pixels, etc, I would'nt have to deal with shipping it back somewhere, I could just exchange locally

 

[xboxist]

The 24" BenQ is better than the 24" Dell. Don't listen to your poll -- it's coming from people that have never used the BenQ.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Had a chance to hit Fry's over lunch, and they had the Gateway 24" set up in proximity to the 20WMGX2. Bad thing about brick and mortar stores is they rarely have the monitors hooked up to PCs, and even if they do, those PCs don't have games installed where you can actually get a feel for the difference in gaming on a 20.1" vs. a 24".

That being said, the extra real estate on the 24" definitely caught my attention. I would probably just go with the 20WMGX2 were it not for the fact that for the same price, I can get a 24".

Decisions, decisions.

 

[Imyourzero]

Originally posted by: xboxist
The 24" BenQ is better than the 24" Dell. Don't listen to your poll -- it's coming from people that have never used the BenQ.

How so? I'm not disputing you, but I'm considering the Dell and would like to know the advantages of the BenQ. TIA.

 

[Starbuck1975]

While we are talking 20.1" widescreens, I would go with a Dell 2007WFP, assuming the latest revisions fix the banding issue from when they first released.

I know Dell does change their panels relatively frequently...anyone know if the latest revs of the 2007WFP are any good, and if so, what kind of panels they use?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Had a chance to hit Fry's over lunch, and they had the Gateway 24" set up in proximity to the 20WMGX2. Bad thing about brick and mortar stores is they rarely have the monitors hooked up to PCs, and even if they do, those PCs don't have games installed where you can actually get a feel for the difference in gaming on a 20.1" vs. a 24".

That being said, the extra real estate on the 24" definitely caught my attention. I would probably just go with the 20WMGX2 were it not for the fact that for the same price, I can get a 24".

Decisions, decisions.

Ya, sadly most B&Ms have all of their LCDs daisy-chained onto some poor quality generic video demo. Maybe try a Gateway store and see if they have some LCDs hooked up where you can get a better idea of gaming performance.

The difference between a 20.1 and a 24 should be pretty profound though. In terms of both resolution and size, I think the 24 would better suit your interest in experiencing the "big screen gaming" experience. I read quite a few reviews on the 8800 series which piqued my interest in large wide aspect LCDs because I couldn't count the number of times reviewers raved about gaming on a 27"+ LCD at 2560. I wasn't ready to make the plunge yet though on a $1200+ LCD and 2 x $500+ video cards though, so I settled on a GTS and a 22 or 24" LCD.

It seems like viewing aspects and color reproduction are important to you though, so ya, I'd definitely take the 22" TN panels off the board. I went with Dell mainly because of their price and return/dead pixel policy, but I'm sure the BenQ, Gateway and Samsung are as good or better. I love Newegg, but I've gotten enough duds and products I wasn't completely satisfied with to convince me buying a $700 LCD with a no-refund policy wasn't something I wanted to do based on a few pictures and reviews on the internet.

Other than the ability to do 1:1 aspect ratios, I'm not sure if the A04 has any other improvements over the A03. I'm still within my 21 day return window with Dell, but after my experience with the E228wfp, I'm going to stick with the A03 because its flawless (in terms of build quality, no dead pixels, bent stand, bleeding, scratches etc.) and meets my expectations. If you do decide on the A04, I'd wait until maybe March to place your order as there's still plenty of A03 in their distribution lottery. I didn't want to wait though, as they were on sale for $674 and I had a 10% coupon from one of their flyers bringing my total to $636 shipped including tax.

Here's a few pics though giving you an idea of the difference between 1280x1024, 1680x1050 and 1920x1200. I didn't resize the jpgs, so if you're on a CRT you can change your resolution to fit them. Also keep in mind the actual image quality varied from monitor to monitor, its just to give you an idea of how much more immersive your gaming experience will be.

1280x1024
1680x1050
1920x1200

I think pretty much everyone, even the most discerning LCD enthusiasts, will agree there is currently no "perfect" monitor on the market right now, no matter how much money you throw on the table. Just need to find the one that has the least negatives and most positives for what you want to do with it.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I think pretty much everyone, even the most discerning LCD enthusiasts, will agree there is currently no "perfect" monitor on the market right now, no matter how much money you throw on the table. Just need to find the one that has the least negatives and most positives for what you want to do with it.

That is a pretty sad state of affairs...the situation was pretty much the same a year ago when I was in the market for a gaming LCD.

Here's a few pics though giving you an idea of the difference between 1280x1024, 1680x1050 and 1920x1200. I didn't resize the jpgs, so if you're on a CRT you can change your resolution to fit them. Also keep in mind the actual image quality varied from monitor to monitor, its just to give you an idea of how much more immersive your gaming experience will be.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. No doubt I am sold on the notion of playing in 24" widescreen glory...just a question of there being a suitable monitor for the task.

Since you have the Dell 2407, out of curiosity, do you play any FPS games, and if so, do you notice any lagging or ghosting. I have read numerous reviews for the 2407...some say it is the best price point large LCD for gaming, others complain of mouse lagging and extreme ghosting...curious to hear your impressions of the 2407.

I wasn't ready to make the plunge yet though on a $1200+ LCD and 2 x $500+ video cards though, so I settled on a GTS and a 22 or 24" LCD.

The only reason why I am still shopping around for a Dell...brick and mortar stores charge extra for the warranty convenience of a replacement, and newegg is a bit of a gamble in the event you lose the LCD lottery. Dell, even if they aren't perfect, allow you to keep playing the exchange game until you get a good monitor.

Although at work, I use a Dell 1905FP REV 3, and love it. Our office has hundreds of Dell LCDs, and haven't heard one person encounter problems with theirs.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
That is a pretty sad state of affairs...the situation was pretty much the same a year ago when I was in the market for a gaming LCD.

I haven't really followed the trend too much, but I think they have improved greatly since my Dell 1900FP, which I thought was splendid when I got it 3 years ago. I guess at some point they got response time down to acceptable levels for gamers, now the major concerns are input delays along with the color reproduction and viewing angle concerns from the past.

Thank you for taking the time to do this. No doubt I am sold on the notion of playing in 24" widescreen glory...just a question of there being a suitable monitor for the task.

Since you have the Dell 2407, out of curiosity, do you play any FPS games, and if so, do you notice any lagging or ghosting. I have read numerous reviews for the 2407...some say it is the best price point large LCD for gaming, others complain of mouse lagging and extreme ghosting...curious to hear your impressions of the 2407.

I used to strictly play FPS games, pretty competitively as well. Seems hard to believe considering I played most of them on the 1900FP, which by today's standards, would be unplayable. Again, an example of of ignorance being bliss and how much you're willing to tolerate. I don't really notice any ghosting on the 2407, the screen is bright and the contrast is great but I haven't run any of the newer FPS games as I mainly spend my time playing FFXI (MMORPGs are the devil, btw). There was some blurring of avatar names if I rotated 360 quickly or avatars scrolled by quickly, but I turned on Vsync and its much less noticeable. I guess the closest thing to an FPS I've run is 3DMark05 and 06 and any blurring was less noticeable in those demos than in FFXI, so it could just be the result of a 5 year old game. Still looks great though, nice thing about FFXI is it scales with higher resolutions with a simple registry edit. I'll try and download some FPS demos and maybe load up the copy of Dark Messiah that came with my GTS this weekend.

As for mouse/input lag, that may be a valid concern. Its hard for me to tell since I haven't run any FPS games, but Zebo linked an article about it in one of the previous Dell threads. It shows pretty clearly that what you see and what you should see can vary based on the monitor and input devices you're using.

The only reason why I am still shopping around for a Dell...brick and mortar stores charge extra for the warranty convenience of a replacement, and newegg is a bit of a gamble in the event you lose the LCD lottery. Dell, even if they aren't perfect, allow you to keep playing the exchange game until you get a good monitor.

Although at work, I use a Dell 1905FP REV 3, and love it. Our office has hundreds of Dell LCDs, and haven't heard one person encounter problems with theirs.

Ya picking a monitor is probably the biggest dilemma PC enthusiasts struggle with, so peace of mind is worth something when dealing with so many question marks. Gateway might offer a similar exchange policy with the convenience of a B&M, but other than that, I didn't want to risk trying to get my panel replaced under warranty by someone other than Dell.

 

[zavar]

There's an article on X-bit labs which says the following about input lag:

Here?s my conclusion to this section:

A) There is indeed an input lag on some monitors. The maximum value of the lag that I?ve seen in my tests is 47 milliseconds

B) A lag of this value cannot be noticed at ordinary work or in movies. It may make a difference in games for well-trained gamers, but wouldn?t matter for most other people even in games.

C) You may feel discomfort after changing your monitor with a model that has a larger diagonal and resolution due to low speed or sensitivity of your mouse, low speed of your graphics card or due to the different size of the screen. However, many people read too much of forums and are inclined to blame the input lag as the cause of any discomfort they may feel with their new monitor.

Cutting it short, the problem does exist theoretically, but its practical effect is greatly overstated. An absolute majority of people won?t ever notice a lag of 47 milliseconds, let alone smaller lags, anywhere.

Thoughts?

 

[dennilfloss]

Originally posted by: xtknight


Note that I'm not sure if it has 1:1 pixel mapping yet, but I don't think the Dell has either until extremely recently.

The Dell Rev. A04 has it if I remember correctly. NCIX sells the BenQ with the new firmware revision that allows 1;1 mapping.

http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=19235&vpn=FP241W&manufacture=BENQ

Comment:

http://forum.ncix.com/forums/index.php?...5&msgcount=30&overclockid=0#msg1259141

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: CorCentral

Originally posted by: Trinitron
I have the Samsung 225BW and love it. There are better and worse displays out there than the 225. For the price though I am VERY happy with it.

Another vote for the 22" Samsung 225BW Got mine for $400.00 shipped from CC. A little higher than most places but if I needed to return it because of dead pixels, etc, I would'nt have to deal with shipping it back somewhere, I could just exchange locally

Best thing about the Samsung is it's 5ms. Games look great and no input lag/ghosting at all.

 

[dennilfloss]

Here's a nice quote about the BenQ:

Yesterday I received my FP241W from NCIX. I ordered it on Thu 1/18/07, NCIX shipped it from Richmond, BC, Canada, on Tue 1/23/07 (right after I contacted them about the delay*), and it took only about four days to reach me in Virginia (ground shipping - USPS on the US side of the border).

November 2006 manufacture date, with the updated firmware (loaded by NCIX). Aspect ratio mode works as expected. No dead pixels. The backlight brightness is uniform, and it can get very bright at the higher brightness setting. The FP241W is a beautiful monitor. I am using its DVI interface with my computer. So far, I have not noticed any ghosting when playing games and watching video. No sign of banding (per DisplayMate's gradient test). I'm amazed at how black the black is. Viewing angles are superb. I am satisfied with the construction of the monitor housing and stand.

If I look carefully and use a test pattern, I can detect the "slight loss of brightness at the perpendicular (and near-perpendicular) viewing angles" issue that is common to all PVA/MVA panels. One can use the test pattern at this URL:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1004&message=18204850

I saw the effect only on the 6% and 10% range, and I had to look for it in order to see it (and I could still see the boxes; they just varied in brightness a bit as I changed the viewing angle). The effect seems gradual as I move the test pattern (or my head), so I doubt my eyes will be bothered by it. I'm fine with this minor flaw in the technology.

The FP241W is significantly better than the Dell 2407WFP that I tried for a week back in December. The 2407WFP (A03 firmware) had poor colors, hints of less-than-8bit electronics (though their panel is 8bit), and a purple-ish background glow. HDTV video played on the 2407WFP was unimpressive. I had found a good deal on the 2407WFP, but it wasn't good enough to keep it. I sent the 2407WFP back. To me, the FP241W is worth its higher price.

I big thank you to everyone who posted their observations on this monitor, and its competition, on the forum. The advice was invaluable.

I am _very_ grateful to NCIX for taking the time and making the effort to apply the firmware update for their customers. I use the monitor with my computer and also as an HDTV, directly connected to an HDTV receiver (with 1080i over DVI output) from my cable company, so the aspect ratio fix was essential for me.

*I used NCIX's PayPal payment option at the time of the order (clicked their button), and I paid it in full, but the packing slip included with the monitor showed that I still owed about $5.88 more. My understanding is that that discrepency was the reason for the ship delay, since the people who handle the shipping thought that I had not paid in full. My account at the NCIX web site shows that I have paid in full. In any case, submitting a web query to NCIX was enough to get the ball rolling.

- David

Source: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1066372&page=116

 

[Starbuck1975]

After doing some more research last night, narrowed down my choices.

If I go with 20.1", the only monitor that really interests me is the NEC 20WMGX2.

However, as I said earlier, at that price point, it does put a 24" in play.

I found a few reputable gaming websites that rave about the Dell 2407 RO4, and the Gateway FPD2485W.

As my current CRT monitor is a Samsung, I do have a bit of brand loyalty given my positive experiences with their monitor products. But I can't find much info on the 244T in terms of gaming and quality as a monitor. Anyone have the 244T that can speak to its capabilities?

The BenQ is a question mark for me...I am not that familiar with their products.

The unfortunate thing is that of the four 24" monitors, I can only see two of them in person...the Gateway and Samsung. The two closest Dell Direct stores near me don't carry the 24", and I don't know of anyone that carries BenQ retail.

Today I go in search of the Samsung. I saw the Gateway yesterday, and was reasonably impressed.

EDIT

Found this review of the BenQ FP241W 24"
Trusted Reviews
Great thing about this review is that it compares the BenQ to the Samsung 244T & Dell 2407. That being said, assuming the review is accurate, it appears that the BenQ comes out as the best bang for buck option.

My summary of my options right now:

NEC 20WMGX2: An amazing 20.1" monitor at 24" prices.
Samsung 244T: Reputable company, high quality monitor, but most expensive option.
BenQ FP241W: Comperable to the Samsung 244T, but more affordable.
Dell 2407: Best warranty option, but have to play Dell roullette to get the most current revision for capabilities that should have been available at launch.
Gateway FPD2485W: Priced comperable to the Dell 2407, and cheaper then both the Samsung & BenQ.