This is the best site I know that reviews PSU's: Jonny Guru
The Seasonic S12II-500 seems to fit the bill of what you want though. (quiet, high quality, and 500W) You can get it here for only $86 too.
This is the best site I know that reviews PSU's: Jonny Guru
The Seasonic S12II-500 seems to fit the bill of what you want though. (quiet, high quality, and 500W) You can get it here for only $86 too.
You make very good points. If I spend less now, maybe upgrading in a year and a half won't be such a bad thing. And CPUs probably will accelerate more over the next 3 years than they did during the 3 years I owned this Athlon 64. But are you SURE I won't stand to gain from a quad core chip at all between now and late 2009ish? The only really taxing thing I do with my CPU is game, sometimes 720p HD video, but no encoding or anything like that.
Thank you, that is a great recommendation for the price. The EarthWatts looks good too. I was also looking at a PCP&C over at Newegg for $120, a bit extra money but it was 610 W which may be nice in the future, 5 year warranty as well. But it was single +12V rail, does that really matter? I read in Jonny Guru's FAQ that it does not, but I hear otherwise from so many people. I'm assuming Jonny is correct but I'd like to know why the difference in opinion exists.
I'll actually quote straight from the FAQ you referenced:
So there are advantages and disadvantages to using multiple rails. The biggest disadvantages are really for older PSU's, since they were made using a server spec that put most of the power to the CPU, and only a little power to the rest of the system - which isn't enough for powerful Video Cards. That is no longer true, so multiple rails isn't really a problem anymore, except in the above illustrated examples. (There are other issues, such as more failure points, because it is more complex.)
As a warning, I have never used the PSU I suggested, I only suggested it because it got good reviews, and Seasonic is known for high quality builds. I could not tell you whether it is better than the Earthwatts 500W PSU. I can tell you that the PC Power and Cooling PSU I am using is much better than either Antec PSU I used, but it cost more too. If you decide on the Silencer 610 you mentioned, I can't blame you. It is a very good PSU in its own right, and I would have gotten one myself if they were a little cheaper.
So there are advantages and disadvantages to using multiple rails. The biggest disadvantages are really for older PSU's, since they were made using a server spec that put most of the power to the CPU, and only a little power to the rest of the system - which isn't enough for powerful Video Cards. That is no longer true, so multiple rails isn't really a problem anymore, except in the above illustrated examples. (There are other issues, such as more failure points, because it is more complex.)
As a warning, I have never used the PSU I suggested, I only suggested it because it got good reviews, and Seasonic is known for high quality builds. I could not tell you whether it is better than the Earthwatts 500W PSU. I can tell you that the PC Power and Cooling PSU I am using is much better than either Antec PSU I used, but it cost more too. If you decide on the Silencer 610 you mentioned, I can't blame you. It is a very good PSU in its own right, and I would have gotten one myself if they were a little cheaper.
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
Originally posted by: aigomorla
at this point i have no idea whats correct and whats not.
why cuz real temp says 2 of my cores are eatting heat, meaning there lower then ambient. lol.
Core temp at least shows my cores above ambient but thats cuz of a +10 advantage.
Coretemp changes my VID when it feels like it, i have no idea why, im really linking it to the multi.
Realtemp everyone keeps saying is accurate, but why is it 10 off from coretemp?
Anyhow the safe overclocker say we go with the higher reading.
The Enthusiest overclocker says go with whomever says is more accurate.
Aigo says, i have no clue which is really correct so im going by my probes.
<which i know are correct cuz my coolant is anyhwere between 1-3C depending on load ABOVE my rad air intake like it should be>
Intel doesn't post tjunction on c2d's so realtemp AND coretemp are both guessing. when coretemp's author originally wrote the software for the c2d's (and as of jan 07 for that matter) he didn't even own an intel cpu. I don't know if he does now, and that obviously doesn't preclude him from being able to write software for it, but I frankly am more inclined to trust realtemp.
It doesn't really matter what tjunction is, however, because we should just be displaying delta to tjunction. A 70c temp on a Q6600 has a 25c delta to tjunction according to coretemp. That same 70c temp on a Q9450 shows a 35c delta to tjunction. Which one is a "better" temp in that scenario? Obviously the Q9450 temp is better because it is farther from tjunction.
aigo, you really need to read this.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...howthread.php?t=179044
- Sep 28, 2005
- 21,057
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LOL bryan. Yes i know ive been keeping up with it.
Here is my comment to the author:
NaeKuh
XSDC Middle Weight
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: in Cali, inside a shoebox
Posts: 2,502 The only thing that bugs me about this program is that i supposidely have 2 cores which are breaking the rules of thermodynamics.
There colder then ambient. :T
Other then that its a great program. Its fairly accurate, coretemp is only 10C higher in marking for everything including the TjMax.
Now he asked if i calibrated the sensors. Yes i did, i saw all the diode movement, yet it didnt fix my magic idle problem. Im staying with my sensors. I know how they act and behave from coolant properties. As long as my coolant never tops 30C my system will be cooler then air.
This problem we told him that we needed a greater offset but this is what he wrote:
unclewebb
Xtreme Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 276 Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZ
1. Editing INI file should be possible even when RT is running. As it is now, RT will nullify all changes on exit by rewriting INI. Any particular reason for this?
The reason behind this is because it made my life simple. I told you I was new to using INI files. In the next major release I'll make some changes so RealTemp is more logical and doesn't create an all new INI file on each exit.
Quote:
2. Calibration can be either +- 0, 1 or 2. This is not enough.
The factors I've chosen were based on what I've observed to date. I can certainly add a 3 to the list. I thought that if a user had to go beyond 2 then it was possible that RealTemp had guessed wrong at TjMax.
Sorry, there isnt anything wrong with my cpu. However if there is, i dont care, im not giving up this golden egg without a fight. I think i hold the highest clocked quad on this forum on 24/7 settings @ 4.25ghz.
However i dont underestimate Yoxxy, knowing him he probably has something classified in his right pocket. <grin>
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
yeah, I read that post, didn't know it was you! I just read this a few minutes ago over there from uncle webb:
I'm 100% confident that TjMax=95C is correct for my 45nm E8400 but I have not had my hands on a 45nm Quad for testing. This choice looks appropriate for core0 and core1 of your Quad but not so appropriate for core2 and core3. I'm still trying to sort this behaviour out on my Q6600 and what is the real cause of it. Can you PM me a RealTempLog.txt file for your Quad with the calibration factors all set to 0 and run it from idle to full load to idle using Prime small FFTs on each core? Do all 4 cores report more or less the same at full load?
this is of course calling my 95c theory into question because now realtemp AND coretemp creaters are in the dark! I'm going to get him some data on my quad either this weekend or next, maybe that will help us to sort out this mess.
I'm 100% confident that TjMax=95C is correct for my 45nm E8400 but I have not had my hands on a 45nm Quad for testing. This choice looks appropriate for core0 and core1 of your Quad but not so appropriate for core2 and core3. I'm still trying to sort this behaviour out on my Q6600 and what is the real cause of it. Can you PM me a RealTempLog.txt file for your Quad with the calibration factors all set to 0 and run it from idle to full load to idle using Prime small FFTs on each core? Do all 4 cores report more or less the same at full load?
this is of course calling my 95c theory into question because now realtemp AND coretemp creaters are in the dark! I'm going to get him some data on my quad either this weekend or next, maybe that will help us to sort out this mess.
- Sep 28, 2005
- 21,057
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which is why i say i go aigo way.
Monitor coolant temps make sure they dont get out of control!
And yeah i will probably mail him my log.
Also yes im known as Naekuh. Most of the time tho i am in the liquid cooling section unless something sparks an interest, or someone leads me there to look at something. :T
Just curious, what has made the recommended Gigabyte and Abit boards so popular? I would like to get a board from a brand I've already owned but every time I do a new build I end up switching brands, so far I've done MSI, then Asus, then Epox, now one of these two.
Is it okay to get very "value" RAM even with some modest OCing? What minimum timings/speed should I be shooting for?
Although I do agree with v8envy about not trying to upgrade TOO much for the future, I think I would still like quad core now, even if I won't keep it for 3 years, just because I feel like I could potentially make use of them now assuming Vista multi-threads decently, and for future Source-engine and other games in the coming 1-2 years. So the Q6600 is still the top pick due to price, unless I can find a 9450 somewhere for about $300ish.
Is it okay to get very "value" RAM even with some modest OCing? What minimum timings/speed should I be shooting for?
Although I do agree with v8envy about not trying to upgrade TOO much for the future, I think I would still like quad core now, even if I won't keep it for 3 years, just because I feel like I could potentially make use of them now assuming Vista multi-threads decently, and for future Source-engine and other games in the coming 1-2 years. So the Q6600 is still the top pick due to price, unless I can find a 9450 somewhere for about $300ish.
I say go ahead with a quad anyone saying in only a few years you wont be able to play the latest games is really overestimating it. I can run any of the new games pretty decently on my old ddr400 p4 3.2 6800gt machine. TF2, Company of heros... etc. Now I know its not crysis on max settings, but come'on i didnt expect that either though i could probably at least run the game just not with all the fancies turned on.
So really get a Q6600 or Q9450 neither will dissapoint.
So really get a Q6600 or Q9450 neither will dissapoint.
Yeah, perhaps a current quad would last the ~3 years I'm hoping for, and like I said I might even make use of 4 cores now. So due to price, the Q6600 is the current choice.
For memory, is DDR2-800 the best pick? Or should I go for 1066? I believe the "native" speed of the P35-DS3L is 1066, although I'm not sure if that matters at all.
For memory, is DDR2-800 the best pick? Or should I go for 1066? I believe the "native" speed of the P35-DS3L is 1066, although I'm not sure if that matters at all.
Winterpool
Senior member
- Mar 1, 2008
- 830
- 0
- 0
800 MHz DDR2 should be fine for overclocking the Q6600, as this quadcore's stock FSB is 266 MHz. The memory could run stock 400 MHz, and at 1:1 ratio, you'd be overclocking the Q6600 to 9*400 = 3.6 GHz, which is a very respectable overclock for this chip. And most qualite DDR2 800 will go above 400 MHz anyhow. So your memory most likey wouldn't be your limitation (cooling, voltage, etc, would be). The GA-P35-DS3L should also support FSB frequencies above 266: at least 333 to 400.
If you want a big upgrade, it will likely be Nehalem, which is potentially a very different chip to what we've seen from Intel so far (integrated memory controller and lots of bandwidth for a start). So it's very hard to say now what would be sufficient to 'futureproof' you against Nehalem. But I wouldn't wait either, as I don't expect a respectable Nehalem system will be very affordable during the first few months (or even year, especially if AMD keeps deteriorating); meanwhile, current tech is extremely affordable. In addition, the likely architectural changes to the entire platform have caused some to speculate that the enthusiast market may be negatively affected, at least pricewise. So I say, go on, get quadcore, and an overclocked Q6600 should compare respectably to almost any pre-Nehalem cpu for the next year or two.
If you want a big upgrade, it will likely be Nehalem, which is potentially a very different chip to what we've seen from Intel so far (integrated memory controller and lots of bandwidth for a start). So it's very hard to say now what would be sufficient to 'futureproof' you against Nehalem. But I wouldn't wait either, as I don't expect a respectable Nehalem system will be very affordable during the first few months (or even year, especially if AMD keeps deteriorating); meanwhile, current tech is extremely affordable. In addition, the likely architectural changes to the entire platform have caused some to speculate that the enthusiast market may be negatively affected, at least pricewise. So I say, go on, get quadcore, and an overclocked Q6600 should compare respectably to almost any pre-Nehalem cpu for the next year or two.
+1 Winterpool.
You actively don't want DDR2 1066 ram. Most of that is already overclocked and overvolted from the factory -- unless you need RAM that fast to take an E8400 to the limit try to find RAM specified to run at 1.8 volts @ 400 mhz. Your stock cooled chipset will thank you. 3.6 is not just respectable, it's a bit much to hope for really. You're shooting for 3.0-3.2 ghz, unless you're prepared to fork over serious money for a motherboard & cooling and budget enough to try several quads until one hits that speed, selling the rejects. Remember that a quad has significantly higher power draw requirements at load than a dual core, so not every value board will take a quad to the limit and stay there.
OP: look at game benchmarks. In almost every case an E8400 beats the snot out of every other CPU (other than the E8500) in every title. By a wide margin. It's a very tough call, and you really can't make a bad choice Q6600 vs E8400. A 3.6 ghz quad will probably murder a value board as quickly as a 4 ghz dualie, but you never know.
A bit of translation: PC5300 is 333 (667) mhz, or enough to take a q6600 to 3 ghz, or feed an E8400 at spec. PC6400 aka 400 mhz (800 double clocked) is enough to take a q6600 or E8400 to 3.6 ghz at spec. PC 8500 aka DDR2 1066 aka 533 mhz ram means you could OC an E8400 or Q6600 to nearly 4.8 ghz without RAM being the limiting factor. Can you say 'overkill'? There are very few motherboards out right now which will let you crank the FSB to 500 mhz and not melt into a pile of slag, never mind 533. And they aren't $60 after rebate.
You actively don't want DDR2 1066 ram. Most of that is already overclocked and overvolted from the factory -- unless you need RAM that fast to take an E8400 to the limit try to find RAM specified to run at 1.8 volts @ 400 mhz. Your stock cooled chipset will thank you. 3.6 is not just respectable, it's a bit much to hope for really. You're shooting for 3.0-3.2 ghz, unless you're prepared to fork over serious money for a motherboard & cooling and budget enough to try several quads until one hits that speed, selling the rejects. Remember that a quad has significantly higher power draw requirements at load than a dual core, so not every value board will take a quad to the limit and stay there.
OP: look at game benchmarks. In almost every case an E8400 beats the snot out of every other CPU (other than the E8500) in every title. By a wide margin. It's a very tough call, and you really can't make a bad choice Q6600 vs E8400. A 3.6 ghz quad will probably murder a value board as quickly as a 4 ghz dualie, but you never know.
A bit of translation: PC5300 is 333 (667) mhz, or enough to take a q6600 to 3 ghz, or feed an E8400 at spec. PC6400 aka 400 mhz (800 double clocked) is enough to take a q6600 or E8400 to 3.6 ghz at spec. PC 8500 aka DDR2 1066 aka 533 mhz ram means you could OC an E8400 or Q6600 to nearly 4.8 ghz without RAM being the limiting factor. Can you say 'overkill'? There are very few motherboards out right now which will let you crank the FSB to 500 mhz and not melt into a pile of slag, never mind 533. And they aren't $60 after rebate.
Definately get a new PSU. I recently got the PC P&C 750watt crosfire edition, and it so stable and efficient and only draws the power you need.
I'm not good at picking out ram, but I prefer G-skill.
I don't know about the Q6600(Hear good things). Don't get the Q9300. Definately get the Q9450 if u got the $$$.
With a Q9450 and a 8800 GTS 512, you will not be disappointed.(EVGA set-up or BFG)
I had a e6600(oc'd to 3.0Ghz), msi 650i, and 8800gts 512. It ran amazingly in crysis, I only had very minor problems in the last half of the Aircraft Carrier(Very last) section of the game. Upgraded to e8400(not OC'd) and had no problems what-so-ever.
This was all at 1440x900 with all settings on high.
I'm not good at picking out ram, but I prefer G-skill.
I don't know about the Q6600(Hear good things). Don't get the Q9300. Definately get the Q9450 if u got the $$$.
With a Q9450 and a 8800 GTS 512, you will not be disappointed.(EVGA set-up or BFG)
I had a e6600(oc'd to 3.0Ghz), msi 650i, and 8800gts 512. It ran amazingly in crysis, I only had very minor problems in the last half of the Aircraft Carrier(Very last) section of the game. Upgraded to e8400(not OC'd) and had no problems what-so-ever.
This was all at 1440x900 with all settings on high.
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
it's closer to $100 more. you can get the Q9450 for $299 periodically at microcenter and the Q6600 for $199 at several places when they have a sale. The lower temps are a bonus, as is the $1-$2 savings per month for 36 mos. Now all of a sudden we're talking about $50 more for the Q9450. Also, with the better thermals you will probably have much better luck getting the system to run quietly. If you really keep it for 3 years that sse4 will start to come in handy. Anyway, I'm not saying that you should absolutely stay away from the Q9450, but I do think that it makes sense to at least consider it.
I still haven't cranked up my ip35-e/Q9450 setup yet. I planned to do it yesterday, but I got back too late from my bike ride. Hopefully I'll be able to sneak back home one night this week and get it done, otherwise it'll have to wait until sunday.
edit: just read through the rest of the posts. here are some thoughts:
the sweet spot for ddr2 ram right now is ddr2 800 (pc6400) with 4-4-4-12 timings. This ram will very consistently run at 450-500 fsb if you relax the timings to 5-5-5-15, and it is less than $30AR for name brand sticks (corsair, crucial, etc).
@aigo, I wrote my reply as you were writing yours and just saw your new response. I think that we're on the same page about this. I just pm'd mark about it, I think that the only good way to use either realtemp OR coretemp is to have them display distance to tjunction. When you look at it that way, it doesn't really matter if tjunction is 95c and your temp is 60c or if tjunctino is 105c and you're at 70c. Either way, you're still 35c from tjunction. how high can somebody take a Q6600 on air and still keep it 35c below tjunction on all 4 cores? I've had almost no time to play with my rig, I haven't even tried to reinstall the X3350, lap the tuniq, try to find out why core 1 is 6-7c hotter than the other 3, etc, and I VERY rarely get closer than 35c from tjunction on core 1 while running at 3.6.
Should it happen that you choose 45nm quads, just keep in mind that some motherboards (or chipsets)... might work better than others. So far, I can only confirm that ASUS P5E-VM HDMI and ASUS Striker II Extreme heart the chip... whereas others (even Maximus Formula) don't heart the chip for whatever reason.
So far, I can only confirm that ASUS P5E-VM HDMI and ASUS Striker II Extreme heart the chip... whereas others (even Maximus Formula) don't heart the chip for whatever reason.Thanks for the great info guys! I really appreciate all this help and am glad I can come here for it. I used to be in the know about hardware but then I built an A64 rig for college, went to college, got busy, and kind of fell out of the loop. I've kept up enough to know what my options are, but have no idea about the details and memory specs and all that. You guys are helping a lot.
You've convinced me that DDR2-800 is the way to go. As for brand, I like Corsair, but they don't seem to be the best price right now. I'm not sure what brands in the cheaper range I can trust. Not familiar with Trascend, pqi, A-Data. Am familiar with Mushkin, G-skill, Corsair, Crucial, etc. Should I stick with a brand from that second set? I'll be ordering by Friday.
I agree Nehalem platforms will probably be very expensive well into 2009 with the way AMD's been doing, so I have no reservations about upgrading now. I am VERY ready to.
I haven't made any concrete decisions about overclocking yet. My only OC experience was with an Athlon XP 2100+ T-bred B and an Asus A7N8X-X almost four years ago. It went okay and gave me good performance for cheap, but I was very annoyed by the testing process and the increased temperatures and fan speeds. What kind of OC could I get VERY easily with the Q6600 (as in, reasonable temps and stock coolers at less than 3000 RPM)? It is interesting to note that current games fare better on dual core, but if I keep this CPU for at least 2 years, I see the extra cores being advantageous sometime within that second year, maybe even the first. It's hard to determine. A 45 nm quad core at $300 is appealing, but I'm not likely to see that price by Friday, plus as runawayprisoner pointed out, that would ruin my surefire motherboard choice (P35-DS3L).
I do intend on getting a new PSU, probably the PCP&C 610 W.
You've convinced me that DDR2-800 is the way to go. As for brand, I like Corsair, but they don't seem to be the best price right now. I'm not sure what brands in the cheaper range I can trust. Not familiar with Trascend, pqi, A-Data. Am familiar with Mushkin, G-skill, Corsair, Crucial, etc. Should I stick with a brand from that second set? I'll be ordering by Friday.
I agree Nehalem platforms will probably be very expensive well into 2009 with the way AMD's been doing, so I have no reservations about upgrading now. I am VERY ready to.
I haven't made any concrete decisions about overclocking yet. My only OC experience was with an Athlon XP 2100+ T-bred B and an Asus A7N8X-X almost four years ago. It went okay and gave me good performance for cheap, but I was very annoyed by the testing process and the increased temperatures and fan speeds. What kind of OC could I get VERY easily with the Q6600 (as in, reasonable temps and stock coolers at less than 3000 RPM)? It is interesting to note that current games fare better on dual core, but if I keep this CPU for at least 2 years, I see the extra cores being advantageous sometime within that second year, maybe even the first. It's hard to determine. A 45 nm quad core at $300 is appealing, but I'm not likely to see that price by Friday, plus as runawayprisoner pointed out, that would ruin my surefire motherboard choice (P35-DS3L).
I do intend on getting a new PSU, probably the PCP&C 610 W.
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
yes, that's legit as I bought my 9450 from them for 299.99. however beware as in some states (like tx :frown you have to pay sales tax.
you have to pay sales tax.CA also has to pay sales tax. But hey... I got the chip to over 4GHz... can't complain... really.
But hey... I got the chip to over 4GHz... can't complain... really.Hmm? http://microcenter.com/single_...tml?product_id=0286543
Also, I didn't realize the E8400 was 45 nm (http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/...7603&prodlist=celebros, good price). Would that work well 100% certain in the P35-DS3L?
Just check out http://www.microcenter.com Top of the page. Add it to your cart and a $50 off coupon should be applied automatically bringing the price down to from $349.99 to $299.99.
Oh wow, funny I didn't look at the big ad on the main page.
That really changes things then, I am very tempted. In fact, if I can be certain it'll work in the DS3L I think I'm ready to purchase tonight. I want quad core, and for $300 I think the 45 nm benefits are worth it (slight performance increase, temps, and power).Can someone confirm motherboard compatibility and push me over the edge to purchase tonight?
bryanW1995
Lifer
- May 22, 2007
- 11,144
- 32
- 91
well, this isn't a surefire thing, but foxery has a Q9300 running in his ip35-e right out of the box. if abit has better driver support than gigabyte...
btw, post this question in the motherboard section.
btw, post this question in the motherboard section.
The big deal on the abit IP35-E is that it's only $60 AMIR. The board has all the basic things a nice mid-range system needs and nothing else. Very stable and OC's nicely. I love mine.
And I also recently upgraded to a Seasonic M12II 500 and it is nice and quiet.
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