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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: Farang
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...ed=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

What I found most interesting about this is its exploring the debate within the Republican party as to how much to include social conservatism. On the one hand you can use that to appeal to some Latinos, on the other you alienate a lot of independents. I tend to think the social conservatives need to be dropped if Republicans are to go anywhere, but they are the part of the party I most disagree with so that could just be bias.

The GOP is a party really about the wealthy, with a 'frontend' marketing side to recruit voters based on 'traditional values' and 'fiscal conservatism', that has allied with 'social conservatives' to the extent needed for them to form a sort of 'coalition government', to get the social conservatives' vote, with an ongoing struggle over how much to really make the social conservative's agenda the party agenda, from the party's preference for 'lip service' to the dominant agenda desired by the social conservative leaders.

Not surprisingly, the dicussion about this is hardly honest by anyone, because that's not in the interests of pretty much anyone involved.

If the GOP could win without them, they'd get kicked to the curb. They can't, and so they are constantly hobbling together a 'unity' each election.

The social conservatives dohave enough votes and organization to get 'some' real commitment though, from 'one of their own evangelicals', Bush, as president, speaking to them with 'code phrases' from the evangelical lexicon, to the Republicans bending over backwards to take advantage of the Terry Schiavo tragedy, to a social conservative litmus test for the Supreme Court appointees.

But where else are the scial conservatives going to go? My hope, to a third party and split the vote, but that seems unlikely.
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
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I disagree. I think the fiscal conservative pragmatism approach, "tripartisan" and Clintonian, could probably garner a fair deal of support if they threw token issues at social conservatives to keep them on board. The problem is surviving the primary contest where you need more than token issues to get those social conservatives with you, like we saw in '08 the primary killed McCain's chances with independents. The change, then, would probably have to come from the legislature with the new members who would come on board during any sort of resurgence.

edit: I do agree that the interests don't match the rhetoric, but I see the fiscal convervatives as more self-sustaining than the socials, and thus more able to be more dominating in the party

in fact after re-reading what you said I think we may agree more than we disagree. I guess I just don't believe in the hopelessness of fiscal conservatives standing alone, while taking one issue with them (let's say pro-life)
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
The problem with Newt is that he has another brainfart idea a day, nothing that can be woven into a coherent public policy, and therein lies why Newt is worthless.

And like the weather, if you do not like it, wait a little while, and it will change and the Newt line will be totally different.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Newt's Contract with America is in default, so let me guess, he's gonna write another one and see if there are any suckers?

LOLSAME :D
 

Farang

Lifer
Jul 7, 2003
10,913
3
0
Originally posted by: senseamp
Newt's Contract with America is in default, so let me guess, he's gonna write another one and see if there are any suckers?

how about you read the article I linked to or fuck off
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: senseamp
Newt's Contract with America is in default, so let me guess, he's gonna write another one and see if there are any suckers?

how about you read the article I linked to or fuck off

I skipped over it, but frankly it's too long of an article to bother reading about a wanna be leader/guru/whatever of an irrelevant minority party.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
The problem with Newt is that he has another brainfart idea a day, nothing that can be woven into a coherent public policy, and therein lies why Newt is worthless.

And like the weather, if you do not like it, wait a little while, and it will change and the Newt line will be totally different.

It is almost like looking at our current potus and comparing his campaign promises to his current actions, huh? It works for all politicians that have the gift.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
What the hell are you talking about? Obama is doing exactly what one would expect a Democrat president to do in response to this crisis. Hell, even Bush would be doing it if he was still around. McCain, maybe not, grandpa's old, he doesn't care.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: senseamp
What the hell are you talking about? Obama is doing exactly what one would expect a Democrat president to do in response to this crisis. Hell, even Bush would be doing it if he was still around. McCain, maybe not, grandpa's old, he doesn't care.


Spending = caring

Yeah he is going through the budget line by line and cutting spending and he is getting rid of earmarks, it's called CHANGE.
 

Budmantom

Lifer
Aug 17, 2002
13,103
1
81
Originally posted by: Farang
Originally posted by: senseamp
Newt's Contract with America is in default, so let me guess, he's gonna write another one and see if there are any suckers?

how about you read the article I linked to or fuck off


You have anger issues, it's time to kick the dog again.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
The GOP is a party really about the wealthy.
What a load of crap.

The richest people in the country are all Democrats.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Ted Turner, George Soros etc etc

The Republicans are the party of the moderately wealthy and those who are trying to become wealthy.

While the Democrats are the party of the mega-rich.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
The GOP is a party really about the wealthy.
What a load of crap.

You're right, about your own comments. You're wrong on the facts. I can't quickly find a nice link for you, so we'll call it a tie if you can't find a good link for now either.

The richest people in the country are all Democrats.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Ted Turner, George Soros etc etc

African-Americans are all Republicans. Alan Keyes, Michael Steele, Bobby Jindel, Clarence Thomas, etc etc.

You're so damned dishonest in your arguments.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Sorry but I can read and I'm not locking it. One key fault in all partisans is their belief in their inherent moral superiority and it's always their Achilles heel. The article is a very good one and I think touches on a number of good points. In a general sense it gives a good portrail of how politicians think, and that is how to obtain power, consolidate it, and keep it. When all is said and done that is THE overriding concern which is true for both Newt and Pelosi. Party before all. Next what I think is a good observation Newt is a smart guy. He has ideas, many of which are quite interesting. I note the automatic disdain for social conservatism. Because this forum as a whole doesn't like them they must be inconsequential. They are certainly not. Note that 88% of the public wish to retain "in God we trust". Despite protestations to the contrary, most people have some very socially conservative ideals. Newt realizes the value of that. While the liberals demean them, Newt understands them better. Remember that Obamas strength is in his broad appeal, not looking down his nose at his opposition which is a shared trait of both parties more extreme followers. Newt understands that driving a wedge between factions within his party by driving away those who represent a large number of Americans is counterproductive. He by no means wants to do what Teddy Roosevelt did and cripple the party for decades. Please continue to think of him as witless because those of us who like to see the foolish get upended will enjoy it. Newt is almost a genius. He knows a great deal and constantly produces new ideas. For the liberal Democrats he has the potential to be your undoing because in their hubris they marginalize him. Why? Because he isn't a likable person. He isn't an Obama or a Clinton. He has no cult of personality. That means he's unlikely to be in the public eye and that is precisely why he is so dangerous. He's an idea man who has the ear of his party and his thoughts are respected. His anonymity may make him one of the most powerful men in the nation simply because his ideas won't be directly linked to him. So poo poo him and call him stupid or whatever and I'll watch him foil you without you ever understanding what's happening.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Short of religious dogma, nothing is more authoritarian than partisanship. Ideas are less flexible than leaders, and even less objective to reality.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
He has no cult of personality. That means he's unlikely to be in the public eye and that is precisely why he is so dangerous. He's an idea man who has the ear of his party and his thoughts are respected. His anonymity may make him one of the most powerful men in the nation simply because his ideas won't be directly linked to him. So poo poo him and call him stupid or whatever and I'll watch him foil you without you ever understanding what's happening.

I think you just disproved your own claim.

For what it's worth, Newt has his talents you mention - and his major flaws you don't.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Newts appeal is strictly along party lines. Rush loved him. The reps elevated him as well but that was because he was able to make progress against the Dems. He does have flaws and when in office he showed them. That's sort of the point though. By remaining in the shadows he avoids them being seen and his republican supporters couldn't care less about them.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Next is something like a chess player with a grand game plan, even before any moves are made. Then after some number of moves are made, Next comes up with a totally different game plan, which also has to be revised.

Now I like chess probably more than the next fellow, I flatter myself in thinking I am fairly good at chess, and I also face the facts, chess is simply based on doing the meanest nastiest thing possible to your opponent while preventing your opponent from being able to do the same to you. But for me, chess is a game I like to play with friends, its a game and nothing more.

In short, chess is a game that organizes thinking, planning, cause and effect, but chess is still a a very poor model for living your life. In the real world, those R and D's are human beings, and those same human beings you totally and viciously bash in the real world, are the same people you must get to help you run a government.

Newt has always missed that distinction, and quite frankly, he has no ideas that work as a coherent whole. While Obama is about building a consensus, Next is all about divisive confrontation and take no prisoners.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Farang
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...ed=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

What I found most interesting about this is its exploring the debate within the Republican party as to how much to include social conservatism. On the one hand you can use that to appeal to some Latinos, on the other you alienate a lot of independents. I tend to think the social conservatives need to be dropped if Republicans are to go anywhere, but they are the part of the party I most disagree with so that could just be bias.

The GOP is a party really about the wealthy,

You know Craig, you have got to be one of the top 3 partisan hacks on this board. At least your closed mind is transparent for all to see. If you dont see the wealth of the left, theres no hope for you at all.

edit: I suggest you ponder this.

"Party of the Rich"
Limousine liberals are upgrading to Lear jets.

By Peter Schweizer

The GOP is the party of the rich, or so goes the conventional wisdom since the days of FDR.
Many Republicans, said Democratic-party chairman Howard Dean recently, ?have never made an honest living in their lives.? Democratic activists have even set up a satirical website. And a liberal tax-exempt 527 group with the same name gets checks from anti-Bush billionaires such as Herb Sandler of Golden West Financial.

The GOP has historically been the party of both Main Street and Wall Street. But over the past decade, the plutocrats have increasingly become Democrats. Billionaires for Bush are increasingly outnumbered by billionaires who hate Bush. And Republicans in limousines are being outpaced by Democrats in Lear Jets.

With soft-money contributions banned, the super rich can now hope to sway elections with large checks to 527 advocacy groups such as MoveOn.org, Americans Coming Together, and the Media Fund, and by bundling contributions to candidates. Over the last four elections, the Democrats have dominated on both accounts. Consider these numbers, from the nonpartisan, non-profit Center for Responsive Politics (CRP):

Thus far in 2006, 17 of the top 25 contributors to 527 advocacy groups are funding liberal/Democratic causes, including liberal billionaires George Soros, and Peter Lewis.

In 2004, Democrats made up 15 of the 25 individuals who gave more than $2 million to 527 groups. Of the Senate and House candidates who received ?bundled? contributions that year, 9 out of the top 10 in the Senate and 8 out of 10 in the House were Democrats.

In 2002, those who gave a million dollars or more gave $36 million to the Democrats and only $3 million to Republicans, a 12:1 ratio. Those who gave $10,000 or more gave $140 million to the Democrats and just $111 million to Republicans. Of the top 10 individual contributors to candidates that year, only one gave to Republicans.

In 2000, Bush?s ?Pioneers? received considerable press for their efforts to raise $100,000 each for the campaign. But the really big donors that year were Democrats. According to the lefty Mother Jones magazine, 18 of the top 25 individual donors to political campaigns were Democrats. In recent years, the Left has been obsessed with the role that the oil and natural-gas industry plays in funding the Republican candidates. Republicans are ?in oil companies? pockets,? says the DNC in one press release. In 2004, according to the CRP, the oil and gas industry pumped $25 million into campaigns, 80 percent of it to the GOP.

But that pales in comparison to industries and interests that fund the Democratic party. That same year lawyers gave $182 million (75 percent to Democrats) and Hollywood donated $32 million (70 percent to Democrats).

Despite all of the rhetoric about rich Republicans, the GOP today is largely a party funded by middle-class voters. The average contribution to the GOP hovers around $50, almost identical with the much ballyhooed Internet ?grassroots? presidential campaign of Howard Dean in 2004. The Democrats for some reason won?t release comparable figures.

But the super-rich are not just giving to Democrats, they are increasingly running for office. In the Senate, often called a millionaires club, those with the really big money are Democrats. Of the five U.S. senators worth more than $25 million (John Kerry, Herb, Kohl, John Rockefeller, Dianne Feinstein, and Lincoln Chafee) according to Roll Call, only Chafee is a Republican.

Ned Lamont, currently running for the Senate in Connecticut, is only the latest in a long line of Democrats who have self-financed their campaigns. Thus far he has poured $4 million of his $100 million fortune into the race.

In 2000, Democrat John Corzine poured $60 million of his own money to win a Senate seat in New Jersey, Mark Dayton spent $12 million to win in Minnesota, Maria Cantwell $10 million Washington, and Herb Kohl $5 million to retain his seat in Wisconsin. In contrast, those Republicans who self-financed, according to Steen, did so in much smaller amounts.

Wealthy Republicans self-finance, too, but not in such large numbers. As National Journal columnist Jonathan Rauch has pointed out (using data provided by Boston College professor Jennifer Steen), between 1990 and 2000 self-financing candidates who spent more than $4 million of their own money were Democrats by a 2:1 margin. According to Steen, from 2000 to 2004 the Democrats? margin rose to 3:1.

As U.S. News & World Report political reporter Michael Barone points out, John Kerry won only one county in the state of Idaho, but it was the county that included the super-rich enclave of Sun Valley. And he carried only one county in Wyoming, the one which included the super-rich community of Jackson Hole. Barone calls this part of the ?trust-funder Left.?

So why are we seeing the emergence of liberal millionaires and billionaires?

Part of the answer may lie in the way much of this wealth was accumulated. Some of these individuals (Kerry, Dayton, Rockefeller, etc.) inherited their wealth and are thus less familiar with the rigors of the marketplace. Sure they have stock investments, but they haven?t spent time building a business or even holding down a demanding job in corporate America. Others, particularly in the high-tech sector and Hollywood, amassed their wealth quickly and faced fewer challenges in dealing with invasive government and regulations. They see wealth as something that happens quickly, not something that is build up over time. The Silicon Valley 30-year-old worth $200 million on a stock IPO after six years in the business is likely to have a different view of wealth accumulation than the industrialist who amassed a similar fortune over the course of a lifetime. A life of wealth seems more like a lottery, and less like the end result of hard work.

Ironically, Democrats, who talk about income inequality and plutocracy, are now the party of the super rich. The super rich have different priorities and concerns than other Americans. Taxes don?t bite as hard because they can hire accounts and lawyers to avoid or minimize them. They tend to be less religious and therefore less concerned with issues of faith. And they can embrace causes that will impact society and not really affect them. For example, several liberal billionaires have embraced the cause of drug legalization, which would probably cause enormous problems in middle America but would have less affect inside large fence-lined compounds. In short, a political party dominated by the super rich is going to have some issues knowing what concerns ordinary Americans.
 

microbial

Senior member
Oct 10, 2008
350
0
0
Originally posted by: Farang
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...ed=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

Click the back button on your browser.

Better yet, don't click on the back button. Just keep reading. Click on the Science tab, good stuff in there.

Newt is what I call a half-hearted ideologue. People are no longer interested in the tired Bobby Jindal-esque "smaller government, more tax breaks for industry" political ideology. They want pragmatism and honesty and conscience.

They know Newt's shtick all too well, and they know it's just more of the same, and they know Newt does not meet any of the above qualifications.

 

FuzzyBee

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2000
5,172
1
81
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Farang
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...ed=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

What I found most interesting about this is its exploring the debate within the Republican party as to how much to include social conservatism. On the one hand you can use that to appeal to some Latinos, on the other you alienate a lot of independents. I tend to think the social conservatives need to be dropped if Republicans are to go anywhere, but they are the part of the party I most disagree with so that could just be bias.

The GOP is a party really about the wealthy,

You know Craig, you have got to be one of the top 3 partisan hacks on this board. At least your closed mind is transparent for all to see. If you dont see the wealth of the left, theres no hope for you at all.

edit: I suggest you ponder this.

"Party of the Rich"
Limousine liberals are upgrading to Lear jets.

By Peter Schweizer

The GOP is the party of the rich, or so goes the conventional wisdom since the days of FDR.
Many Republicans, said Democratic-party chairman Howard Dean recently, ?have never made an honest living in their lives.? Democratic activists have even set up a satirical website. And a liberal tax-exempt 527 group with the same name gets checks from anti-Bush billionaires such as Herb Sandler of Golden West Financial.

The GOP has historically been the party of both Main Street and Wall Street. But over the past decade, the plutocrats have increasingly become Democrats. Billionaires for Bush are increasingly outnumbered by billionaires who hate Bush. And Republicans in limousines are being outpaced by Democrats in Lear Jets.

<snip>


Yeah, but that's not *every* Democrat! </Craig234>
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: FuzzyBee
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: Farang
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03...ed=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

What I found most interesting about this is its exploring the debate within the Republican party as to how much to include social conservatism. On the one hand you can use that to appeal to some Latinos, on the other you alienate a lot of independents. I tend to think the social conservatives need to be dropped if Republicans are to go anywhere, but they are the part of the party I most disagree with so that could just be bias.

The GOP is a party really about the wealthy,

You know Craig, you have got to be one of the top 3 partisan hacks on this board. At least your closed mind is transparent for all to see. If you dont see the wealth of the left, theres no hope for you at all.

edit: I suggest you ponder this.

"Party of the Rich"
Limousine liberals are upgrading to Lear jets.

By Peter Schweizer

The GOP is the party of the rich, or so goes the conventional wisdom since the days of FDR.
Many Republicans, said Democratic-party chairman Howard Dean recently, ?have never made an honest living in their lives.? Democratic activists have even set up a satirical website. And a liberal tax-exempt 527 group with the same name gets checks from anti-Bush billionaires such as Herb Sandler of Golden West Financial.

The GOP has historically been the party of both Main Street and Wall Street. But over the past decade, the plutocrats have increasingly become Democrats. Billionaires for Bush are increasingly outnumbered by billionaires who hate Bush. And Republicans in limousines are being outpaced by Democrats in Lear Jets.

<snip>


Yeah, but that's not *every* Democrat! </Craig234>

Ah yeah I forgot EVERY Republican is rich. My bad.