Read this "School Prayer"...

[Opinionated]

I am not the least bit deluded UG, and I didn't miss your point.

I simply disagree with you. This country is NOT run by Christians, and our society is NOT permeated with Christianity. There are MANY who claim to be Christians who are not.... or at least don't act as such. The "trappings" of Christianity may be visible in this society, but this society hardly functions on Christian principles, I assure you.

But once again, I must say.... I did NOT start this thread as a religious discussion/debate.

My purpose was to point out the less than equitable right to freedom of speech available to our children in public schools when the topic of their speech gets near anything Judeo-Christian. I was simply trying to point out the double-standard.....

...and that it's hard to miss the increasing decadence in our school systems, and that the more completely we have barred morals, ethics, and values from our schools over the last 3 decades, the worse it has gotten.

Our country is currently chugging along on pure narcissism, personal gratification, and an ever increasing thirst for power and money. And I can assure you, none of the aforementioned are Christiann priciples.

Opinionated

 

[Pretender]

You can mention god, the bible, whatever, in class, talk about what happened historically, differences in beliefs and how they impacted history, etc. Discussions on non-historical biblical (or other religious) topics aren't allowed.

 

[Regine]

<< I think that the banning of any mention of God is stupid... >>


Mentioning God isn't banned - it's prayer in school, organized prayer in the classroom.
In my school we had a bible study before classes, but it was organized by students and totally voluntary. We even had a prayer during one of our graduation speeches.

I don't really believe in God anymore, but that is not the reason why I am against prayer at school. I have always been against prayers in the classroom initiated by teachers. Heck, when I attended a Catholic school in Germany we never even had prayers in school, not even in our religious studies classes.
Separation of church and state does not mean that you cannot even mention God.

 

[UG]

My sense, Opinionated, is that misery loves company, and that Christianity is perturbed that Atheists are not miserable, too.

 

[UG]

So, Opinionated;

Have you found me the name of an atheist, U.S. elected offical?

Certainly, in this anti-Christian, secular Humanist society there has to be thousands of 'em?

The Evil, Godless Horde is a blight on Society, no?

 

[Regine]

LOL, UG

 

[Opinionated]

Pretender,



<< You can mention god, the bible, whatever, in class, talk about what happened historically, differences in beliefs and how they impacted history, etc. >>



Perhaps you have seen places where this is allowed. I however have personally witnessed a student that was given a failing grade on an English paper simply because the topic was &quot;Basic Tenets of Christianity&quot;. The student was told that the topic was unacceptable, and that she would NOT be allowed to submit the paper for credit. The student stood her ground, and was given a failing grade for the assignment.



<< Discussions on non-historical biblical (or other religious) topics aren't allowed. >>



Not so, at least in my experience. While it is true that an open discussion of Christianity at the lunch table will buy you a trip to the &quot;office&quot; and probably a suspension, both I and my children have witnessed numerous discussions of other religions and belief systems in the lunch room and elswhere on campus to include the classroom: Islam, Wicca, Buddhism, etc... These children were not only not sanctioned, one of the children (presenting a presentation on Wicca in an Austin, Texas classroom), was given an A+ for here efforts at &quot;enlightening the other students&quot;. <--- direct quote

THIS IS a double standard...

Opinionated

 

[UG]

<...Our country is currently chugging along on pure narcissism, personal gratification, and an ever increasing thirst for power and money. And I can assure you, none of the aforementioned are Christiann priciples...>

Oh, and how are you not so sure?

You imagine it to be invisible?

Oh, yeah. The invisible god exists, but the societally-invisible Christian principles do not.

Which is it: invisible exists, or it does not?

 

[Napalm381]

I was cranky in my original post because we have been over this sh!t a hundred times here, without any progress made by either side. There's no reason to &quot;kick a dead horse&quot;. I made the aforementioned assumptions because in my experience, that is what most people who post these types of threads are like.


<< I think calm, rational discourse is a better way to address problems and disagreements. >>

Yeah, so do I, except that I have found rational discourse regarding god/religion/etc is usually extremely difficult for both sides. You may be an exception; if so, that's great. Unfortunately most of your christian buddies aren't.

As for complaining that children cannot write essays or give reports about christianity, while they can regarding other religions...I don't have a problem with someone talking about christianity, or any other religion, from a completely objective standpoint. When was the last time you heard a christian discuss their religion objectively? I can't remember a time.

My aggravation about these, and other points mentioned, stems mostly from experience. If you wanna go to church and talk about god, fine. But when you start trying to talk me into your web of bullsh!t, I get angry very, very fast. I've had christian propaganda spreaders knock on my door here at school and offer me tapes and pamphlets about jesus. I've endured newspaper inserts, TV and radio commercials, and table tents at the dorm cafeteria all &quot;spreading the word&quot;. I can't remember Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, Atheists, Satanists, or any other religion being so aggressive in their &quot;recruitment&quot;. Now do you understand my aggravation a little more?

 

[Opinionated]

I cannot be provoked. Sorry. Not even by your attempts at attributing things to me that I have never said or even alluded to. You refuse to acknowledge that I NEVER intended this thread to be a discussion of religion, atheism, or any such thing. I came here to discuss the state of affairs in our public schools. Specifically, to discuss the double standard in the freedom of speech as it is applied in the public schools (and other venues). AND that the younger generations have serious problems with respect to personal responsibility, character, and a host of other things.

I simply used that &quot;prayer&quot; as an example that a child is able to spot the obvious incongruities in our policy: Ban religious speech in a public institution, but support (and in some cases encourage) speech and conduct which runs counter to long-term societal success and health. Can you simply not see that it is a double standard?

I never said, and do not believe that our schools (nor those on staff at the schools) should &quot;endorse&quot; ANY religion. Never said it guys, don't believe in it.

I also NEVER even said the word &quot;atheist&quot; or implied it's meaning until just this moment.
I have been TRYING to confine this discussion to Constitutional law, but I SEEM to have been singularly unsuccessful getting anyone else to seriously discuss it from that standpoint.

Finally, UG.... I have no earthly idea whether there any awowed athiests holding public office. Frankly, I don't care. if you care so much about it, I suggest you put your hat in the ring and go for it.

No man can really tell what is in another man's heart. One can make an educated guess by listening to his speech, observing his conduct, etc. But in the end, you never really know, and it's not man's place to make that judgement anyway.

I have seen men (many of them politicians) who claim to be Christian, but by word and deed they portray themselves as anything but. I have also observed men that have never revealed to me their beliefs, but by their actions I believe I know what's in their heart. And finally, I have rarely inquired of people as to their faith, and by they response and action, I am as sure as can be.

UG, and others.... I have a hard enough time keeping up the &quot;house-keeping&quot; in my own heart, much less trying to &quot;police&quot; what's in other folks hearts and minds. I neither want to tell you what or how to believe. I am simply trying to present my ideas as rationally and calmly as I can... Sometimes I succedd, sometimes I fail. After all, I am...

Opinionated

 

[Regine]

Napalm381 is right, every other day a different Christian club or organization is trying to &quot;reach us&quot; through table tents. I don't want to know how many different Christian organizations there are on campus alone. And every single one feels like they have to be in our face daily and try to convert us and &quot;make us see the right way&quot;. No other religious affiliations here are as aggressive as those who simply cannot accept that there are people in the world who don't feel the need to believe in the God.
There are so many clubs funded by the University, but when a club that is not very &quot;christian-oriented&quot; or very mainstream America, it is the Christians who will raise hell about it.
Wake up and smell the coffee - there are other religions, cultures and opinions. If we don't want the Christian god, then leave us alone. It's not use trying to convert people because all you will get out of it is arguments like these, where both parties can argue until they get blue in the face, and yet it will have no use, because you can't persuade the other person.

 

[Napalm381]

<< I cannot be provoked. Sorry. Not even by your attempts at attributing things to me that I have never said or even alluded to. You refuse to acknowledge that I NEVER intended this thread to be a discussion of religion, atheism, or any such thing. >>



I never intended to provoke you personally. I was merely expressing my displeasure with the general zealotry of christians. I am not &quot;attributing&quot; things to you. All I said was that my experience with christians has been GENERALLY negative. Notice how I keep saying &quot;generally&quot;? I am not saying all christians are like that. You may not be, if so, I congratulate you on being more reasonable than most.

As for transforming this into a religious thread, welcome to the forums. Now you have learned the lesson that any thread that hints of religion will turn into a religious discussion, regardless of the original intent. Deal with it. It's happened before, and it will happen again.



<< I simply used that &quot;prayer&quot; as an example that a child is able to spot the obvious incongruities in our policy: Ban religious speech in a public institution, but support (and in some cases encourage) speech and conduct which runs counter to long-term societal success and health. Can you simply not see that it is a double standard? >>


You wanna discuss the &quot;double standard&quot;? Fine. My view on it is, people of most other faiths can talk about their religion and keep it to themselves. Christians generally (there it is again) cannot. If we didn't have the regulations banning religious speech in schools, I don't wanna know how much religious drivel I'd have to put up with. It's bad enough as it is.

I have never had a Jew, Muslim, or person of any other faith attempt to make me listen to them about how their faith is &quot;superior&quot;. I've endured it many times outside of the classroom from christians. If we didn't have these regulations, I'm scared to think about how many times I'd be forced to listen to the propaganda inside the classroom.

 

[Opinionated]

<< Oh, and how are you not so sure?
You imagine it to be invisible?
Oh, yeah. The invisible god exists, but the societally-invisible Christian principles do not.
Which is it: invisible exists, or it does not? >>



UG.... dude... I read it twice, and I really tried to get it. Sorry, man. What the heck were you trying to say?

You seem a little on edge there buddy. Why don't we give the old religion thing a rest, OK. It seems to be upsetting you a bit. I'd rather be discussing the constitutional aspects of this topic anyway.....

Napalm381 - I absolutely understand where you are coming from. And if you check my posts, I have been TRYING to discuss this from a constitutional angle.... to no avail however. I don't much like the &quot;typical&quot; evangelical style as it is often practiced today either. I don't think it's biblical, and I think &quot;high pressure&quot; sales does more harm than good in most instances. I won't go any further into what I DO belief on this point, as I was not asked.

I AM a Christian, and I am unafraid to declare it. But I do not believe it is my mission to evangelize, so I don't. I have other talents and try to use them to the best of my ability.



<< When was the last time you heard a christian discuss their religion objectively? I can't remember a time. >>



heh... yeah... I understand. Well, it's hard to discuss anything faith-based objectively.... although it is possible. Some of my &quot;brothers&quot; tend to get a little over-zealous.... I don't think it's out of any malice. I remember how it felt when I was a &quot;young&quot; Christian.... Your heart is so full, and you get so fired up that you just want to tell eveyone.... Not necessarily the best tactic...

Well, anyway... I'll try to be judicious in my approach to the subject..... even though I am...

Opinionated

 

[Opinionated]

Napalm381 - The &quot;provoked&quot; comment was not directed at you, but at UG... sorry.



<< Wake up and smell the coffee - there are other religions, cultures and opinions. If we don't want the Christian god, then leave us alone. It's not use trying to convert people because all you will get out of it is arguments like these, where both parties can argue until they get blue in the face, and yet it will have no use, because you can't persuade the other person. >>



toolgirl - I'm will assume that you just felt the need to &quot;vent&quot; in general. I would certainly hope that you could easily tell that I am NOT here to &quot;convert&quot; anybody.....

....well other than to get folks to realize that there is a double standard for freedom of speech in public schools....

Guys, seriously.... I'll continue to banter with you all in this thread about whatever you wish, but I don't think &quot;I&quot; am the guy you are mad at. I will however gladly act as a sounding board for anything you'd like to get off your chest. I am a good listener.... even though I am...

Opinionated

 

[UG]

Opinionated;

<...I have no earthly idea whether there any awowed athiests holding public office...>

No, because Christianity is your all-consuming philosophy. Its effects are an addiction not unlike alcohol or cocaine.

Nothing exists except your perceived reality.

&quot;Everybody must get stoned.&quot;

Atheists don't buy into your psycho-babble. Just leave us out of your dellusioned equation.

That's all we ask: just leave us alone. Psycho-pluke yourselves, if you have to.

We don't need it.

 

[Opinionated]

<< No, because Christianity is your all-consuming philosophy. Its effects are an addiction not unlike alcohol or cocaine. >>



Come on, UG... that's just silly.



<< Nothing exists except your perceived reality. >>



Heh, heh... perceived reality.... perception and reality are mutually exclusive concepts...



<< Atheists don't buy into your psycho-babble. Just leave us out of your dellusioned equation. >>



Geez, dude.... lighten up. You seem to have a persistant need to continually attack my belief system, while I have only once referred to and never attacked (or even commented on) your belief system's (or lack of one whichever way you prefer) validity.

I have not once asked you to abandon your belief system for mine. What you believe is up to you.

Once again, you refuse to acknowledge that I came here to discuss constitutional law as it is applied in our public institutions, specifically public schools.

Why are you so angry? Why are you so angry at me? Step back a minute, look at what I've written. Perhaps then you'll realize that I'm not trying to take anything away from you or to force anything upon you. Just came to have good, healthy debate of ideas. I enjoy the banter, because I am....

Opinionated

 

[Pretender]

Opinionated:

<< I however have personally witnessed a student that was given a failing grade on an English paper simply because the topic was &quot;Basic Tenets of Christianity&quot;. >>

Separation of church and state doesn't just 'protect' students, but teachers too. What if the teacher didn't know about Christianity, or, as some would put it, would be 'offended' (I don't know why people would be offended about reading/listening about other religions, but this appears to be a common excuse). I don't exactly see how that had to do with what I said about being able to discuss religion in a historical sense, but whatever.




<< While it is true that an open discussion of Christianity at the lunch table will buy you a trip to the &quot;office&quot; and probably a suspension, >>

What the hell type of school did you go to? In our lunch room we can talk about whatever the hell we want. Although I'm an athiest and don't hang out with religious types so I haven't really seen any discussions, I'm sure they probably do exist. Heck, if talking about Christianity got people sent to the office, the stuff I talk about with my friends in the lunch room would probably get me expelled. Private discussions (as far as I know in most schools) about religion are fine, discussions in class (especially if sanctioned by a teacher and not related to what we're supposed to be learning) are more frowned upon.

 

[Opinionated]

Pretender - My point was that that English paper could have been on &quot;Toe Cleaning and its Sociological Impact on Extinct Species of Sloth&quot;. It was an English paper and should have been graded on the mechanics of the paper, not judged by content.

I didn't go to either of these schools.... I witnessed one, and researched the other....

The point is to make clear the double standard that is imposed on &quot;certain&quot; kinds of speech.

 

[pastee]

It's sad that we've seperated so far from the past that the things considered once evil, aren't even considered different.

Interesting article my friend.

 

[UG]

{b]Opinionated[/b];

Lighten up, Dude.

I'm not angry. I'm opinionated.

 

[UG]

Perception and reality are NOT mutualy exclusive.

You can't think you know the later without the former.

Without the former, the later might as well not be.

 

[UG]

Oh, and attacking your belief system is what keeps the rest of us free of it.

 

[UG]

As for Constituional Law, it says your belief system has no business in public education.

What part of 'no' do you need to further discuss?

 

[UG]

Besides, this thread is supposed to be about the soothing effects of prayer, not about me.

So, to issue: Prayer belongs in your church, or in your home. It does not belong in our schools.

 

[Moonbeam]

Attacking something can also be a way to chain yourself to it.

I read this thread and like the feel I get about you, Opinionated.

As a person who holds a spiritual view of life, at least as I use the word, but one who sees the god experience more in psychological than religious terms, I do sympathize with both sides of the issue.

We have to be somewhat careful about religion mixing with our secular affairs, because everybody is always absolutely right about their religion. Well I did hear about a Buddist sect that said their religion might not be the best religion, but that it WAS their religion.