Read the reasons for the use of force agains Iraq

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alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: alchemize
If we'd found serious stockpiles of WMD's, advanced nuclear technology, and direct evidence of cooperation with Al Qaida then I probably would say "it was worth it". Instead it was the most costly message ever sent to the arab/muslim world - "The US will come kick your ass (on the ground) if we have to".

All those other reasons don't really mean much to me, I could care less about the Iraqi people.

Clearly in hindsight it was a bad choice.

You might think so, but I suggest that's not the message they received.

Yeap, I would bet that most of the enemies of the US are very, very happy that we invaded Iraq. (Saddam being a notable exception... haha) I mean can you think of a single foreign policy action that the US has taken in a generation that has weakened us more?
Whatever...you guys are clueless when it comes to the military. Maybe I am also - but I've read lots of Tom Clancy :)

In a few short years we'll be out of Iraq and we'll have a pretty damn battle-hardened army. Technnology advances continue. I would say our military readiness in 2012 will be MUCH better than it was in 2001.

Obama has already said he won't allow Iran to go nuclear. Europe concurs.

So....
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,823
6,369
126
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: alchemize
If we'd found serious stockpiles of WMD's, advanced nuclear technology, and direct evidence of cooperation with Al Qaida then I probably would say "it was worth it". Instead it was the most costly message ever sent to the arab/muslim world - "The US will come kick your ass (on the ground) if we have to".

All those other reasons don't really mean much to me, I could care less about the Iraqi people.

Clearly in hindsight it was a bad choice.

You might think so, but I suggest that's not the message they received.

Yeap, I would bet that most of the enemies of the US are very, very happy that we invaded Iraq. (Saddam being a notable exception... haha) I mean can you think of a single foreign policy action that the US has taken in a generation that has weakened us more?
Whatever...you guys are clueless when it comes to the military. Maybe I am also - but I've read lots of Tom Clancy :)

In a few short years we'll be out of Iraq and we'll have a pretty damn battle-hardened army. Technnology advances continue. I would say our military readiness in 2012 will be MUCH better than it was in 2001.

Obama has already said he won't allow Iran to go nuclear. Europe concurs.

So....

So this was all just a Military Training Exercise? Really grasping for straws now, don't you think.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: alchemize
If we'd found serious stockpiles of WMD's, advanced nuclear technology, and direct evidence of cooperation with Al Qaida then I probably would say "it was worth it". Instead it was the most costly message ever sent to the arab/muslim world - "The US will come kick your ass (on the ground) if we have to".

All those other reasons don't really mean much to me, I could care less about the Iraqi people.

Clearly in hindsight it was a bad choice.

You might think so, but I suggest that's not the message they received.

Yeap, I would bet that most of the enemies of the US are very, very happy that we invaded Iraq. (Saddam being a notable exception... haha) I mean can you think of a single foreign policy action that the US has taken in a generation that has weakened us more?
Whatever...you guys are clueless when it comes to the military. Maybe I am also - but I've read lots of Tom Clancy :)

In a few short years we'll be out of Iraq and we'll have a pretty damn battle-hardened army. Technnology advances continue. I would say our military readiness in 2012 will be MUCH better than it was in 2001.

Obama has already said he won't allow Iran to go nuclear. Europe concurs.

So....

So this was all just a Military Training Exercise? Really grasping for straws now, don't you think.
:confused:
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
0
Another Iraq thread? Really? :confused:

This dead horse has been flogged, beaten, waterboarded and stomped in the ground many times over.

Right?
 

jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,225
664
126
Yep, good thing we went in to Iraq to stop all of the Palestinian suicide bombers in Israel... did you really just suggest that? LMAO.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: Arkaign

Truth ^. Painful but true. The (R)'s have fumbled their 'foreign policy' reputation

The good 'reputation' they have is pretty much undeserved, more marketing than history.

Pretty much the only Republican President who they can much rest on at all in the last century is Eisenhower, and that has more to do with his role in WWII than as President. As President, he started the US down the dark road of covert ops for overthrowing governments including democracies to install dictators, sometimes with assassinations, resulting in the coining of the term 'blowback' for the CIA's first covert op, overthrowing democracy in Iran to protect low oil prices, installing the Shah, not a proud moment.

Not to mention his overall allowing the Dulles brothers (Allen at CIA and John Foster as Secretary of State) pursue overly right-wing policies heightening the cold war and overly siiding blindly with Europe, supporting their wrongful policies of colonization aroud the world - including ignoring Vietname's request for the US to live up to its ideals and not let France re-colonize them. Instead, the US sided with France and eventually was paying 90% of France's Vietnam war costs, paving the way for our little problems there later.

Perhaps his greatest act on foreign policy was his farewell speech warning of the excessive growth of the military-industrial(-congressional) complex - anathema to modern Repubs.

Nixon of course misled the nation on his Vietnam policy, running on a 'secret plan' to end the war that was some nutty attempt to scare the Vietnamese into thinking he was nuts and would nuke them that didn't work, with his extending the war and secretly heading into Cambodia; yes, he went to China - after Eisenhower had told JFK he would not publically oppose him on foreign policy unless he did one thing, recognized China.

Ford? Do we talk about his secretly green-lightening Indonseia's brutal invasion of East Timor on his visit there, the invasion begun the day after he left, killling 250,000?

Or should we summarize it with his debate gaffe about Poland not being under Soviet dominance?

Reagan was a bigger disaster, from his School of the American training of terrorists throughout Central America, to his backing of death squads in nations he allied with (such as the ones who assassinated the Catholic archbishop and raped and murdered nuns) and terrorists in ones he opposed (Contras in Nicaragua), brilliantly subverting Congress' ban on such policies by illegally selling arms to Iran (!) through middle-man Israel (!!), further indebting the US to Israel, perhaps playing a role in his sending US Marines on Israel's behalf into their wrongful invasion of Lebanon, where they were promptly blown up and Reagan for all his tough talk quickly retreated; or his absurd invasion of Grenada for the crime of Governing while being Liberal, with plenty of lies and nonsensical pretext, or his gross squandering of opportunity as Grobachev led the USSR to dissolve and attempted to partner with the US on peace initiatives, and said Reagan had wasted a historic opportunity for arms control as Reagan refused to give up 'Star Wars'.

The first President Bush led the nation to an unjust war based on lies in Panama; he led the nation into an initially unpopular war in Iraq based on lies including the testimony to Congress by a woman of Iraqi troops taking hundreds of Kuwaiti babies out of incubators and leaving them on the floor - a woman who happened to be inventing the stories, later found to be the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador, with the whole disinformation campaign facilitated by the Kuwaiti government hiring a US advertising agency branch headed by Bush's former chief of staff. The chance to downsize the US military and return to a more traditional foreign policy now that the threats of Hitler and the USSR were gone, the 'peace dividend' after decades of heightened spending, was wasted.

Nothing need be said about GWB.

We could go back further, to Teddy Roosevelt's terribly wrongful occupation of the Phillippenes for apparently little more reason that as an exercise of our muscle (Wilson finally quietly ended it later as pointless), with hundreds of thousands of Phillippene civilians killed.

The source of the myth about Republcican strength rests largely on the fact that the Republicans, finding themselves unelectable when the nation saw democrats fix the nation whether following the Republian Great Depression or leading to victory in WWII, finally found an issue to run on - the red scare, accusing Democrats of being 'soft on communism', inventing bogeymen and playing on Americans' fear, the origin of the 'McCarthy era' and the John Birch Society, and later the 'Neocons'.

Not exactly a proud, legitimate source of 'foreign policy credential, but the weak people who are vulnerable to a strong-talking demagogue are big fans of the approach.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
My problem with the OP and people like him is that they pretend to believe in liberty and small govt while doing everything they possibly can to find any excuse to grow govt and squander the nation's treasury fighting foreign wars. But if one dime of that same govt money is spent domestically on infrastructure or safety nets, it's suddenly socialism. The hypocrisy is disgusting. I hate to pull a McOwen here, but it's obvious that you really do hate America and its people.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,337
136
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why even bother, so many people will never understand more than WMDs and will hold on that and only that no matter what the truth is.

"The truth" is that President Bush lied. PERIOD.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: ironwing
spidey07 give it up. Your man is a war criminal and disgrace to this nation. His policies are moral outrages as well as abject practical failures. He spent a ton on money and wasted thousands of lives to achieve nothing. Less than nothing. Unless you count W's dad and Cheney's buds making out like bandits. Continuing to spin Bush's lies and perversions is an insult to the soldiers who died carrying out his orders.

When was the last time Israel had mass suicide bombings funded by Iraq?
When was the last time US territories were attacked?

Saving lives is what we did. THAT'S what we achieved. To say nothing was achieved is just being totally dishonest and really just plain ignorant to facts.

We "saved lives" by killing 100,000s of innocents and causing 2 mil to emigrate?
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,045
10,373
136
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
To Bush apologist. He is not your Messiah! Or anyone's!

Who passed the authorization for use of force? Congress, that's correct.

It's a crime that Obama wasn't in the Senate at the time, to be given the false intelligence reports and to conclude the same as his fellows. That he could boast against it when I damn well know he would have supported it, was one of his greatest ploys during the campaign.

All because he was no one of importance when that decision was made.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
36,045
10,373
136
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: spidey07
Saving lives is what we did. THAT'S what we achieved. To say nothing was achieved is just being totally dishonest and really just plain ignorant to facts.

We "saved lives" by killing 100,000s of innocents and causing 2 mil to emigrate?

We killed more people yet to be claimed, by removing Iran's greatest opponent.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
To Bush apologist. He is not your Messiah! Or anyone's!

Who passed the authorization for use of force? Congress, that's correct.

It's a crime that Obama wasn't in the Senate at the time, to be given the false intelligence reports and to conclude the same as his fellows. That he could boast against it when I damn well know he would have supported it, was one of his greatest ploys during the campaign.

All because he was no one of importance when that decision was made.

HE is kinda important now thos aint he?

:p
 

ModerateRepZero

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2006
1,572
5
81
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: ironwing
spidey07 give it up. Your man is a war criminal and disgrace to this nation. His policies are moral outrages as well as abject practical failures. He spent a ton on money and wasted thousands of lives to achieve nothing. Less than nothing. Unless you count W's dad and Cheney's buds making out like bandits. Continuing to spin Bush's lies and perversions is an insult to the soldiers who died carrying out his orders.

When was the last time Israel had mass suicide bombings funded by Iraq?
When was the last time US territories were attacked?

Saving lives is what we did. THAT'S what we achieved. To say nothing was achieved is just being totally dishonest and really just plain ignorant to facts.

We "saved lives" by killing 100,000s of innocents and causing 2 mil to emigrate?

Are you serious spidey? What's the LINK between Israel and Iraq as far as suicide bombings?
Last i checked Hamas as the one who was advocating violence against Israel and THEY were the ones doing the suicide bombers. Saddam may have been supportive of the Palestinians but he was SECULAR, not a rabid Muslim >_>.

You have provided no PROOF and are just assuming that correlation = causation. There was a study in taiwan years ago to determine what variables were the best predictor of birth-control being adopted in households. the main factor was found to be the number of electrical appliances such as toaster ovens. But that obviously has nothing to do by itself with birth control....
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,147
55,676
136
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: eskimospy

Yeap, I would bet that most of the enemies of the US are very, very happy that we invaded Iraq. (Saddam being a notable exception... haha) I mean can you think of a single foreign policy action that the US has taken in a generation that has weakened us more?
Whatever...you guys are clueless when it comes to the military. Maybe I am also - but I've read lots of Tom Clancy :)

In a few short years we'll be out of Iraq and we'll have a pretty damn battle-hardened army. Technnology advances continue. I would say our military readiness in 2012 will be MUCH better than it was in 2001.

Obama has already said he won't allow Iran to go nuclear. Europe concurs.

So....

I'm clueless on the military? Not only did I spend seven years in it, but I participated in the Iraq conflict, and I have a degree in political science that involved quite a few courses on the subject. While that doesn't make me an expert or anything, it sure as shit doesn't make me clueless on the subject.

So what if our military will be more ready in 2012 than it was in 2001? You don't send a military to war to make it more capable for the next war, you send a military somewhere to accomplish strategic and diplomatic objectives. Our efforts over there at great expense both in lives and in dollars has not yielded us anywhere close to commensurate benefits, and has raised the specter of a hegemonic Iran, a power far more capable and hostile to US interests than Iraq was. Tell me how good you think that decision was.

As for Iran going nuclear, we'll see about that. I bet you that they do. Look back at what the US was promising about not allowing North Korea to go nuclear. We said the exact same things about them, and yet they did.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Originally posted by: ModerateRepZero
Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: ironwing
spidey07 give it up. Your man is a war criminal and disgrace to this nation. His policies are moral outrages as well as abject practical failures. He spent a ton on money and wasted thousands of lives to achieve nothing. Less than nothing. Unless you count W's dad and Cheney's buds making out like bandits. Continuing to spin Bush's lies and perversions is an insult to the soldiers who died carrying out his orders.

When was the last time Israel had mass suicide bombings funded by Iraq?
When was the last time US territories were attacked?

Saving lives is what we did. THAT'S what we achieved. To say nothing was achieved is just being totally dishonest and really just plain ignorant to facts.

We "saved lives" by killing 100,000s of innocents and causing 2 mil to emigrate?

Are you serious spidey? What's the LINK between Israel and Iraq as far as suicide bombings?
Last i checked Hamas as the one who was advocating violence against Israel and THEY were the ones doing the suicide bombers. Saddam may have been supportive of the Palestinians but he was SECULAR, not a rabid Muslim >_>.

You have provided no PROOF and are just assuming that correlation = causation. There was a study in taiwan years ago to determine what variables were the best predictor of birth-control being adopted in households. the main factor was found to be the number of electrical appliances such as toaster ovens. But that obviously has nothing to do by itself with birth control....

Actually, IIRC Saddam gave something like $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers who attacked Israel.
 

ModerateRepZero

Golden Member
Jan 12, 2006
1,572
5
81
I actually do vaguely recall something like that. Still, let's be honest; people were sucide bombing Israelis before Saddam announced that reward. People are *still* going to be sucide bombing Israelis after Saddam's removal.

http://middleeast.about.com/b/...ael-in-over-a-year.htm

Saddam was captured in Dec 2004 iirc. The article mentions a suicide bombing in Feb 08, the "first in over a year".
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: WHAMPOM
To Bush apologist. He is not your Messiah! Or anyone's!

Who passed the authorization for use of force? Congress, that's correct.

It's a crime that Obama wasn't in the Senate at the time, to be given the false intelligence reports and to conclude the same as his fellows. That he could boast against it when I damn well know he would have supported it, was one of his greatest ploys during the campaign.

All because he was no one of importance when that decision was made.

Heh. You know damn well he would have supported it? How's that? Ouija board? Magic 8-ball? What?

After being exposed as soft-headed for jumping to multiple conclusions wrt Iraq, you'd think that people might be a little more wary of doing so... but, No! They do it again, to justify having done it in the first place!

Arguing with that is beyond words- it's like trying to convince a paranoid schizophrenic that he's crazy...
 

eilute

Senior member
Jun 1, 2005
477
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
It's very disturbing to see post after post saying the war was all about weapons of mass destruction. Educate yourself please.


Basically there were ten false pretenses, and the WDM lie was just the tip of the iceberg. Let me see if I can break this down.

* Iraq's noncompliance with the conditions of the 1991 cease fire, including interference with weapons inspectors.
Unilateral actions cannot legitimately enforce multilateral agreements.

* Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop such weapons, posed a "threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region."[2]

No they didn't. The State Department described the threat as "highly dubious," although I've heard more insulting phrases than "highly dubious."

* Iraq's "brutal repression of its civilian population."
Not out country. Not our problem. You should note that the removal of the brutal repression has resulted in a civil war.

* Iraq's "capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people".
They have only used WMD in times of war.

* Iraq's hostility towards the United States as demonstrated by the alleged 1993 assassination attempt of former President George H. W. Bush, and firing on coalition aircraft enforcing the no-fly zones following the 1991 Gulf War.
This is alleged and not necessarily an action of the Iraqi government. As to our planes, mind you that they are in Iraqi airspace, and thus cannot be described as an act of aggression.

* Members of al-Qaeda were "known to be in Iraq."
Quit the spreading this Iraq-9/11 BS.

* Iraq's "continu[ing] to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations," including anti-United States terrorist organizations.
Would you like to name a few? Please tell us how these specific terrorist organizations threaten the US?

* The authorization by the Constitution and the Congress for the President to fight anti-United States terrorism.
This does not relate to Iraq.

* Citing the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998, the resolution reiterated that it should be the policy of the United States to remove the Saddam Hussein regime and promote a democratic replacement.

Are you saying that the invasion was a good idea?

To paraquote somebody: People use to ask why we did not go into Baghdad during the first gulf war. They don't ask that anymore.
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
1,055
0
0
In a best-case scenario, Iraq will end up a fairly unstable state more or less closely aligned with Iran, with unequal oil revenue distribution and aggrieved Sunni and Kurdish minorities, but at least still unified, not a declared enemy of the U.S. In a worst-case scenario, the country would become a failed state, descend again into violence on the scale of the civil war of 2006-2007 or worse and be a haven for jihadists and an open sore in the Middle East.

As for the WMD. Bush said he wasn't prepared to be a war president, said that the biggest disappointment of his presidency was the "intelligence failure" that he claimed led him to believe that it was too risky to allow Saddam Hussein to remain in power and admitted that if he had known that Saddam did not have WMD, he might never have started the war.
 

railer

Golden Member
Apr 15, 2000
1,552
69
91
<yawn>

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with any feeble minded partisan hack, but I will breifly say:

At the time, over 2/3's of the american public, as well as a majority of thier elected leaders (including the democrats, including the Clintons, etc, etc) were in favor of the Iraq invasion.

It's easy to look back 5 years later and realize that it was a bad idea. But the partisan fools who constantly bleat "bush is evil, no wmd's" are missing the point by a large margin.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
136
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
In a best-case scenario, Iraq will end up a fairly unstable state more or less closely aligned with Iran, with unequal oil revenue distribution and aggrieved Sunni and Kurdish minorities, but at least still unified, not a declared enemy of the U.S. In a worst-case scenario, the country would become a failed state, descend again into violence on the scale of the civil war of 2006-2007 or worse and be a haven for jihadists and an open sore in the Middle East.

As for the WMD. Bush said he wasn't prepared to be a war president, said that the biggest disappointment of his presidency was the "intelligence failure" that he claimed led him to believe that it was too risky to allow Saddam Hussein to remain in power and admitted that if he had known that Saddam did not have WMD, he might never have started the war.

Please. Bush's recent statements are merely an exercise in face-saving, an attempt to invoke plausible deniability where none exists.

Bush believed what he wanted to believe, made his decisions based on that, and his subordinates provided the "evidence" to back him up. The proper term is "simulated rationality"-

Public reason faces a long series of challenges, which taken together are formidable. One major challenge is the professionally cultivated practice of simulated rationality: if you're a powerholder, or more likely a loose network or segmentary coalition of powerholders, and you want to take certain actions, and if norms of public reason are in effect, then you will naturally search for rational-sounding arguments for your plans. This procedure -- decision first, then arguments -- is utterly routinized throughout the public and private bureaucracies of the world, and a whole industry of public relations (and other communications professions that operate on the same conceptual basis as public relations) exists to support it. The core concept of public relations is the "perception": what matters in practical terms is not whether one's arguments are rational, but whether they are perceived as rational. One must adopt the surface forms of rational argument -- arranging words in logical-seeming ways, using scientific vocabulary, adducing (carefully selected) facts, providing impressive-sounding statistics, citing the opinions of authorities (that is, people who will be perceived as authorities), and so forth. When norms of public reason have been institutionalized, producing this reason-effect is half the battle, and one can purchase reason-effects by the yard.

http://web.archive.org/web/200...t.php3?article_id=3159

Puff it up with a lot of fearmongering, disinformation, conflation, and bloodlust over 9/11 to achieve the desired result.

Claims to the contrary are an exercise in willful blindness at this point. Can you say chumped? bamboozled? flimflammed? How about hornswaggled?

The OP can't, won't, never will admit to such because of a heavy emotional commitment and an unwarranted faith in the judgement of the leaders of the Conservative Cause. It's a form of loyalty beyond reason.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,147
55,676
136
Originally posted by: railer
<yawn>

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with any feeble minded partisan hack, but I will breifly say:

At the time, over 2/3's of the american public, as well as a majority of thier elected leaders (including the democrats, including the Clintons, etc, etc) were in favor of the Iraq invasion.

It's easy to look back 5 years later and realize that it was a bad idea. But the partisan fools who constantly bleat "bush is evil, no wmd's" are missing the point by a large margin.

If you either did not see or were unable to see the huge scale propaganda campaign that contributed to that support, then you have missed the point by a large margin.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I'm sure the AUMF said all sorts of interesting things, but popular perception is shaped by what people in power say...and the only reason that was flogged by the Bush administration leading up to the war was the alleged WMDs. If that's not the only reason, it's the biggest one.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Why even bother, so many people will never understand more than WMDs and will hold on that and only that no matter what the truth is.

"The truth" is that President Bush lied. PERIOD.
When did Bush lie??

Where has it been proven that Bush knew he was saying something untrue at the time he said it.