Re-Opened: The P&N Improvement Association -- Please Read & Contribute

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JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Lets talk about subject matter.....

There is a whole lot of purposely misleading thread titles........
Also does a thread such as our resaident looneytune Anarchist posted today belong in P&N??
Was Adam Lanza a real person?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296757


You have to be bat shit insane to actually believe that it was some sort of government conspiracy.......then Anarchist also refers to 9/11..........

nuff said.......
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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why leave it up to the populace to decide??
After all we are all guests on these forums.
We do not own or operate these forums.

I'm on board with no need for a vote on this issue and just a strait jump to having a sub forum; maybe a vote after for keeping it?

You have to be bat shit insane to actually believe that it was some sort of government conspiracy.......then Anarchist also refers to 9/11..........
I accept people for being bat-shit, if they are honest they'll express exactly why they're bat-shit very quickly.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Great. :/


Again, this is why I strongly oppose a vote.

If it is created, then those who do not want it can ignore it, and those who want it can use it. The people who didn't want it are out nothing.

If it is shot down, then everyone is stuck with what we have now. The people who did want it are screwed.

Sorry, but I see no reason to oppose this other than spite.
With all due respect, you're offering a very one-sided view of this. There are clearly drawbacks to splitting P&N into two forums. It dilutes the content and "value" of the current P&N by moving some portion of it into a new forum. It also creates a lot of duplication. effectively ensuring a great many topics will be reposted. Many people will want to follow both threads, meaning extra effort for substantially redundant content. Some will want to actively participate in both threads, meaning they'll be spending extra effort creating redundant content. The rest of Anadtech emphasizes no reposts; virtually every thread belongs in exactly one forum. This creates an opposite situation, where every P&N-type thread potentially belongs in two forums.

That said, I agree that I want to see P&N changed. I explained my first choice early in this thread: a single P&N with general rules, giving moderators great latitude in using their own good judgment, and a focus more on moderation for content (e.g., intellectual dishonesty, fallacies, misinformation) rather than the superficial (e.g., insults). I recognize this approach has its own drawbacks, not the least of which is it requires more moderation effort than merely moderating for insults.

While not my preference, the split P&N approach is certainly a viable alternative. If management decides to go with that instead, I will get behind it. I'm comfortable with the idea that Anandtech is NOT a democracy, and that my opinions are considered at all only as a courtesy, not as an entitlement.

My main concern is that a split P&N will require at least as much moderation effort as my suggestion, assuming that the new sub-forum is actively moderated for content. (If instead it's only moderated for superficial behavior like insults, I see it being no different than Idontcare's experiment last year, with equally unsatisfactory results: a safe haven for trolls and burned out moderators.) Perk feels this won't be a problem, and I'll defer to his experience. I certainly hope my concerns are misplaced.

I am happy to hear P&N is getting attention. I absolutely agree it is nearly useless in its current form.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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With all due respect, you're offering a very one-sided view of this. There are clearly drawbacks to splitting P&N into two forums. It dilutes the content and "value" of the current P&N by moving some portion of it into a new forum. It also creates a lot of duplication. effectively ensuring a great many topics will be reposted. Many people will want to follow both threads, meaning extra effort for substantially redundant content. Some will want to actively participate in both threads, meaning they'll be spending extra effort creating redundant content. The rest of Anadtech emphasizes no reposts; virtually every thread belongs in exactly one forum. This creates an opposite situation, where every P&N-type thread potentially belongs in two forums.

Very valid arguments. I thank you for making them. Seriously.

Most of my objections prior were because people were just saying "don't do it" or "there's no need" without any good reasoning.

I agree that there is no ideal solution here. I just see the subforum as being the least of several evils. (Bear in mind that I personally would like to just see what we're calling the "subforum" just be P&N itself. But I'm trying to accommodate people who prefer the current chaos.)
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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Very valid arguments. I thank you for making them. Seriously.

Most of my objections prior were because people were just saying "don't do it" or "there's no need" without any good reasoning.

I agree that there is no ideal solution here. I just see the subforum as being the least of several evils. (Bear in mind that I personally would like to just see what we're calling the "subforum" just be P&N itself. But I'm trying to accommodate people who prefer the current chaos.)
Yep, agree. It's an imperfect world. There are no perfect solutions.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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With all due respect, you're offering a very one-sided view of this. There are clearly drawbacks to splitting P&N into two forums. It dilutes the content and "value" of the current P&N by moving some portion of it into a new forum. It also creates a lot of duplication. effectively ensuring a great many topics will be reposted. Many people will want to follow both threads, meaning extra effort for substantially redundant content. Some will want to actively participate in both threads, meaning they'll be spending extra effort creating redundant content. The rest of Anadtech emphasizes no reposts; virtually every thread belongs in exactly one forum. This creates an opposite situation, where every P&N-type thread potentially belongs in two forums.

Powerful point that will need to be properly addressed if such a two forum solution is acted on.
 
Dec 10, 2005
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I just don't see the need for two forums. Why not apply a few rules within the existing P&N? Give the mods the latitude to ban the constant trolls and enforce a rule on thread titles (they should be honest and match the theme of whatever material is linked) to keep them from going off the rails immediately.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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Well, the obvious answer to why the need for two forums is that you want to apply rules and others do not.

I mean, sure, if they gave me the power I could clean up P&N in a couple of days. But there are probably a few people who wouldn't be very happy about the implications. :)

The subforum is a compromise. No solution is perfect, no compromise is perfect.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
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With all due respect, you're offering a very one-sided view of this. There are clearly drawbacks to splitting P&N into two forums. It dilutes the content and "value" of the current P&N by moving some portion of it into a new forum. It also creates a lot of duplication. effectively ensuring a great many topics will be reposted. Many people will want to follow both threads, meaning extra effort for substantially redundant content. Some will want to actively participate in both threads, meaning they'll be spending extra effort creating redundant content. The rest of Anadtech emphasizes no reposts; virtually every thread belongs in exactly one forum. This creates an opposite situation, where every P&N-type thread potentially belongs in two forums.

In fairness, how is that any different than now? Consider the front page, and the front page only of P&N right now. How many gun threads are going on at this very minute?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296817
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296085
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296798
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296026
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296738
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296339
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296425
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296812
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296841
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296557
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296471
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296354

Now, one person may want to follow every one of those threads. They may also want to follow all the threads in on page two or the threads in ATOT. Frankly, there is more content here than can be followed short of having essentially unlimited free time. We already have to pick and choose what threads we follow, we already have to prioritize. If anything, this makes it easier. With a subforum, I will have a reasonable expectation the thread will remain on topic and relatively clean. With P&N as it is now, I have a reasonable expectation it won't. That means I can get a good sense of where I want to be before I even start in on the threads.

Now, more directly to your point, do you expect the number of posts to double in response to this? I suspect that will not be the case, because, while you may end up with two threads for everything, I don't think you will see everyone posting in each one. Under the current system, you would simply see all the same people replying to each other in one thread as all interested parties would be discussing it anyway. I would expect each thread to become shorter and so less time consuming to follow. I guess we will see should they choose to implement it.

Also, as far as content being diluted, I expect the opposite to happen. People who are concerned with content would head to the moderated forum, and, if heavily moderated enough, should be able to add it without the level of noise we see in every thread in this forum. I think this would be a very good thing for the content minded reader by acting as a filter against the static.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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In fairness, how is that any different than now? Consider the front page, and the front page only of P&N right now. How many gun threads are going on at this very minute?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296817
[ ... trimmed list ... ]
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2296354
You are arguing a straw man. I didn't say there was no duplication in Anandtech. I stated "Anandtech emphasizes no reposts", which is conventionally regarded as posting multiple threads about the same story. A hot and wide-ranging issue such as firearms and the Second Amendment unavoidably encompasses a wide spectrum of stories. Deciding where to draw the line defining differences warranting a new thread is subjective. Most normal stories, however, get a single thread, with moderators locking or merging duplicates.


Now, one person may want to follow every one of those threads. They may also want to follow all the threads in on page two or the threads in ATOT. Frankly, there is more content here than can be followed short of having essentially unlimited free time. We already have to pick and choose what threads we follow, we already have to prioritize. If anything, this makes it easier. With a subforum, I will have a reasonable expectation the thread will remain on topic and relatively clean. With P&N as it is now, I have a reasonable expectation it won't. That means I can get a good sense of where I want to be before I even start in on the threads.
Which sounds like a great solution for you, and I have no quibble with that. Others may have different preferences, however.


Now, more directly to your point, do you expect the number of posts to double in response to this? I suspect that will not be the case, because, while you may end up with two threads for everything, I don't think you will see everyone posting in each one. Under the current system, you would simply see all the same people replying to each other in one thread as all interested parties would be discussing it anyway. I would expect each thread to become shorter and so less time consuming to follow. I guess we will see should they choose to implement it.
Double? No. Increase by some amount? Certainly. Please note what I said: " Many people will want to follow both threads" while only "Some will want to actively participate in both threads." Less than double, greater than none.


Also, as far as content being diluted, I expect the opposite to happen. People who are concerned with content would head to the moderated forum, and, if heavily moderated enough, should be able to add it without the level of noise we see in every thread in this forum. I think this would be a very good thing for the content minded reader by acting as a filter against the static.
I agree that if one looks only at the new sub-forum, content should be more concentrated (or to put it another way, the S/N ratio should be better). If one looks at both P&Ns together, however, content will be diluted overall. The issue is where people post unique content. Some will be repeated in both forums, meaning people reading either forum will see it. Other content will appear in only one forum, however. Therefore, reading ALL of the content available will require reading both forums, including wading through not only the usual noise but also the now-duplicated content. Thus, total P&N content will be diluted, at least to some extent.

Each person will have to decided for himself whether it's worth the time and effort to read both forums to see all unique content. That's not the end of the world, but it is a drawback for those who don't want to miss anything.

Which brings me back to my original point. "While not my preference, the split P&N approach is certainly a viable alternative." I thought this was clear that I wasn't suggesting the sub-forum was unworkable, or even that it was a bad idea. I like the idea, at least as an experiment, even though it isn't my first choice. I was simply responding to the suggestion that it has no drawbacks by pointing out a couple of them. There are pros and cons to everything.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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Does anyone know how the more restricted forums on Ars Technica work out? I would imagine that's the best analog to this suggestion.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
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dont split P&N.

The only thing that needs to be addressed are thread titles that are lies or bend the truth so much that the point of the thread is really only to incite or start a flame war.

Everything else is just part of being on a popular and open forum.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
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You are arguing a straw man.
I'm not arguing with anything.
I didn't say there was no duplication in Anandtech. I stated "Anandtech emphasizes no reposts", which is conventionally regarded as posting multiple threads about the same story. A hot and wide-ranging issue such as firearms and the Second Amendment unavoidably encompasses a wide spectrum of stories. Deciding where to draw the line defining differences warranting a new thread is subjective. Most normal stories, however, get a single thread, with moderators locking or merging duplicates.

Double? No. Increase by some amount? Certainly. Please note what I said: " Many people will want to follow both threads" while only "Some will want to actively participate in both threads." Less than double, greater than none.

Easy tiger. I'm not sure I grant substantially greater than none; time is a commodity on both ends of the equation. Following threads takes time, yes, but posting in them takes even more so. In order for the posting volume to go up, which is what this requires, either these changes will cause people to spend more time posting than they otherwise would have, more people to participate than they otherwise would, or people narrowing their focus only discussing a few issues when they otherwise would have discussed more.

If someone only has a few hours in the day to post and they were already filling that time, this isn't likely to cause an increase in their overall post total. Perhaps it will cause the average poster to spend more time here so they can post in all the places they want to post, but the whole premise of your argument seems to stem from insufficient time to read everything they want to read. If people don't have enough time to read all the threads they want to read they probably aren't going to post in all the threads they might otherwise post in.

The second option, more people participating, would be a good thing, so we will leave that alone.

The third one, a greater focus, is interesting but still unsubstantiated. I don't see any particular reason to believe two places they can post will cause them to post on fewer topics. What's more, if everyone has different hot-buttons, which seems to be the case, you would expect an increase in specialization amongst the post base to more or less even out in most cases as people select different foci. I'll grant it could become an issue when a high profile event happens, like the Sandy Hook shooting, but if we are being frank, P&N fills up with dozens of threads different by only the slightest degree anyway.

Sorry, I can't just grant this. Unless you can give me a plausible source for all the extra time required to make the duplicate content for the threads to significantly impact the overall reading volume one has to do, I'm going to have to say your objection seems, while not impossible, at least unlikely. Yes, you will get double the number of threads, roughly, but the overall reading required to follow them probably won't change much.

Which sounds like a great solution for you, and I have no quibble with that. Others may have different preferences, however.
That is going to be true of any solution you care to propose. Some people, such as yourself, would be happy with broad rules and moderator discretion being the dominant guideline in their enforcement. Some people wouldn't like that. Very clearly some people like P&N as it is, as evidenced by them posting the way they do. Your proposed changes would not meet their preferences either.

In all cases a solution for one will not be a solution for everyone.

I agree that if one looks only at the new sub-forum, content should be more concentrated (or to put it another way, the S/N ratio should be better). If one looks at both P&Ns together, however, content will be diluted overall. The issue is where people post unique content. Some will be repeated in both forums, meaning people reading either forum will see it. Other content will appear in only one forum, however. Therefore, reading ALL of the content available will require reading both forums, including wading through not only the usual noise but also the now-duplicated content. Thus, total P&N content will be diluted, at least to some extent.

Each person will have to decided for himself whether it's worth the time and effort to read both forums to see all unique content. That's not the end of the world, but it is a drawback for those who don't want to miss anything.
Perhaps, but I still don't consider it to be overly likely to significantly increase it for the reasons went over above. All the duplicate content takes time to create and adding a subforum won't give them any more time to post there. People will have to pick and choose what they post just like they pick and choose what they read.
Which brings me back to my original point. "While not my preference, the split P&N approach is certainly a viable alternative." I thought this was clear that I wasn't suggesting the sub-forum was unworkable, or even that it was a bad idea. I like the idea, at least as an experiment, even though it isn't my first choice. I was simply responding to the suggestion that it has no drawbacks by pointing out a couple of them. There are pros and cons to everything.

Fair enough. It is often hard to tell when someone is against an idea or merely just pointing out the downsides to an idea where the upsides have already been sufficiently covered when all they focus on are the negatives. If you say you are doing the latter, I have no reason to doubt you.
 
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Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
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I think the concern over duplicated threads is warranted, but now being overstated.

The character of a discussion is just as important as its content. A thread about abortion where people are politely debating concepts such as when life begins or whether Roe v. Wade should be overturned, and a thread where people are screaming names like "babykiller" or "liberty hater" at each other or constantly trying to divert the subject onto "the evils of teen motherhood" -- they are both nominally about abortion, but the similarity ends there.

It's not about duplication, it's about making choices.

I also think the split will not just divide the pie, but expand it. My guess is there are quite a few people on AT who would participate in a civil P&N forum, but have no interest in the current pig sty.
 
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Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
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[ ... ]
All the duplicate content takes time to create and adding a subforum won't give them any more time to post there. People will have to pick and choose what they post just like they pick and choose what they read. ...
Interesting points. I think our fundamental difference is we are looking at this from two different perspectives. You are looking at it from the perspective of those who spend as much time as they can here. Some of them seem to live here, carpet bombing almost every thread with their pearls. Others may have only a very short window each day they can spend here. Either way, their participation is constrained by time. I agree that those people already generate as much material as they can.

I am looking at it from the other end of the spectrum, from the perspective of those whose participation is instead constrained by content. They are selective. They have more time available than is required to read topics that interest them. They have no interest in posting for the sake of posting, but instead post when they have something to say. They may post because they have something unique to add ... or, they may post because they see something they feel compelled to address: an important point, a bit of misinformation, an unfilled gap.

These are the people who (as a group) will be most affected by a split. Topics that interest them will now be repeated in both forums. A point they find important may be covered in one thread, but not in its counterpart in the other forum. Thus, they now create more material than they would in a single, consolidated forum. They now need more time to pursue that subset of P&N that interests them.

Again, we are describing two ends of a spectrum. Most members fall somewhere between the two extremes, where time is but one of many factors that determine how much they read and post here. The net result, I expect, is more duplication of content. And, for one final time, I do NOT consider that a show-stopper. It does NOT mean a sub-forum is a bad idea that shouldn't be considered. I am merely pointing out one drawback to the split approach.

Cheers,
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,897
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I think the concern over duplicated threads is warranted, but now being overstated.

The character of a discussion is just as important as its content. A thread about abortion where people are politely debating concepts such as when life begins or whether Roe v. Wade should be overturned, and a thread where people are screaming names like "babykiller" or "liberty hater" at each other or constantly trying to divert the subject onto "the evils of teen motherhood" -- they are both nominally about abortion, but the similarity ends there.

It's not about duplication, it's about making choices.

I also think the split will not just divide the pie, but expand it. My guess is there are quite a few people on AT who would participate in a civil P&N forum, but have no interest in the current pig sty.

The only real argument I can see against Charles' idea is finding some moderators to run it. If you can do that why not give it a shot?

There's no point in a lot of speculation about how threads would develop or how it would all work. Let's just find out.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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Whether there's a stricter subforum or not, at the very least I'd ask for P&N to have a simple rule. That we are to discuss the topics, not each other. This is a combination of no insults and no derailment.

Case Study - While I agree that the topic / OP is not exactly suitable, and / or is trollish. I firmly believe the replies are just as bad at perpetuating the problem. Bad topics should be ignored or improved with honest and topical responses. Set the correct tone and frame of refrence if the OP is out of line and you wish to reply.

It should be wrong to go eye for an eye with bad topics and bad posts being bumped back to the top of the forum. Leave it to moderators to clear bad characters and bad content. I do not find it healthy for the forum to litter it with our condemnation.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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Ummm No!! Those who are using the duplicated threads argument don`t actually know the forum rules....and are using that as a diversion to have only one P&N forum!!

I have seen duplicated threads(not exactly duplicated and perhaps there would need to be a rule that the person who posts the thread in P&N cannot be the same person who who posts the thread in in OT and P&N!!)!

Especially where the subject matter crossed over between the two forums!

There is nothing wrong with having duplicated threads in both P&N and a P&N subforum....in fact it would be quite easy for the powers that be to allow that in this instance and to put it in writing.

I believe a highy regulated malitia...oopps I mean a highly regulated subforum woiuld be possibly very refreshing and would keep the trolls or mal contents out but would also force some of us who would like to participate to amend our ways in order to post in the sub forum.

Peace!!
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
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Yet another thread where trolling is allowed to go rampant. Either Incorruptible's thread needed to be locked for trolling or those who were trolling in the thread need warnings/infractions. There is no sense in that crap and when moderators do nothing all it does is encourage others to behave in the same manner. We need someone, ANYONE to fucking moderate P&N because right now its just anarchy.

Whats to prevent me from neffing up P&N all day long? Nothing and no one apparently.
 

Charles Kozierok

Elite Member
May 14, 2012
6,762
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I talked earlier about how it's not just personal insults that are a problem here. It's the behaviors that cause them.

Want to see what makes a person feel like using a personal insult? Read this post.

I tried to explain my position rationally. It was completely ignored, then the poster mischaracterized my views, and ended with mocking nonsense.

My first instinct when I read that was to respond with a personal insult. Because what else am I supposed to respond with?

I suppressed that instinct. But I'd like a place to discuss issues where that instinct doesn't come up in nearly EVERY thread.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,688
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I talked earlier about how it's not just personal insults that are a problem here. It's the behaviors that cause them.

Want to see what makes a person feel like using a personal insult? Read this post.

I tried to explain my position rationally. It was completely ignored, then the poster mischaracterized my views, and ended with mocking nonsense.

My first instinct when I read that was to respond with a personal insult. Because what else am I supposed to respond with?

I suppressed that instinct. But I'd like a place to discuss issues where that instinct doesn't come up in nearly EVERY thread.

I suggested a forum in which no put downs would be tolerated so no need to retaliate would arise and no opinions that can't be logically supported be tolerated either. In the post you linked you were insulted and the poster stated that he knew the vacuity of your mind. Since he can't possibly know what you know or do not know, he can't make such a claim. That is an insult to intelligence. But you did identify this person earlier in the thread as somebody who was not rational. He may not know it but it is obvious to others. Trying to have a reasonable discussion means that irrational and unsupportable assumptions should be prohibited. Folk can be an affront to intelligence. If they have to support their irrational thinking they quickly find themselves on the losing side. Essentially, such folk are bullies. They can't reason so they declare. 'I'm right and you are stupid.' Have a place where they have to prove it.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
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I suggested a forum in which no put downs would be tolerated so no need to retaliate would arise and no opinions that can't be logically supported be tolerated either. In the post you linked you were insulted and the poster stated that he knew the vacuity of your mind. Since he can't possibly know what you know or do not know, he can't make such a claim. That is an insult to intelligence. But you did identify this person earlier in the thread as somebody who was not rational. He may not know it but it is obvious to others. Trying to have a reasonable discussion means that irrational and unsupportable assumptions should be prohibited. Folk can be an affront to intelligence. If they have to support their irrational thinking they quickly find themselves on the losing side. Essentially, such folk are bullies. They can't reason so they declare. 'I'm right and you are stupid.' Have a place where they have to prove it.

That's why I suggested that insults must be followed up by facts. We leave the current system in place but add a requirement.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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That's why I suggested that insults must be followed up by facts. We leave the current system in place but add a requirement.

What facts would justify putting people down. Any such facts would have to be accompanied with the unconscious assumption that a put down for those reasons is warranted, would it not? People who humiliate others do so out of self hate, in my opinion. I reflect that self hate back at them and smile when they go crazy. Humiliating others should have a price, if it is going to be tolerated. I don't want that job but I see no moral alternative to attempting not to allowing bullies to proliferate. I find the degradation of others disgusting. There is so much pain in the world. Why allow the hard core mentally ill to pull down kinder softer people. I would like a forum where the haters aren't so welcome. All the lunatic expression of asinine opinion we see in these threads are put there to hurt other people. It's all put down at its core. But I think a lot of people know they would be lost without it and don't want to let go of the vine.
 
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