Re-Opened: The P&N Improvement Association -- Please Read & Contribute

[Incorruptible]

Moonbeam may not swear or scream a lot, but IMO is one of the biggest problem posters on this board.

Flaming generally starts with flamebait, and Moonbeam's constant amateur psychoanalysis is a major impetus for people getting angry and threads going off the rails. There's no way this individual can back up his "diagnoses", and no real way anyone can respond to them other than by getting pissed off.

His constant attempts to portray half the country as being mentally ill are likewise counterproductive and inflammatory.



Personally, I'd rather be sweared at than listen to that.

Any effort to deal with the problems in this place must be holistic and address the causes, not just the symptoms.

Agree with what you said, I have learned to just skip over his posts but not everyone will do that. When you have a poster who insults HALF THE COUNTRY then there is something wrong. He is definitely not the only one and the others need to be called out who only come here to attack the other side but not to debate.

 

[Moonbeam]

I do. Anyone who claims to have the intelligence to psychoanalyze others should also be smart enough to know that calling people stupid or crazy is insulting, even if you dress it up with flowery language.

M: Where do I claim that intelligence is the key to knowing other people? Your statement says to me your intellectually competitive and see me as some sort of threat. I only claim that to know others is only a matter of knowing oneself and that I have does something or other in that area. I did so by grace and through no talent of my own that I can see. The best I can say is that my Mother wanted me to be honest but, of course, not as honest as I turned out.

CK: Please read post #95 and tell me honestly that he was not trying to insult people. Yes, please do and tell me where I was insulting:

Somebody threatened this person's ego beliefs. He responded as many people do who believe they are under threat. He was confronted with what he considers a dangerous lie, that if believed by a voting majority would take from him his personal safety. How is being threatened by a lie you believe anything but normal sense? How, if what I say is true did the truth become an insult?) His answer was on an emotional level completely honest and exactly how he feels. In reality, he is insane. (Again a complement on reacting with good sense to a threat except the threat isn't real. Where is the insult in fact?) These two facts are difficult to resolve. Mad men lash out but it is by their actions that we know them to be mad. (A good thing because it can lead to treatment. How is that an insult.) We can treat none who are insane for insanity until they let us know their condition. (Other words for the same good thing) But we have an obligation, I think, to the person to whom this tirade was directed, to protect him or her if he or she feels intimidated. (The other side of the dilemma, how to protect the person attacked. Is concern for others an attack?) The world demands that we control ourselves, but in psychotherapy it is very necessary to come out with our madness. We are likely all on different levels as to what we can handle. (Reasons why the forum is different things to different people?)

Personally, the above post doesn't bother me because I already know this is how 'gun nuts' feel and what they will say to me if I attack the validity of their religion. (In short, I am for the gun nut coming out with his gun nuttery. I put it in quotes as short hand for the phenomenon that everybody would understand, a stereotype for brevity's sake but quoted to indicate a typing, not a put down.) Guns are just another of the many palliatives for self hate, a delusional feeling we have some control over our fate, that we can protect ourselves as adults from what happened to us as children. But the damage is already done and guns can't save us from the feelings we have repressed. Of course, the 'gun nut' will not welcome my view of his condition, but he will hear his real truth, most likely, nowhere else. (Good news for the 'gun nut'. There is hope fro him from me. I am a mirror who can show him what he can't see. I know he won't like it but it doesn't bother me. I want to help 'gun nuts, not put them down. I can't avoid the fact the truth will awaken old rage.) For these and similar reasons I react to these kinds of vicious outbursts as opportunities, not sins. (Again, I have nothing against 'gun nuts' expressing their emotions of contempt. I want to help them get some real relief. But the road to heaven goes right through hell. Not my fault. It's how it is.)


Hasn't been my experience. In fact, he's one of the few people I do keep on ignore around here, because even though I agree with him on many actual viewpoints, after a while, every post is the same, and few of them contribute to the topic at hand. There is one big truth that involves everything and is always denied. You may get bored with that fact but if you commit yourself to helping people see, you will have to show them the same facts over and over. Not my fault, again, that you and others are like that. Don't bitch to me about it. You have the reigns.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

M: An alternate explanation is that truth is flamebait and every time you hear it you get angry and go off the rails.

You are pontificating about others' mental states. So you have no "truth", just your opinion.

It wouldn't be truth if it had any other effect, but you have to know something to know that.

A rather obvious logical fallacy, since people routinely get angry when people make false statements about them. It's why the tort of defamation exists -- look it up sometime.

You limit yourself by your assumptions as to what is or isn't possible.

No, I do not. There are only two possibilities here:
1. You are a licensed mental health professional, in which case you should be investigated by your licensing board for attempting to diagnose strangers over the Internet; or
2. Your psychobabble is a load of BS designed solely to piss people off.

That's it. #2 is the rather obvious option here, of course.

You get pissed off, but I provide reasons as to why you do.

I don't get pissed off; I have you on ignore, because what you write is not worth reading. But other people do get pissed off, and it leads to acrimony and flamewars. That's what this thread is about, which is the only reason I'm responding to you.

And no, you don't provide reasons for any of your accusations. You talk a lot, and once in a while you make reference to a controversial study that you seem to regard like a holy book. That's it.

I can explain why you get pissed off. And the reasons are simple. You don't know what you feel. But you also don't know that you don't know because you can't know what you don't know. You can't think what you feel. You have to feel it. You can't imagine what this amateur psychologist has been through to know something about this. You are ignorant beyond measure compared to me and only one of us has the experience to see it. I wouldn't blow you off like this if you weren't so presumptuous. The truth is concealed by its immediately unlikeliness.

A perfect example of what I was talking about before. Pure flamebait.

You are trying to teach pigs to fly and in this thread express your frustration.

No, I want the pigs to go wallow in a private pen away from the rest of us, so we can interact like adults. You include yourself in the former group through your behavior.

I tell you that you know nothing and are you affected?

You know basically nothing about me, and I'm less private that most people here. The others you presume to talk about you generally know *nothing* about, except that they have different views than you, which you then presumes gives you the right to "diagnose" them.

I think you want to argue the value of this or that political idea. I want to illustrate why people can't see real value for themselves.

What you want to do is denigrate and dismiss everyone on the right end of the political spectrum, while couching it in ten-dollar-words so people are fooled into thinking you know what you're talking about. You don't.

Your statement says to me your intellectually competitive and see me as some sort of threat.

I don't see you as any sort of a threat. I see your constant flamebaiting as a major source of contention in this forum.

 

[Moonbeam]

Agree with what you said, I have learned to just skip over his posts but not everyone will do that. When you have a poster who insults HALF THE COUNTRY then there is something wrong. He is definitely not the only one and the others need to be called out who only come here to attack the other side but not to debate.

Hehehe, this is so funny. I have a thread where 16 peer review scientific papers were listed showing the differences between conservative and liberal thinkers, all the way from real physical differences to morality and reasoning differences, the ability to be affected by fear vs logic, etc, and which indicate as a scientific fact that conservatives live in an altered reality bubble and can't functionally reason. There is no debate about which side can't do science and lives in denial. There is no getting you out of your bubble, friend. Facts are not an attack. How you react to truth can make you feel attacked. You are like a person with a huge sore toe you leave out in the aisle to be stepped on by inevitability. The whole point of this thread, I think, is to find a way to deal with the fundamental irrationality and refusal of, especially conservatives, not to deal with reason but rationalize, divert, and insult, etc, as an alternative. You are a walking insult to yourself. you are lost without this understanding. You are offended because you are offensive and offensive because you're offended. Puke and live or choke on your puss. It's where you are and those are your options.

So what kind of forum do you want? That I think is the question being asked. Tell me you don't want an alternate reality bubble where you never have no challenge to your delusional state. Many want you banned, it seems. I do not. I have no hope for you. I have nothing more to lose. I gave up all hope for folk like you and that's why I never give up. You cost me nothing to try to help you. I have already written off my efforts and any hope for you. But you just might surprise me.

I want one in which your ridiculous bigotry has to be defended to show you you can't, one in which you can't put others down because you hurt. I don't mind at all what you say to me, but I want you to choke on what you would say to others. I would have you thrown in the deep end where you will sink like a stone. Remember, My Dear Fellow Human Being, I will be forced to be nice to you if you are forced to be nice to me. It will be great, I can feel it.

 

[Moonbeam]

You are pontificating about others' mental states. So you have no "truth", just your opinion.



A rather obvious logical fallacy, since people routinely get angry when people make false statements about them. It's why the tort of defamation exists -- look it up sometime.



No, I do not. There are only two possibilities here:
1. You are a licensed mental health professional, in which case you should be investigated by your licensing board for attempting to diagnose strangers over the Internet; or
2. Your psychobabble is a load of BS designed solely to piss people off.

That's it. #2 is the rather obvious option here, of course.



I don't get pissed off; I have you on ignore, because what you write is not worth reading. But other people do get pissed off, and it leads to acrimony and flamewars. That's what this thread is about, which is the only reason I'm responding to you.

And no, you don't provide reasons for any of your accusations. You talk a lot, and once in a while you make reference to a controversial study that you seem to regard like a holy book. That's it.



A perfect example of what I was talking about before. Pure flamebait.



No, I want the pigs to go wallow in a private pen away from the rest of us, so we can interact like adults. You include yourself in the former group through your behavior.



You know basically nothing about me, and I'm less private that most people here. The others you presume to talk about you generally know *nothing* about, except that they have different views than you, which you then presumes gives you the right to "diagnose" them.



What you want to do is denigrate and dismiss everyone on the right end of the political spectrum, while couching it in ten-dollar-words so people are fooled into thinking you know what you're talking about. You don't.



I don't see you as any sort of a threat. I see your constant flamebaiting as a major source of contention in this forum.

Some other time, perhaps. My interest here is a dialog about how to improve the forum. I am of no importance.

 

[alzan]

I do. Anyone who claims to have the intelligence to psychoanalyze others should also be smart enough to know that calling people stupid or crazy is insulting, even if you dress it up with flowery language.

Please read post #95 and tell me honestly that he was not trying to insult people.



Hasn't been my experience. In fact, he's one of the few people I do keep on ignore around here, because even though I agree with him on many actual viewpoints, after a while, every post is the same, and few of them contribute to the topic at hand.

Jackstar7, you're greatly overstating the value of the ignore tool in this software. All it takes is one or two people to engage the trolls, and a thread is history. I have on many occasions even asked people to stop responding to them, and they refuse, because they consider it "fun" to flame back and forth with someone who isn't actually serious about the topic. While they are having their "fun", the thread is ruined for everyone else.

If it really comes down to people caring more about flaming than sensible discussion, then please split the group or something.

I read it, again; I honestly don't see it as insulting. I think some people might read it as insulting but some of that may be due to confirmational bias.

I'm circumspective enough that were I conservative and had read some of Moonie's posts/threads that "insulted" half the country that I would think about what he was trying to say. Whatever the topic I mostly find his posts thought-provoking; I may not understand all that he says but I take from it what value I can, as I do with all posters whose replies/threads I watch for. I didn't lurk this forum for years for no reason.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Moonbeam's constant amateur psychoanalysis

He's no amateur.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You are pontificating about others' mental states. So you have no "truth", just your opinion.



A rather obvious logical fallacy, since people routinely get angry when people make false statements about them. It's why the tort of defamation exists -- look it up sometime.



No, I do not. There are only two possibilities here:
1. You are a licensed mental health professional, in which case you should be investigated by your licensing board for attempting to diagnose strangers over the Internet; or
2. Your psychobabble is a load of BS designed solely to piss people off.

That's it. #2 is the rather obvious option here, of course.



I don't get pissed off; I have you on ignore, because what you write is not worth reading. But other people do get pissed off, and it leads to acrimony and flamewars. That's what this thread is about, which is the only reason I'm responding to you.

And no, you don't provide reasons for any of your accusations. You talk a lot, and once in a while you make reference to a controversial study that you seem to regard like a holy book. That's it.



A perfect example of what I was talking about before. Pure flamebait.



No, I want the pigs to go wallow in a private pen away from the rest of us, so we can interact like adults. You include yourself in the former group through your behavior.



You know basically nothing about me, and I'm less private that most people here. The others you presume to talk about you generally know *nothing* about, except that they have different views than you, which you then presumes gives you the right to "diagnose" them.



What you want to do is denigrate and dismiss everyone on the right end of the political spectrum, while couching it in ten-dollar-words so people are fooled into thinking you know what you're talking about. You don't.



I don't see you as any sort of a threat. I see your constant flamebaiting as a major source of contention in this forum.

Excellent rebuttal that's spot on in every aspect.

 

[JEDIYoda]

I feel sorry for CharlesKozierok!!
He is so vuilnerable to somebody like Moonbeam!! Moony is able to push all the right buttons but essentially abide 100% by the rules!!
I approve of what Moonbeam says!!

 

[Moonbeam]

EDIT: I'd like to add that this place will never be a forum for good debate. It is impossible unless a team of highly trained debate mods are acquired. So if you think removing insults will get you your utopia, well you have a better chance of removing every last gun from the general population.

I would get rid of insults for the sole purpose of getting rid of insults. It doesn't have to create utopia as far as I am concerned. Where I find a bully I will apply torment. I don't want that job. Give me a put down free forum. Ban folk who call people names and insult them. There will be no feelings of need for retaliation if there is no provocation.

Also ban posts like this: "Excellent rebuttal that's spot on in every aspect." In the first place I stated I would not respond to that post so the poster here is something of a coward, pilling on after the fact. But the important point is that it is a total expression of his opinion without one fact or example to back it up. Where is the potential to refute what you say when you actually say nothing but your opinion. In my opinion you are a moron and an asshole, small minded and immature. Did you profit from that? Every point I made was perfectly you, no? Try to grow up.

 

[Incorruptible]

Hehehe, this is so funny. I have a thread where 16 peer review scientific papers were listed showing the differences between conservative and liberal thinkers, all the way from real physical differences to morality and reasoning differences, the ability to be affected by fear vs logic, etc, and which indicate as a scientific fact that conservatives live in an altered reality bubble and can't functionally reason. There is no debate about which side can't do science and lives in denial. There is no getting you out of your bubble, friend. Facts are not an attack. How you react to truth can make you feel attacked. You are like a person with a huge sore toe you leave out in the aisle to be stepped on by inevitability. The whole point of this thread, I think, is to find a way to deal with the fundamental irrationality and refusal of, especially conservatives, not to deal with reason but rationalize, divert, and insult, etc, as an alternative. You are a walking insult to yourself. you are lost without this understanding. You are offended because you are offensive and offensive because you're offended. Puke and live or choke on your puss. It's where you are and those are your options.

So what kind of forum do you want? That I think is the question being asked. Tell me you don't want an alternate reality bubble where you never have no challenge to your delusional state. Many want you banned, it seems. I do not. I have no hope for you. I have nothing more to lose. I gave up all hope for folk like you and that's why I never give up. You cost me nothing to try to help you. I have already written off my efforts and any hope for you. But you just might surprise me.

I want one in which your ridiculous bigotry has to be defended to show you you can't, one in which you can't put others down because you hurt. I don't mind at all what you say to me, but I want you to choke on what you would say to others. I would have you thrown in the deep end where you will sink like a stone. Remember, My Dear Fellow Human Being, I will be forced to be nice to you if you are forced to be nice to me. It will be great, I can feel it.

Every time I see your posts I just ignore them along with certain other users, I am way too busy to read your posts

 

[Charles Kozierok]

I would get rid of insults for the sole purpose of getting rid of insults.
...
In my opinion you are a moron and an asshole, small minded and immature.

...

 

[Moonbeam]

I feel sorry for CharlesKozierok!!
He is so vuilnerable to somebody like Moonbeam!! Moony is able to push all the right buttons but essentially abide 100% by the rules!!
I approve of what Moonbeam says!!

Hehe, I'm hoping that in the new forum where we deal only in truth and light with no horrible put downs and no unsupported opinions, he will have a chance to see a different and better me. Of course, he may just see the same old worthless asshole he already sees. Still, I have hope.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Hehe, I'm hoping that in the new forum where we deal only in truth and light with no horrible put downs and no unsupported opinions, he will have a chance to see a different and better me. Of course, he may just see the same old worthless asshole he already sees. Still, I have hope.

Since we construct the meaning of our reality within inter-subjective discursive spaces; it seems clear to me that a requirement of positivity will not only change the tenor of discussion, but the meaning people make of themselves.

 

[boomerang]

Well, I see the thread is going well...

I'd be curious to know how many posts within this very thread have been reported.

 

[Perknose]

Ok, I'm locking this thread for now while I think about what to do regarding how this, too, degenerated into a inter-member attack thread.

It almost makes me weep. It certainly makes me feel frustrated.

Ugh.

Perknose
Forum Director

 

[Perknose]

Ok, I am reopening this thread. The following posters are on notice that the next time they personally attack another poster here, they will be summarily vacationed:

monovillage, dmcowen674 dank69, CrackRabbit, CharlesKozierok, Incorruptible, Londo Jowo, jackstar7, JEDIYoda.

Some of the above acted more egregiously than some others, but each of you contravened my warning to some degree. Some of you will feel you didn't act that badly. I don't care.

Frankly, I don't have the highest of hopes for this thread going forward, but the effort still needs to be made. I sincerely hope you all prove me wrong!

 

[Charles Kozierok]

Guilty as charged.

I don't think there's any point in discussing how to improve this place without addressing the deliberate, systematic ill behavior of a handful of posters. You don't want that, then fine, it won't happen. (That said, I don't see how it is that Moonbeam didn't make your list.)

My main advice to you on this is the same as it's always been -- the Nike motto. "Just Do It". Pick one or two reasonably moderate moderators, have them come up with some reasonable but generic rules along the lines of "be rational and don't act like an asshole", and then let them clean the place up.

Forums are a classic example of the Pareto rule: 90% of the problems are caused by 10% of the posters. Ban or rehabilitate a few people and you'll be stunned at how little work remains. People who are reasonable will just need the occasional steering back on course, just like you guys do in the tech forums.

And one more thing: a point that was raised in a prior version of this thread. There are people here who do not engage in personal attacks but still contribute to making the place a three-ring circus by derailing threads onto their pet topics, and by engaging in the same arguments over and over again without ever addressing counter-arguments. They are just as much to blame for the problems as the people they infuriate into losing their tempers.

 

[dank69]

...

My main advice to you on this is the same as it's always been -- the Nike motto. "Just Do It". Pick one or two reasonably moderate moderators, have them come up with some reasonable but generic rules along the lines of "be rational and don't act like an asshole", and then let them clean the place up.

Forums are a classic example of the Pareto rule: 90% of the problems are caused by 10% of the posters. Ban or rehabilitate a few people and you'll be stunned at how little work remains. People who are reasonable will just need the occasional steering back on course, just like you guys do in the tech forums.

And one more thing: a point that was raised in a prior version of this thread. There are people here who do not engage in personal attacks but still contribute to making the place a three-ring circus by derailing threads onto their pet topics, and by engaging in the same arguments over and over again without ever addressing counter-arguments. They are just as much to blame for the problems as the people they infuriate into losing their tempers.

I pretty much agree with all this. There is no shame in being biased against stupidity.

 

[Ausm]

I think this Forum is a Microcosm of how divided our Nation is politically. Sad but true.

 

[Perknose]

I would indeed agree with you about the troll posts, not about the mods. If the job is too difficult, time consuming, or simply a pain in the ass, it's easy enough to stop doing it. There are any number of people that would be happy to join the team, and donate their spare time to the forum.

Are you one of this "any number of people?" Are you willing to make the time and integrity commitment to becoming a moderator here, and to follow through?

If so, pm me and we will explore this possibility.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Guilty as charged.

I don't think there's any point in discussing how to improve this place without addressing the deliberate, systematic ill behavior of a handful of posters. You don't want that, then fine, it won't happen. (That said, I don't see how it is that Moonbeam didn't make your list.)

My main advice to you on this is the same as it's always been -- the Nike motto. "Just Do It". Pick one or two reasonably moderate moderators, have them come up with some reasonable but generic rules along the lines of "be rational and don't act like an asshole", and then let them clean the place up.

Forums are a classic example of the Pareto rule: 90% of the problems are caused by 10% of the posters. Ban or rehabilitate a few people and you'll be stunned at how little work remains. People who are reasonable will just need the occasional steering back on course, just like you guys do in the tech forums.

And one more thing: a point that was raised in a prior version of this thread. There are people here who do not engage in personal attacks but still contribute to making the place a three-ring circus by derailing threads onto their pet topics, and by engaging in the same arguments over and over again without ever addressing counter-arguments. They are just as much to blame for the problems as the people they infuriate into losing their tempers.

I think this Forum is a Microcosm of how divided our Nation is politically. Sad but true.

I agree with both of these things.
The second is going to take a lot more to fix than the first.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Ok, I am reopening this thread. The following posters are on notice that the next time they personally attack another poster here, they will be summarily vacationed:

monovillage, dmcowen674 dank69, CrackRabbit, CharlesKozierok, Incorruptible, Londo Jowo, jackstar7, JEDIYoda.

Some of the above acted more egregiously than some others, but each of you contravened my warning to some degree. Some of you will feel you didn't act that badly. I don't care.

Frankly, I don't have the highest of hopes for this thread going forward, but the effort still needs to be made. I sincerely hope you all prove me wrong!

No problem Perk, your warning is duly noted. I've never had an issue with you or your moderation in this forum and as you know even sent you a PM if I felt you overreacted to a given poster.


Again I find myself agreeing with another post by CharlesKozierok:

Guilty as charged.

I don't think there's any point in discussing how to improve this place without addressing the deliberate, systematic ill behavior of a handful of posters. You don't want that, then fine, it won't happen. (That said, I don't see how it is that Moonbeam didn't make your list.)

My main advice to you on this is the same as it's always been -- the Nike motto. "Just Do It". Pick one or two reasonably moderate moderators, have them come up with some reasonable but generic rules along the lines of "be rational and don't act like an asshole", and then let them clean the place up.

Forums are a classic example of the Pareto rule: 90% of the problems are caused by 10% of the posters. Ban or rehabilitate a few people and you'll be stunned at how little work remains. People who are reasonable will just need the occasional steering back on course, just like you guys do in the tech forums.

And one more thing: a point that was raised in a prior version of this thread. There are people here who do not engage in personal attacks but still contribute to making the place a three-ring circus by derailing threads onto their pet topics, and by engaging in the same arguments over and over again without ever addressing counter-arguments. They are just as much to blame for the problems as the people they infuriate into losing their tempers.

There's got to be away to reign in the troublemakers while encouraging spirited debate that doesn't include personal attacks or insults. We need to get rid of the "Ban Him", "Don't Feed The Troll" posts with or without pics that state the same thing. If you don't like the thread or a post..........report it if it's out of line or don't post anything that just bumps the thread to the top yet again.

 

[CrackRabbit]

No problem Perk, your warning is duly noted. I've never had an issue with you or your moderation in this forum and as you know even sent you a PM if I felt you overreacted to a given poster.


Again I find myself agreeing with another post by CharlesKozierok:



There's got to be away to reign in the troublemakers while encouraging spirited debate that doesn't include personal attacks or insults. We need to get rid of the "Ban Him", "Don't Feed The Troll" posts with or without pics that state the same thing. If you don't like the thread or a post..........report it if it's out of line or don't post anything that just bumps the thread to the top yet again.

Simpler solution, get rid of the trolls and you won't get posts like that.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I guess I could deselect the "Show Images (including attached images and images in code)" in my User CP as well as using the ignore function and I wouldn't have to see either the troll or the pics.

Then again it may cause me to miss picture or chart I want to view. Based on that posting "Ban Him" and "Don't Feed The Troll" pics should be against forum rules.