Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

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Hulk

Hulk

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Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.
 
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Carfax83

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Elfear said:
They were both run at DDR5-6000 in the Tech Deals review and the AMD was run at CL30 and the Intel at CL32. You are using rather inflammatory language ("crippling Intel") for a difference that is miniscule.

13900k at DDR5-6000 (CL36) vs DDR5-7400 (CL34). Source <1% difference...

View attachment 74638
Click to expand...

That review was done with an RTX 3080, which makes it completely GPU bottlenecked. In the rush to find evidence to support their claims, people are posting all sorts of graphs and what not without looking at the test setup.

Memory benches in gaming will only show yields in CPU bound scenarios.
 
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lopri

lopri

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Hulk said:
Good points. But actually the E's are already a thorn in Intel's side. Without them, on a 10nm monolithic die only about 12 P's would fit and that CPU would have unconditionally yielded the high end to AMD regardless of how many watts Intel forced down it's throat! AMD would be sitting all alone at the top with a $700 top of the line part while Intel would have been under the table looking for scraps.

Now in reality we know that gaming benchmarks would have been about the same and even many applications, but heavily threaded applications would have been decisively AMD dominated if Intel had no implemented 8+16 when they did.

The bottom line fact is that there aren't a lot of applications that use more than 8 cores but less than 16, which AMD currently has an edge. So if for example Intel simply went 8+32 they would be at nearly 60,000 CB R23 points with no architectural changes. Even if they weren't going tiles they could most likely fit that on Intel 4. The AREA efficiency of Gracemont can't be underestimated.

Anyway it's a good race of it for Intel and AMD currently and good (and fun) for us to be able enjoy the parts and the discussion surrounding them. If Intel should stumble next round I'll go AMD. Since I had already gone with Alder Lake it was easy for me to pop in the 13900K so that's what I did. But I'm totally open to giving AMD a shot next time if they put up another outstanding lineup like they have done for the last 3 generations.
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Totally this. E-cores are a brilliant marketing strategy. And AMD has to respond.
 
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Carfax83

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DrMrLordX said:
His system is at something like 6500 MT/s, what're you on about? In any case it's the bandwidth and latency that matters in the end. If Raphael is putting up good numbers within the limits of its IMC, then bully for them.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but let's be honest here. This is @Det0x. The guy is a World class tweaker and overclocker. His system isn't going to be representative of what the average Zen 4 system is capable of.

The timings he's using at 7ghz suggests water cooled memory, as they are extremely aggressive, and I can imagine what he's cooling the CPU with.

At any rate, If Zen 4 were generally capable of running 7ghz DDR5, then AMD would have made sure reviewers knew about it and there would be EXPO kits available for sale. Most Zen 4 setups are going to top out at probably 6000/6200 MT/s in 1:1 ratio mode, and this is reflected in the available kits for sale.
 
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MarkPost

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Carfax83 said:
That review was done with an RTX 3080, which makes it completely GPU bottlenecked. In the rush to find evidence to support their claims, people are posting all sorts of graphs and what not without looking at the test setup.

Memory benches in gaming will only show yields in CPU bound scenarios.
Click to expand...

This is @1280x720

1673793048125.png

RTX 3080 is bottlenecking?
 
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Timmah!

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On topic of this perceived superiority of RPL over Zen4 in RT workloads in some games, well pretty much the Superman ones, given the Carfax´s idea that this is down to BVH construction on CPU, i tried to look into and google something tangible, that could either support or refute that idea, and found this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/mg8w8r
https://www.reddit.com/r/GraphicsProgramming/comments/duckv3

nothing thats explicitly written there IMO gives conclusive answer, at least i dont see it as a layman in these things, still find it interesting. So it seems BVH can be built both on GPU and CPU, though under RTX/DXR under DX12 its done on GPU. Under Vulkan there is a choice apparently, can be done on either one.
 
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Hulk

Hulk

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Ha! I doubt it. They're going to send a replacement as soon as they have one in stock. They said at least 4 weeks.

I also had a Samsung TV fail on me recently. Check out this one. 65" Q90T I could on a good Amazon sale for $998. It's a 2020 model but has local dimming. I bought it last March and it just died on me. Called Samsung and they said I'm out of warranty. Send them the Amazon receipt and they update the warranty. Then they said they don't have this part and don't know when the availability will be. I said I can wait. They said fine but if the part/repair takes longer than March when my 1 year warranty is up then I'm out of luck for any warranty service. But, they will reimburse me the purchase price of the TV. I questioned this policy as I told them I'd really rather have the TV repaired, I can wait. You see I got a really good deal and can't buy as a good a TV right now for that money. Long story short they wouldn't not budge. They are picking up the TV on Wednesday and then sending payment. I tried hard to tell them to just reimburse me and leave the TV and I'll go away a happy customer. No dice. I'm sure I can fix that TV for $200. I know the back light and LCD work, it's just one of the 3 motherboards. Oh well. Shopping for a new TV...
 
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Markfw

Markfw

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Mopetar

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LG OLEDs are pretty great. I bought one a while back and have enjoyed the hell out of it. The quantum dot technology has supposedly matured to where it can provide an edge, but there have been a lot of videos about using the LG C-series TVs as monitors.

85" might be a bit excessive though.
 
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AdamK47

AdamK47

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Markfw said:
I have the 85 inch OLED. I got it a while back, it was $2400 then. Its a great TV
Click to expand...
What 85" OLED would that be? Until Samsung entered the game last year there have only been LG manufactured panels. None of them 85".

Are you thinking QLED? Those came in 85". Very different panels. Far from being OLED.
 
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Markfw

Markfw

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AdamK47 said:
What 85" OLED would that be? Until Samsung entered the game last year there have only been LG manufactured panels. None of them 85".

Are you thinking QLED? Those came in 85". Very different panels. Far from being OLED.
Click to expand...
I got it last year, it is samsung...How can I ID it using the remote ????
 
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AdamK47

AdamK47

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Markfw said:
I got it last year, it is samsung...How can I ID it using the remote ????
Click to expand...
Then it's still a traditional LCD panel with LED backlighting using Samsung's QLED branding. 2022 was the first year for Samsung OLED with their largest being 65". For 2023 they will have 77" as their largest OLED.
 
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Carfax83

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Timmah! said:
nothing thats explicitly written there IMO gives conclusive answer, at least i dont see it as a layman in these things, still find it interesting. So it seems BVH can be built both on GPU and CPU, though under RTX/DXR under DX12 its done on GPU. Under Vulkan there is a choice apparently, can be done on either one.
Click to expand...

I've heard it both ways as well. It's difficult for laymen like us to extract truth from these kinds of excerpts. When I did my research, it seemed that the CPU does the initialization and maintenance for the BVH structures, but building the BVH structures seemed to me like it was done on the GPU for the most part.

Of course this will vary a lot. I know that World of Tanks uses Intel Embree to accelerate BVH building and traversal.
 
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coercitiv

coercitiv

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Hulk said:
Oh well. Shopping for a new TV...
Click to expand...
Think of it the other way around, you got to have a TV for free in the last 2 years. The timing for a replacement purchase isn't ideal, but it's not bad either. If you want a similarly good deal then aim for an older model (i think the 2023 models are not out yet). If Samsung is still your brand of choice, see if you can find a QN90 for a decent price. It's the next model after yours, and IIRC comes with mini LED backlight (essentially much higher dimming zone count).

The QN90 would be my benchmark option if I had to buy a new TV today, though this time Sony and others might offer something better, especially as I'd rather have Google TV over Tizen. Last time Sony lost my money due to not having proper gaming support. Funny enough, I also have a Q90T which I bought for an excellent price. If it wants to crap out on me, it better do it now while still covered under warranty.
 
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Hulk

Hulk

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coercitiv said:
Think of it the other way around, you got to have a TV for free in the last 2 years. The timing for a replacement purchase isn't ideal, but it's not bad either. If you want a similarly good deal then aim for an older model (i think the 2023 models are not out yet). If Samsung is still your brand of choice, see if you can find a QN90 for a decent price. It's the next model after yours, and IIRC comes with mini LED backlight (essentially much higher dimming zone count).

The QN90 would be my benchmark option if I had to buy a new TV today, though this time Sony and others might offer something better, especially as I'd rather have Google TV over Tizen. Last time Sony lost my money due to not having proper gaming support. Funny enough, I also have a Q90T which I bought for an excellent price. If it wants to crap out on me, it better do it now while still covered under warranty.
Click to expand...

The Q90T is pretty darn good at the price point right? And yes, I realize I got the use of the TV, which is a normally very high depreciation item, and then got my money back. Luckily this is a basement HT TV so I can wait for a good deal. I have a 39" sitting around unused that can fill in for a while. While I really like the pop of local dimming LED I might go with a 77" OLED since in that dark environment OLED would be fine from a brightness point of view.

It's kind of interesting how all of us around here are quite wise and aligned when it comes to tech purchases in general. I guess it should be expected though.
 
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igor_kavinski

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Hulk said:
While I really like the pop of local dimming LED I might go with a 77" OLED since in that dark environment OLED would be fine from a brightness point of view.

It's kind of interesting how all of us around here are quite wise and aligned when it comes to tech purchases in general. I guess it should be expected though.
Click to expand...
The "infinite" contrast of OLED can be stunning and breathtaking at the same time, in the right dark scenes.

I went through three 4K LEDs before I settled on an OLED:

LG 43 inch that did not support HDR, before I even knew what HDR was. Damn thing failed one month after warranty expired.

Then a $600 LG 4K 3D LED with amazing colors and picture quality but edge lit dimming (distracting as hell in dark scenes).

Sony X900E. Great picture quality. Acceptable full array local dimming with maybe just 20 zones but the panel had trouble with the color red. It looked unreal and wayyy too saturated and vibrant than other colors.

Finally, settled on the LG C8 OLED. The only model of its time with close to 1000 nits max brightness in highlights. The latter models had it reduced to 800 nits or so. Possibly the 2023 models will again hit 1000 nits or more.
 
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