Question Raptor Lake - Official Thread

[Hulk]

Since we already have the first Raptor Lake leak I'm thinking it should have it's own thread.
What do we know so far?
From Anandtech's Intel Process Roadmap articles from July:

Built on Intel 7 with upgraded FinFET
10-15% PPW (performance-per-watt)
Last non-tiled consumer CPU as Meteor Lake will be tiled

I'm guessing this will be a minor update to ADL with just a few microarchitecture changes to the cores. The larger change will be the new process refinement allowing 8+16 at the top of the stack.

Will it work with current z690 motherboards? If yes then that could be a major selling point for people to move to ADL rather than wait.

 

[nicalandia]

Not surprising since Raptor was only a thing because Meteor Lake was not ready on time.

At 65-88 Watts limit this CPU will have a difficult task against Zen4

 

[deasd]

Interesting. With AMD's price cut on the 7950X vs 5950X (launch, not current), it possibly forced Intel's hand with the 13900k.

I smell a price war coming even it's just initial launch from both side.

Raptor lake will dominate on all levels i3 to i7's 🏅

see the post at #2124 which leak i5-13400 GB5, Not only MT but also ST perf is worrisome.

 

[nicalandia]

Another Rebranded ADL CPU.

SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XFH - Geekbench

Benchmark results for a SAMSUNG ELECTRONICS CO., LTD. 960XFH with an Intel CoreT i7-13700H processor.

browser.geekbench.com

 

[Hitman928]

Comparing RPL and Zen 4 pricing:

7950X ($699) -> 13900K ($660)
7900X ($549) -> 13700K ($450)
7700X ($399) -> 13600K ($330)
7600X ($299) -> 13500? ($269?)

I think the top and bottom of the range, Intel is offering products at a smaller price, but I think the value will still be in AMD's corner (I'm obviously assuming performance, we'll see after actual reviews). The middle of the stack though, I think the 13700K and 13600K will offer better overall value than the 7900X and 7700X. The question in terms of market response will be in gaming performance, IMO. We've already seen that the 7600X keeps pretty close to a 12900K on average in gaming. If, say, the 13600K falls back a little bit, I think a good amount of people will go for the 7600X despite the significantly higher productivity performance of the 13600K.

Now, in this price range, I think the vast majority of people will be GPU limited anyway, but that usually doesn't seem to matter. People don't seem to think in those terms when they see the review benchmarks showing a difference between CPUs that they'd never see in real life with their mid-tier GPUs when they turn up the settings as high as they can and become GPU bottlenecked. Either way, it's nice that both companies now have competitive offerings. Hopefully the competition leads to lower prices sooner than later.

 

[nicalandia]

Comparing RPL and Zen 4 pricing:

7950X ($699) -> 13900K ($660)
7900X ($549) -> 13700K ($450)

The 7900X is shaping out to be a very Powerful CPU, beating the 12900K and 13700K in ST and MT performance

Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X670E AORUS MASTER vs Z690 Steel Legend WiFi 6E - Geekbench

 

[moinmoin]

Another Rebranded ADL CPU.

Isn't the full fat 8 P-cores + 16 E-cores die the only true RPL die? If so will it find a way into mobile? As what model? Everything else necessarily has to be rebranded ADL dies.

 

[Abwx]

Comparing RPL and Zen 4 pricing:

7950X ($699) -> 13900K ($660)
7900X ($549) -> 13700K ($450)
7700X ($399) -> 13600K ($330)
7600X ($299) -> 13500? ($269?)

I think the top and bottom of the range, Intel is offering products at a smaller price, but I think the value will still be in AMD's corner (I'm obviously assuming performance, we'll see after actual reviews). The middle of the stack though, I think the 13700K and 13600K will offer better overall value than the 7900X and 7700X. The question in terms of market response will be in gaming performance, IMO. We've already seen that the 7600X keeps pretty close to a 12900K on average in gaming. If, say, the 13600K falls back a little bit, I think a good amount of people will go for the 7600X despite the significantly higher productivity performance of the 13600K.

Now, in this price range, I think the vast majority of people will be GPU limited anyway, but that usually doesn't seem to matter. People don't seem to think in those terms when they see the review benchmarks showing a difference between CPUs that they'd never see in real life with their mid-tier GPUs when they turn up the settings as high as they can and become GPU bottlenecked. Either way, it's nice that both companies now have competitive offerings. Hopefully the competition leads to lower prices sooner than later.

Intel prices were set according to expected perfs, if they had say 10% better advantage on the top SKU they would had priced it something like 20% more than the competing offering.

Here they priced the 13900K according to an expected perf gap and on a linear fashion respectively to a 7950X.

Lower on the stack the 7900X should perform 10-15% better than a 13700K, that s why the latter is priced significantly below the AMD counterpart.

The 13600K is the only one that has no equivalent in AMD s portfolio, throughput wise it s equivalent to 10 P cores, but it s disadvantaged in gaming since it can boast only 6 strong threads comparatively to the 7700X s 8, here all depend of the main usage.

Intel will surely release a 4 + 8 configuration, that would be competitive throughput wise with a 7700X and even more with a 7600X, but once more it will be at a disadvantage in games.

 

[jpiniero]

Isn't the full fat 8 P-cores + 16 E-cores die the only true RPL die? If so will it find a way into mobile? As what model? Everything else necessarily has to be rebranded ADL dies.

I imagine there will be HX using the 8+16 Raptor Cove die but I was also expecting the U/P 6+8 die to also be using it too. Guess not.

 

[nicalandia]

Isn't the full fat 8 P-cores + 16 E-cores die the only true RPL die? If so will it find a way into mobile? As what model? Everything else necessarily has to be rebranded ADL dies.

Just the 13900T will have Raptor Lake Cores, the rest are rebranded ADL

 

[tamz_msc]

Comparing RPL and Zen 4 pricing:

7950X ($699) -> 13900K ($660)
7900X ($549) -> 13700K ($450)
7700X ($399) -> 13600K ($330)
7600X ($299) -> 13500? ($269?)

I think the top and bottom of the range, Intel is offering products at a smaller price, but I think the value will still be in AMD's corner (I'm obviously assuming performance, we'll see after actual reviews). The middle of the stack though, I think the 13700K and 13600K will offer better overall value than the 7900X and 7700X. The question in terms of market response will be in gaming performance, IMO. We've already seen that the 7600X keeps pretty close to a 12900K on average in gaming. If, say, the 13600K falls back a little bit, I think a good amount of people will go for the 7600X despite the significantly higher productivity performance of the 13600K.

Now, in this price range, I think the vast majority of people will be GPU limited anyway, but that usually doesn't seem to matter. People don't seem to think in those terms when they see the review benchmarks showing a difference between CPUs that they'd never see in real life with their mid-tier GPUs when they turn up the settings as high as they can and become GPU bottlenecked. Either way, it's nice that both companies now have competitive offerings. Hopefully the competition leads to lower prices sooner than later.

AMD also has Alder Lake to contend with. It's not as clear-cut as a direct comparison at the corresponding price points between Zen 4 and 13th gen. The 12700K is now $399 and the 7700X cannot reliably beat it in gaming or productivity, despite costing the same.

 

[Asterox]

Comparing RPL and Zen 4 pricing:

7950X ($699) -> 13900K ($660)
7900X ($549) -> 13700K ($450)
7700X ($399) -> 13600K ($330)
7600X ($299) -> 13500? ($269?)

I think the top and bottom of the range, Intel is offering products at a smaller price, but I think the value will still be in AMD's corner (I'm obviously assuming performance, we'll see after actual reviews). The middle of the stack though, I think the 13700K and 13600K will offer better overall value than the 7900X and 7700X. The question in terms of market response will be in gaming performance, IMO. We've already seen that the 7600X keeps pretty close to a 12900K on average in gaming. If, say, the 13600K falls back a little bit, I think a good amount of people will go for the 7600X despite the significantly higher productivity performance of the 13600K.

Now, in this price range, I think the vast majority of people will be GPU limited anyway, but that usually doesn't seem to matter. People don't seem to think in those terms when they see the review benchmarks showing a difference between CPUs that they'd never see in real life with their mid-tier GPUs when they turn up the settings as high as they can and become GPU bottlenecked. Either way, it's nice that both companies now have competitive offerings. Hopefully the competition leads to lower prices sooner than later.

Raptor Lake must be cheeper, "even Intel now that+couple of other unimportant little things".

- Intel 1700 socket is dead, in future no more new CPU-s

- i9 terribly high power consumption(300W+)in a situation where the CPU is loaded 100%

An interesting table, we can forecast how much power i9 13900K will consume in gaming.

AMD Ryzen 7000 im Test: So schnell sind 7950X und 7700X: Leistungsaufnahme und Effizienz

Ryzen 9 7950X & Ryzen 7 7700X im Test: Leistungsaufnahme und Effizienz / TDP und PPT steigen deutlich

www.computerbase.de

 

[Hitman928]

re cheap

The 7900X is shaping out to be a very Powerful CPU, beating the 12900K and 13700K in ST and MT performance

Gigabyte Technology Co., Ltd. X670E AORUS MASTER vs Z690 Steel Legend WiFi 6E - Geekbench

View attachment 68217

That's why I said value and not performance for the 13700K.

AMD also has Alder Lake to contend with. It's not as clear-cut as a direct comparison at the corresponding price points between Zen 4 and 13th gen. The 12700K is now $399 and the 7700X cannot reliably beat it in gaming or productivity, despite costing the same.

Is it expected that Intel will keep producing Alder Lake SKUs that compete against Raptor Lake ones? I would find this a strange strategy.

 

[nicalandia]

The 12700K is now $399 and the 7700X cannot reliably beat it in gaming or productivity, despite costing the same.

The 7700X is actually a pretty good gaming CPU.

 

[eek2121]

AMD also has Alder Lake to contend with. It's not as clear-cut as a direct comparison at the corresponding price points between Zen 4 and 13th gen. The 12700K is now $399 and the 7700X cannot reliably beat it in gaming or productivity, despite costing the same.

erm, what? the 7600x competes with the 12700k (AMD has more wins there than Intel)

 

[moinmoin]

Is it expected that Intel will keep producing Alder Lake SKUs that compete against Raptor Lake ones? I would find this a strange strategy.

Especially in the cases where the new SKU is just a rebranded old one.

 

[eek2121]

Especially in the cases where the new SKU is just a rebranded old one.

Raptor Lake itself is a minor refresh.

I am interested to see a core to core latency chart. It seems like adding more ring stops will make things worse. Has intel had this many in a desktop chip before?

 

[tamz_msc]

erm, what? the 7600x competes with the 12700k (AMD has more wins there than Intel)

As per AT the 7600X loses in most of the important multithreaded benchmarks against the 12700K.

 

[nicalandia]

As per AT the 7600X loses in most of the important multithreaded benchmarks against the 12700K.

But it's pretty good at gaming, right up there with the best of em...! even with DDR5 6400 RAM the little 7600X beats the 12700K

 

[eek2121]

As per AT the 7600X loses in most of the important multithreaded benchmarks against the 12700K.

You are making the argument that the 7700x doesn't compete. Looking at those benchmarks for the 7600X, one can comfortably say you are wrong. The 7600X wins nearly all the gaming benchmarks and many of the others.

This is a bad spot for Intel to be in because of the specs of the 13700k.

EDIT: Just a small reminder that Raptor Lake is on the same node, and clock per clock, Gracemont has no IPC improvement, Raptor Cove has low single digit IPC improvements. Intel is bumping up the clocks and adding additional cores. There is very little in terms of power management improvements, instead Intel is going to try to sell 'unlimited' mode and other nonsense. Reviewers were giving AMD a hard time about the higher power limits but wait until Raptor Lake hits. Intel wants you to run your CPU at 350W. It is sad to me as a technology enthusiast that Intel cannot seem to correct the ship. Somehow, they ended up right back in "Pentium 4 mode" or "Pentium 3 1ghz" mode. They focus on pushing the silicon until it runs hot, consumes a ton of power, and runs fast rather than focusing on improving perf/watt every generation. A lot of folks think the 8 extra e-Cores will somehow make the chip magically more efficient, but it won't. The chip will likely be marginally more efficient than the 12900k, but it won't come close to the efficiency of the 5950x or even Zen 4.

Maybe next year Meteor Lake will turn things around.

 

[tamz_msc]

But it's pretty good at gaming, right up there with the best of em...! even with DDR5 6400 RAM the little 7600X beats the 12700K

AT gaming benchmarks are a joke. Everybody here knows it. But that was not your original point. Your original point was that the 12700K is beaten by the 7600X as per AT. You know it to be false.

 

[jpiniero]

Is it expected that Intel will keep producing Alder Lake SKUs that compete against Raptor Lake ones? I would find this a strange strategy.

In terms of 13th Gen, it doesn't look like there will be overlap.

 

[tamz_msc]

You are making the argument that the 7700x doesn't compete. Looking at those benchmarks for the 7600X, one can comfortably say you are wrong. The 7600X wins nearly all the gaming benchmarks and many of the others.

This is a bad spot for Intel to be in because of the specs of the 13700k.

Yes it - the 7700X - competes with the 12700K at $399. I would not give much credence to AT's gaming benchmarks. And no, the 7600X does not beat the 12700K in productivity.

 

[coercitiv]

I am interested to see a core to core latency chart. It seems like adding more ring stops will make things worse. Has intel had this many in a desktop chip before?

I'm interested too, but AFAIK Raptor Lake can now sustain higher ring bus speeds when E-cores are enabled, which should help alleviate part of the problem. Further fine-tuning is also on the table. So far we only have this leak from Raichu regarding improved inter-core latency. Looks like good news.

One thing to note about the ring bus: it is no longer the old design from the Skylake era. Intel updated the ring bus with Tiger Lake, and used it in ADL as well. Following quotes are from Anandtech reviews:

It is worth noting that the Tiger Lake SoC has doubled up to support a dual-ring bi-directional interconnect which allows for 2x32 B/cycle in either direction. This helps the memory controllers to feed the cores as well as the graphics, so we should see some uplift in performance on memory-limited scenarios. One question to ask Intel is why have they gone for a dual ring design, rather than simply making a single ring double-wide – the answer is likely related to sleep state power, if one ring can be put to sleep as required. The trade off to that would be related to control and die area, however.

The Alder Lake processor retains the dual-bandwidth ring we saw implemented in Tiger Lake, enabling 1000 GB/s of bandwidth. We learned from asking Intel in our Q&A that this ring is fully enabled regardless of whether the P-cores or E-cores are being used – Intel can disable one of the two rings when less bandwidth is needed, which would save power, however based on previous testing this single ring could end up drawing substantial power compared to the E-cores in low power operation. (This may be true in the mobile processors as well, which would have knock on effects for mobile battery life.)

 

[nicalandia]

AT gaming benchmarks are a joke.

Why do you discredit Anandtech gaming review? It's a valid benchmark

Look how the little 7600X beat the entire ADL line at gaming on 480P

It's over 50% performance boost over the 12700K

 

[Spicedaddy]

Price is better than expected, will be upgrading 12900K to 13900K most likely. Hopefully the extra cache makes a difference in MSFS.